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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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Old
10-17-2012, 04:29 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
NFL players can be cut loose from their contracts at any time, right in the middle of it, and get jack.

If the NHL wants to do that, to get extra money, nahh they wouldn't
Keeps the players honest, to skate and play as hard as they can...and not float!

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10-17-2012, 04:31 PM
  #552
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The NHLPA is not going to reject it outright. This is a negotiation. This is what Fehr was brought here to do. He has something to work OFF of now, and will come back to the NHL with what they think is fair. You go from there, no different from how it works when selling/buying a house.

Negotiating is an art. Fehr is a master at this. He is not hired to bite off his nose to spite his face, aka lose an entire season and destroy the brand further + players not getting paid.
The NHLPA will come back with a counter. Fully agree.

Fehr has had quite a bit of experience in negotiations. Spot on.

Is he the "master"? I'm not sure. I only knew of Fehr after handling the baseball negotiations. His reputation was made in a sport that would cost the owners dearly if the games weren't played. The owners had substantial skin in the game. I'm not sure that more than half the Hockey owners wish to play the season under the old rules? Thus much less pressure than BB.

My bet is that the players are confident the the "old pro" will get them a great deal and therefore will stick together much longer than the old regime. I suspect that the owners will recognize this fact at the point that they understand that they need a deal or they must cancel the season. Unfortunately, the players won't be in a much better position as they will need to accept a deal or suffer the loss of the entire season. Thus I'm left with a very late Dec to mid Jan camp.

The irony is that the confidence in Fehr is what leads to a very late start if at all.

Often wrong. Never in doubt.

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10-17-2012, 04:33 PM
  #553
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Salary can now be kept in trades, so they can dish Redden to a cap floor team, and there will be teams who need to get to the cap floor. the NYR should be able to hold onto 3 mil a year of the 5 mil per Redden makes on the last 2 years of his contract.

The team in question with poor finances gets a 6.5 mil cap hit for 2 million dollars in real salary. Shouldn't be impossible to pull off. I'm sure Wade would waive his NTC to play NHL hockey again as well.
The proposal has the team trading the player both retaining the salary and the cap hit.

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10-17-2012, 04:37 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
NFL players can be cut loose from their contracts at any time, right in the middle of it, and get jack.

If the NHL wants to do that, to get extra money, nahh they wouldn't
They get a signing bonus for that very purpose. It is inaccurate to say they don't get anything.

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10-17-2012, 05:51 PM
  #555
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It doesn't have to be the owners or the players faults. It's economics.

If an owner doesn't want to pay ridiculous contracts to players, he has few options. He could ice a poor team, or get really lucky with drafting. Or they could collude.
Agreed. The agents are involved too. Its noones "fault," its just a bunch of conflicting personalities getting together and doing their job. Thats how markets are made.

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10-17-2012, 05:54 PM
  #556
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Agreed. The agents are involved too. Its noones "fault," its just a bunch of conflicting personalities getting together and doing their job. Thats how markets are made.
By the same token though, it is not as if those players were "demanding" those contracts. You don't hear too much in the press/media about huge contract disputes or when free agency starts, players demand x amount of dollars and years.

If Leopold didn't print that absurd contract for Parise and Suter, some owner would have because the owners have been the reckless ones. RB has been posting it constantly, we are here and the proposed cba from the league is to restrict the owners that can't control themselves. The owners agreed to the previous cba and then those same "owners" per say were the ones finding the loopholes to hand out egregious contracts.

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10-17-2012, 06:07 PM
  #557
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By the same token though, it is not as if those players were "demanding" those contracts. You don't hear too much in the press/media about huge contract disputes or when free agency starts, players demand x amount of dollars and years.

If Leopold didn't print that absurd contract for Parise and Suter, some owner would have because the owners have been the reckless ones. RB has been posting it constantly, we are here and the proposed cba from the league is to restrict the owners that can't control themselves. The owners agreed to the previous cba and then those same "owners" per say were the ones finding the loopholes to hand out egregious contracts.
No one knows what the players are "demanding" though. Players most likely give a range that they'd accept based on comparable players. One team gives a bid, the player then tells other teams what that bid was and it goes up and up. If that player's salary is higher than his peers in the same comparable range, then it drives the price for those players up in the future. It has nothing to do with recklessness. Unless every team in the league decided that they wouldn't pay that player what he wanted, but that wouldn't happen because teams want to put the best team that they can on the ice, then salaries are set the market and the rules that are in place governing that market.

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10-17-2012, 06:26 PM
  #558
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Meeting at 1pm tomorrow in Toronto -- Hopefully we get some news in the afternoon then.

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10-17-2012, 06:40 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
By the same token though, it is not as if those players were "demanding" those contracts. You don't hear too much in the press/media about huge contract disputes or when free agency starts, players demand x amount of dollars and years.

If Leopold didn't print that absurd contract for Parise and Suter, some owner would have because the owners have been the reckless ones. RB has been posting it constantly, we are here and the proposed cba from the league is to restrict the owners that can't control themselves. The owners agreed to the previous cba and then those same "owners" per say were the ones finding the loopholes to hand out egregious contracts.
Why did you put owners in quotes? Are you implying they aren't actually owners?

When a player gets to free agency, the owners are competing against each other. They'll do what they can to improve their team. They would rather pay as little as possible, but they do what they need to. They are individually rational, but as a group irrational.

It seems like a paradox to many fans, but it really isn't. When the owners stop competing with each other, they are breaking the law.

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10-17-2012, 07:23 PM
  #560
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Maybe Guerin and Modano.

Quote:
adater ‏@adater
Talked to a few former NHL players today. Vast majority think current players have fair offer on table.

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10-17-2012, 07:36 PM
  #561
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Maybe Guerin and Modano.
Lafleur, too.

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10-17-2012, 07:53 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Why did you put owners in quotes? Are you implying they aren't actually owners?

When a player gets to free agency, the owners are competing against each other. They'll do what they can to improve their team. They would rather pay as little as possible, but they do what they need to. They are individually rational, but as a group irrational.

It seems like a paradox to many fans, but it really isn't. When the owners stop competing with each other, they are breaking the law.
Sorry, I should have explained that. I put owners in quotation marks because I really just did not have the time to do the research if the same owners are around from the last lockout. Many are but their have been some new ones over the last 8 years. That's all I was getting at, which was the majority of the owners have been around for both lockouts and that those same owners who got everything in the last lockout, were the ones who found the loopholes to handout the absurd contract terms.

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Old
10-17-2012, 08:47 PM
  #563
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Maybe Guerin and Modano.
...

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Old
10-17-2012, 09:32 PM
  #564
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Per Ron Fournier on 98,5FM in Montreal who takes the info from Martin Maguire who is covering the PA meeting...

- Counter-offer tomorrow is official.
- Thought to be 52-48, 51-49, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50
- Players reject the "Make Whole" thing, want full contract value paid.
- Players want HRR as it was in last CBA

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10-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
Per Ron Fournier on 98,5FM in Montreal who takes the info from Martin Maguire who is covering the PA meeting...

- Counter-offer tomorrow is official.
- Thought to be 52-48, 51-49, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50
- Players reject the "Make Whole" thing, want full contract value paid.
- Players want HRR as it was in last CBA
Of course the devil's in the details, but...

Eminently reasonable counter proposal. Shave half a point off the first year, compromise such that the make-whole can come in on top of "regular" salaries, lengthen max contract length to 7 years (and get rid of the Redden rule! ) and call it a deal.

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10-17-2012, 09:48 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
Per Ron Fournier on 98,5FM in Montreal who takes the info from Martin Maguire who is covering the PA meeting...

- Counter-offer tomorrow is official.
- Thought to be 52-48, 51-49, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50
- Players reject the "Make Whole" thing, want full contract value paid.
- Players want HRR as it was in last CBA
my view, I'm stunned but....If that's the case ... The deal is just about done.

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10-17-2012, 09:55 PM
  #567
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my view, I'm stunned but....If that's the case ... The deal is just about done.
Pretty much. If that's the offer, I can't see how they don't work out a deal in the next week or so. Only thing missing that's key is revenue sharing. NHL's deal had it at $200 million while NHLPA wanted $240 million. Every other issue such as contracts is minor IMO and can be worked out quickly.

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Old
10-17-2012, 10:19 PM
  #568
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Pretty much. If that's the offer, I can't see how they don't work out a deal in the next week or so. Only thing missing that's key is revenue sharing. NHL's deal had it at $200 million while NHLPA wanted $240 million. Every other issue such as contracts is minor IMO and can be worked out quickly.
Like RB has been saying about revenue sharing, they can meet in the middle, around $220M.

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10-17-2012, 10:21 PM
  #569
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same guy on the business of hockey board just posted this

Originally Posted by Phil Parent
Sorry to burst the bubble that I helped inflate but apparently that wasn't info from the meeting, more of a prediction by Ron.The players haven't leaked anything from their offer.

But they did air an interview with Mathieu Darche. He said that the offer was "Less Bad" than the first one but never said the word "Better", he also said it was "steps towards us".

He said that the owners made no concessions in this last offer because it was only better than their first offer, and worse than the last CBA. Said that after giving so much last time, the players do not want to give up much today otherwise the owners will keep coming back to the well every CBA negociation.

On whether or not the last offer would be used as basis for their own offer, Darche said "We see the numbers differently".

He said that they wanted the league to respect the current contracts. He also said that 50/50 was a "small" detail and that many things were a part of it.

He said that "escrow and rollback are the same thing for us"

He also said that "if the owners can lock us out and take back our salaries, we can go on strike and ask for a raise"

Finally, there will be many players in attendance in the meeting tomorrow, expected to be there are Toews, Stamkos and Crosby, amongst others.

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10-17-2012, 10:28 PM
  #570
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I have a feeling the immediate reduction is a sticking point for both sides. The NHL knew it was huge to the union and they stuck that jerky provision in.

Is it lost on anyone else that we've lost over a season of hockey to have the same system implemented? Even based on league projections, the ceiling and floor will pass last year in a short time. How did this solve any problems? Will the bottom teams have that much more relief? I think it enforces the sentiment that this cba was a money grab.

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10-17-2012, 11:07 PM
  #571
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I have a feeling the immediate reduction is a sticking point for both sides. The NHL knew it was huge to the union and they stuck that jerky provision in.

Is it lost on anyone else that we've lost over a season of hockey to have the same system implemented? Even based on league projections, the ceiling and floor will pass last year in a short time. How did this solve any problems? Will the bottom teams have that much more relief? I think it enforces the sentiment that this cba was a money grab.
The 'make whole' thing was really dumb. At first I thought it was a good idea but really it's the owners trying to pull a fast one and confuse the players into not realizing its a rollback. And we all know that these talks need more reasons for the players to not trust the owners lol

On 2nd point that is why we are in the 3rd lockout and will have a 4th in 6 years. The solution is to just rollback a system that 'doesn't work' a few years and pretend it does work.

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10-17-2012, 11:31 PM
  #572
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Why did you put owners in quotes? Are you implying they aren't actually owners?

When a player gets to free agency, the owners are competing against each other. They'll do what they can to improve their team. They would rather pay as little as possible, but they do what they need to. They are individually rational, but as a group irrational.

It seems like a paradox to many fans, but it really isn't. When the owners stop competing with each other, they are breaking the law.
Bingo.

So in order to prevent the salaries from going up, up, up, the rules under the CBA need to change.

So it's not the owner's fault.

If anything, it's the player's fault for not acquiesing to more stringent salary control.

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10-17-2012, 11:33 PM
  #573
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He said that the owners made no concessions in this last offer because it was only better than their first offer, and worse than the last CBA. Said that after giving so much last time, the players do not want to give up much today otherwise the owners will keep coming back to the well every CBA negociation.
If the players are under the deluded impression that they don't have to give up anything because they gave up something last time, then I would send the NHLPA packing and get replacement players.

They'd come crawling back.

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10-18-2012, 01:21 AM
  #574
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If the players are under the deluded impression that they don't have to give up anything because they gave up something last time, then I would send the NHLPA packing and get replacement players.

They'd come crawling back.
But the players INITIAL offer included massive give-backs...

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10-18-2012, 01:37 AM
  #575
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My Opinion - A deal will be reached. Maybe not this weekend, but a deal will be reached soon. I'd be surprised if the lockout isn't over by this time next week.

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