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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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Old
10-18-2012, 06:09 AM
  #576
RangerBoy
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Many of the players thought it is a fair offer and something the PA can negotiate off of to reach a deal. Those Chicago guys are the most militant group of players in the NHL. Montador and Toews. Orpik is another one. Fehr's job is to minimize the damage and get a deal done. The owners will be falling all over themselves throwing money at the players as soon as the ink is dry. Owners can't help themselves.

Montador and Toews need to shut up. Toews was 16 years old in the last lockout. He has a high school education and he is from Manitoba. He needs to keep quiet. Toews is making the players look like greedy crybaby players. Management wins labor battles. Minimize the damage. The players will still make their money.

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10-18-2012, 06:21 AM
  #577
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Some clarifications from what I've written earlier, SPC's in the AHL will not count against the players share but only the player's team's cap...

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10-18-2012, 06:24 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Some clarifications from what I've written earlier, SPC's in the AHL will not count against the players share but only the player's team's cap...
Any SPCs, both 1-way and 2-way?

So, who for the Rangers? Redden?

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10-18-2012, 06:29 AM
  #579
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Something from Kevin Westgarth.

Quote:
Helene Elliott ‏@helenenothelen
Caught up with Kings' Kevin Westgarth (@kwesty19). he said owners' offer was "a good starting point to begin honest negotiations. Wish we had this reasonable proposal 3 months ago. That said, it is high time to get this deal done and we will be meeting with the owners tomorrow (more Westgarth) and we hope to present our offer, which will address the league's ongoing problems while continuing to make major dollar concessions to help the owners and the game." End of Westgarth quote. The enforcers are always eloquent.

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10-18-2012, 06:38 AM
  #580
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NHL offer: Salaries of minor-league players on NHL contracts above $105,000 counted against the cap. Prevents clubs from dumping a cap hit.
https://twitter.com/drosennhl/status/258577469207101442

NHL contracts can be 1 way or 2 way.

$105,000 was the threshold for a player on a two way contract requiring re-entry waivers. The NHL is proposing that $105,000 be used to determine which players in the AHL count against the cap. The CBA didn't have the $105,000 number when the CBA was signed. They added it later when teams wouldn't recall players because they didn't want to lose them on re-entry.

Not all the players making more than $105,000 are cap dumps. Kris Newbury is a veteran guy on a young team. He is making $300,000 AHL. He won't get $300,000 AHL in the future. Players like Newbury won't get more than $105,000. The Rangers have a few guys like Newbury and Segal who will count against the cap because they make more than $105,000. Older guys. Have families. Haley has a 2 way this season-$300,000AHL/$600,000NHL. Haley has a $600,000 one way next season. The Rangers have $1.75M tied up in those 3 SPCs playing in the AHL on their cap. Those guys aren't cap dumps.

Cap on minor league salaries. Cap within a cap.

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10-18-2012, 06:51 AM
  #581
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If you were a union rep, would you accept this deal? I feel like this deal is unfair and I hope so much that the players will accept (because frankly, I want to watch hockey.) But if I'm Fehr, I would reject this current deal.

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10-18-2012, 07:01 AM
  #582
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Originally Posted by arunnair87 View Post
If you were a union rep, would you accept this deal? I feel like this deal is unfair and I hope so much that the players will accept (because frankly, I want to watch hockey.) But if I'm Fehr, I would reject this current deal.
They're making a counter proposal.

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10-18-2012, 07:09 AM
  #583
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Why don't they calculate revenue sharing by net HRR rather than gross revenues. Obviously if for arguments sake the Stars and the Rangers both have the same gross revenues then the Stars bottom line is going to be better because the cost of doing business is cheaper in Dallas than NY.....so why should they be responsible for the same amount of revenue sharing?

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10-18-2012, 07:42 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
If an owner doesn't want to pay ridiculous contracts to players, he has few options. He could ice a poor team, or get really lucky with drafting. Or they could collude.
That is life. And that is business. Business is not designed to be "fair". Teams with better ideas and better cash flows are better. Period. If Nashville cannot afford the Webber deal, then do not sign it. Signing a deal adn then attempting to change it is not a good faith negotiation.

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10-18-2012, 07:42 AM
  #585
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I try not to get my hopes up, but I'm getting very excited thinking that we could have hockey in a few weeks.

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10-18-2012, 07:49 AM
  #586
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The top 10 teams will be responsible for at least 1/2 of the $200M in revenue sharing. Its not $10M per team because the Rangers paid more than $10M in revenue sharing. $14M-$16M was the max contribution in 2005 CBA. It was $150M in 05 CBA. It will probably be more than $200M. PA is at $240M. $220M splits the difference. So the Rangers will pay more into revenue sharing and then not have the ability to shed Redden's contract in an amnesty/compliance buyout. So they fork over $20M of their money and then get punished for Redden. Really now? Compliance/amnesty buyouts.

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10-18-2012, 07:50 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
If the players are under the deluded impression that they don't have to give up anything because they gave up something last time, then I would send the NHLPA packing and get replacement players.

They'd come crawling back.
That will never happen. First of all, even the hardest of the hardcore fans would stay away. I know that I would not bother.

Second of all, I do not believe that there would be an ease of finding scabs for an NHL game.

Lastly, Fehr would LOVE for the owners to try that. Baseball owners did. Fehr got the courts involved, and the owners were forced to send the replacement players packing and open camps with the real players.

Fehr is no dummy. He is not here for that. Bettman is not going to outsmart him. Fehr has the players drinking the kool aide. Even if it means missing a season. And frankly, IMO, even if it means missing two.

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10-18-2012, 07:53 AM
  #588
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The PA will counter. The NHL will respond. There will be a deal done. Some more ying and yang.

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10-18-2012, 07:53 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
My Opinion - A deal will be reached. Maybe not this weekend, but a deal will be reached soon. I'd be surprised if the lockout isn't over by this time next week.
Based on your own thoughts or have you heard anything? ( not sure if you still have contacts in the business)

I'm cautiously optimistic but want to see what the players offer and how that's received. There are enough sticking points in the owners proposal that it feels like the whole thing could fall apart if both sides aren't willing to be flexible

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10-18-2012, 08:04 AM
  #590
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The PA will counter. The NHL will respond. There will be a deal done. Some more ying and yang.
Today's D-Day. If the players counter with something that is based off the owners proposal, even if it is one-sided heavily for the players, then they have a chance to get something done. If it is based off their (the players) last proposal, then forget it.

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10-18-2012, 08:08 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by arunnair87 View Post
If you were a union rep, would you accept this deal? I feel like this deal is unfair and I hope so much that the players will accept (because frankly, I want to watch hockey.) But if I'm Fehr, I would reject this current deal.
That is because you can separate your emotions from your brain. Most people in internet-world can't do such a thing. They see "50-50" an think the players should just accept the offer. They want to see the season get started and take the attitude of, "well, the players are still making a lot of money...." From an emotional side, I hope they reach a deal this afternoon. However, from a business standpoint, I can't see the players accepting the current deal, nor do I think they should.

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10-18-2012, 08:10 AM
  #592
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its gonna end up what most of us thought before the season even ended, a lockout and hockey resumes in mid to late november.

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:23 AM
  #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Many of the players thought it is a fair offer and something the PA can negotiate off of to reach a deal. Those Chicago guys are the most militant group of players in the NHL. Montador and Toews. Orpik is another one. Fehr's job is to minimize the damage and get a deal done. The owners will be falling all over themselves throwing money at the players as soon as the ink is dry. Owners can't help themselves.

Montador and Toews need to shut up. Toews was 16 years old in the last lockout. He has a high school education and he is from Manitoba. He needs to keep quiet. Toews is making the players look like greedy crybaby players. Management wins labor battles. Minimize the damage. The players will still make their money.
This just made me laugh a little

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:28 AM
  #594
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Why doesn't the league just threaten to contract teams if something doesn't get done? Nothing would make the union **** their pants quicker than the threat of losing jobs.

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10-18-2012, 08:36 AM
  #595
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my fear is that if the nhlpa counter involves anything beyond tweaking the numbers of the nhl's proposal the league will immediately reject it claiming that the players didn't respond to the offer that was made...

we have to hope that there truly is pressure on bettman to salvage a season and the proposal wasn't just a pr move.

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10-18-2012, 08:39 AM
  #596
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a good point made by kevin allen (usa today)...fehr claims that the players will lose $1.6 bil over 6 years under the owners deal. but they will lose $1.8 bil right now if the season is canceled (plus more later when a deal is finally reached).

so at what point is sticking to your principles not worth it anymore? and the smart move becomes to just try to argue down to trim some of that $1.6 bil and then cut your losses.

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10-18-2012, 08:48 AM
  #597
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Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
Why doesn't the league just threaten to contract teams if something doesn't get done? Nothing would make the union **** their pants quicker than the threat of losing jobs.
Cuz the "league" is actually a collection of team owners and I'm pretty damn sure the owners aren't hankering to lose their teams?

Seriously now people put a little ******* thought into things

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:51 AM
  #598
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
a good point made by kevin allen (usa today)...fehr claims that the players will lose $1.6 bil over 6 years under the owners deal. but they will lose $1.8 bil right now if the season is canceled (plus more later when a deal is finally reached).

so at what point is sticking to your principles not worth it anymore? and the smart move becomes to just try to argue down to trim some of that $1.6 bil and then cut your losses.
Same argument I'm sure can be made for the league. How much are the owners willing to lose this year to save a few bucks in the future?

Borth parties lose out if the lockout lasts all year and both parties want to get a deal done asap, but knowing that the other party has the same incentives to settle this, they aren't just going to cave.

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10-18-2012, 08:58 AM
  #599
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Minimize the damage. The game will grow. The players will make more money than ever have. Even with 50-50. Players want to gradually get to 50-50. Owners want it in one shot. The players aren't saying no way we will take 50-50. Escrow will hurt them. NHL says they will guarantee that money is returned to them in deferred dollars. PA says future players will be paying those players. Round and round.

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10-18-2012, 09:05 AM
  #600
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It sounds as if the main sticking point from players point of view is current contract values.
If the league came back and said "we will pay every penny of all existing contracts" yet still stuck with the 50/50 split (which does not seem to be a big issue from NHLPA point of view) wouldn't that basically kill 100+ NHLPA members who currently are not under contract and severely curtail contract values going forward?

Escrow allows teams to spend more than they otherwise would be able to if we were dealing in absolute numbers in theory right?

Owners could head in 2013-14 off a lousy revenue year this season due to lockout and decide to use 2012-13 number as a baseline for salary cap. Max cap for next season is $50m. Since all contracts must be 100% guaranteed, there would be virtually nothing left for UFAs and RFAs which would artifically depress those contract values.

Am I over simplifying or missing something here?

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