If Fedorov had stuck around, I'd rank him higher than Lidstrom, I think.
I can only rank Yzerman ahead of Lidstrom with the semantics of 'greatest' Red Wings of all-time. Yzerman meant more to the franchise, but Lidstrom was definitely the better hockey player. Best Red Wing hockey players of all-time include not only Howe and Lidstrom, but Kelly, Sawchuk and Lindsay as better players.
Have trouble seeing Fedorov in that group, even if he stayed - he's more in the Delvecchio, Abel crowd than the Howe/Lidstrom/Sawchuk crowd.
If Fedorov had stuck around, I'd rank him higher than Lidstrom, I think.
If Fedorov had stuck around these rankings would be a much more heated debate. He and Mario Lemieux are the most talented players I have ever seen personally.
1.) Steve Yzerman
2.) Gordie Howe
3.) Nicklas Lidstrom
4.) Alex Delvecchio
5.) Ted Lindsay
6.) Sergei Fedorov
Those guys I am pretty sure of then we get into a lot of interesting debates, I lean towards Red Kelly before Terry Sawchuk to be honest.
It's amazing to me how Gordie Howe gets underrated by Detroit fans.
Howe has 6 Art Rosses to Yzerman's 0, He has 6 Harts to Yzerman's 1 Pearson, He finished top 5 in points **20** seasons in a row (Gretzky did it 16 times and Yzerman did it 3 times).
Howe also led the Wings to 4 Cups and finished number one in playoff scoring 5 times in his career.
Gordie Howe is arguably the greatest hockey player of all-time ---- based on not only his offensive dominance and amazingly extended career, but his dedication to two-way play and propensity to be the baddest MF'er on the ice.
It's amazing to me how Gordie Howe gets underrated by Detroit fans.
Howe has 6 Art Rosses to Yzerman's 0, He has 6 Harts to Yzerman's 1 Pearson, He finished top 5 in points **20** seasons in a row (Gretzky did it 16 times and Yzerman did it 3 times).
Howe also led the Wings to 4 Cups and finished number one in playoff scoring 5 times in his career.
Gordie Howe is arguably the greatest hockey player of all-time ---- based on not only his offensive dominance and amazingly extended career, but his dedication to two-way play and propensity to be the baddest MF'er on the ice.
I know who Gordie Howe is, but this is a Red Wings question for me. The Captain is the Red Wings for me. He never suited up for anyone else. It is the same reason I put Delvecchio ahead of Lindsay.
Fedorov has a Hart trophy to Yzerman's zero are you going to give him the nod over Stevie? Playing at your peak with a peak Gretzky and peak Mario Lemieux is going to leave holes in your trophy room.
I have no problem with people voting Howe first, I just have an opinion on who the greatest Red Wing is and since the poll didn't tell us which way to look at this, those are my answers. By the way if we go on pure talent, I vote Fedorov, now that should really make you angry.
1.) Steve Yzerman
2.) Gordie Howe
3.) Nicklas Lidstrom
4.) Alex Delvecchio
5.) Ted Lindsay
6.) Sergei Fedorov
Those guys I am pretty sure of then we get into a lot of interesting debates, I lean towards Red Kelly before Terry Sawchuk to be honest.
imo, howe cannot be anything but 1st.
until the 3 cups, which were won primarily b/c of great depth, yzerman was generally grouped with players like marcel dionne, dale hawerchuk, peter stastny and denis savard. but howe was widely considered the greatest player in history until orr and then gretzky.
i would have lindsay above delvecchio. lindsay was a bigger star, whereas delvecchio was sort of like ron francis. delvecchio was a great player, but was secondary to howe and lindsay (and later, often to norm ullman).
before howe became a superstar in '51, ted lindsay had won the art ross, and also led the NHL in goals ('48) and assists ('50). lindsay was also the dynasty's leader on the ice.
the waiting period for HHOF was also waived for ted lindsay, even though he had many enemies b/c of the union and his dirty style of play. the hockey news named their top 100 players about 15 years ago, and it is not definitive, but lindsay was 21st and delvecchio 82nd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck
It's amazing to me how Gordie Howe gets underrated by Detroit fans.
Howe has 6 Art Rosses to Yzerman's 0, He has 6 Harts to Yzerman's 1 Pearson, He finished top 5 in points **20** seasons in a row (Gretzky did it 16 times and Yzerman did it 3 times).
Howe also led the Wings to 4 Cups and finished number one in playoff scoring 5 times in his career.
Gordie Howe is arguably the greatest hockey player of all-time ---- based on not only his offensive dominance and amazingly extended career, but his dedication to two-way play and propensity to be the baddest MF'er on the ice.
howe actually led the playoffs in scoring 6 times ('49, '52, '55, '61, '63, '64). gretzky also did it 6 times. phil esposito and guy lafleur are next at 3 times, and then many players at 2 times.
howe also won WHA MVP in '74.
another stark comparison:
yzerman got at least 1 vote for hart in 11 seasons (not just 1st place votes. i am including 5th place votes). gordie howe was a hart finalist in 11 seasons.
for example, this counts yzerman's 2 5th place votes in '98 (yzerman had 69p, +3, and was outside the top 20 in scoring).
but howe was not a hart finalist in '54, even though he scored 21% more points than any other player.
i don't think howe has a good argument for best player ever, but i agree that howe is being underrated. howe has a general reputation as a overpowering brute, but he was also very skilled.
in a 1968 article about science and hockey, popular mechanics published measurements of some NHL players' shooting speed, skating speed, reaction time, etc.
howe was measured as the most accurate passer, and also one of the faster skaters and one of the hardest shooters (the shooting measurements were ridiculously high, but the rankings should still be meaningful). howe was 38 or 39 years old. gilbert perreault mentioned gordie howe (after jean beliveau and dickie moore) as stickhandlers he admired.
i have seen only a little of howe, and none from his peak, but his passing stood out more than anything.
I know who Gordie Howe is, but this is a Red Wings question for me. The Captain is the Red Wings for me. He never suited up for anyone else. It is the same reason I put Delvecchio ahead of Lindsay.
Fedorov has a Hart trophy to Yzerman's zero are you going to give him the nod over Stevie? Playing at your peak with a peak Gretzky and peak Mario Lemieux is going to leave holes in your trophy room.
I have no problem with people voting Howe first, I just have an opinion on who the greatest Red Wing is and since the poll didn't tell us which way to look at this, those are my answers. By the way if we go on pure talent, I vote Fedorov, now that should really make you angry.
Ted Lindsay was traded away by Jack Adams as punishment for starting a players' union. That should not hurt his standing.
Relative to their peers at the time, I think Howe is the greater NHLer, but given their individual stories in Detroit, Yzerman is the greater Red Wing.
I don't buy this "Howe is under-rated by Wings fans" though. He's most frequently thought of as the best player to ever play for Detroit, he literally can't be ranked any higher. On the other hand, it's always interesting how over-rated players of past generations in general are. If NHL hockey today were suddenly replaced with hockey from the 50s/60s, people would claw their eyes out.
If I ranked players I've actually seen, the list would start like this:
1. Steve Yzerman
2. Nicklas Lidstrom
3. Sergei Fedorov
4. Brendan Shanahan
5. Pavel Datsyuk
6. Henrik Zetterberg
etc.
Which just doesn't make sense....
i would put datsyuk and zetterberg above shanahan, especially if we ignore shanahan's time in STL, hartford, NJD and NYR.
datsyuk and zetterberg were more important to the post lockout teams than shanahan was from '97-'06. datsyuk and zetterberg were well above shanahan defensively, and scored more in both regular season and playoffs.
zetterberg and datsyuk were better in '08 than shanahan was at any time here.
shanahan: 633p, +144 in 716 games; 74p, +26 in 106 playoff games
datsyuk: 718p, +208 in 732 games; 94p, +32 in 126 playoff games
zetterberg: 624p, +144 in 668 games; 102p, +38 in 109 playoff games
i would put datsyuk and zetterberg above shanahan, especially if we ignore shanahan's time in STL, hartford, NJD and NYR.
datsyuk and zetterberg were more important to the post lockout teams than shanahan was from '97-'06. datsyuk and zetterberg were well above shanahan defensively, and scored more in both regular season and playoffs.
zetterberg and datsyuk were better in '08 than shanahan was at any time here.
shanahan: 633p, +144 in 716 games; 74p, +26 in 106 playoff games
datsyuk: 718p, +208 in 732 games; 94p, +32 in 126 playoff games
zetterberg: 624p, +144 in 668 games; 102p, +38 in 109 playoff games
True, as influential as Shanahan was when he was in Detroit, this team would be lost without Z or D. But it is close when you look at the big picture.
Relative to their peers at the time, I think Howe is the greater NHLer, but given their individual stories in Detroit, Yzerman is the greater Red Wing.
This is really what it comes down to. No one can reasonably argue that Yzerman was a better hockey player than Howe, but as far as the "greatest Red Wing", I think that goes to Yzerman easily.
This poll always just depends on how individual voters interpret the question.
True, as influential as Shanahan was when he was in Detroit, this team would be lost without Z or D. But it is close when you look at the big picture.
What big picture? The one where Shanny is the 4th best player on those teams? He might be even only the 6th at best, if you prefer Vlady/Chelios and Vernon/Osgood/Hasek.
Dastyuk and Zetterberg where at their peak 4th/5th best players in the entire league. Both were a lot more important than Shanny ever was and it's not really that close.
I can only rank Yzerman ahead of Lidstrom with the semantics of 'greatest' Red Wings of all-time. Yzerman meant more to the franchise, but Lidstrom was definitely the better hockey player. Best Red Wing hockey players of all-time include not only Howe and Lidstrom, but Kelly, Sawchuk and Lindsay as better players.
Have trouble seeing Fedorov in that group, even if he stayed - he's more in the Delvecchio, Abel crowd than the Howe/Lidstrom/Sawchuk crowd.
We disagree.
I believe Yzerman was a better player and more crucial to this team's success.
I believe Fedorov was also better than Lidstrom, but give it to Lids based on time served.
I'd also put Feds over Delvechh and the old guys.
It's really hard to compare eras...for me. I never say Ted Lindsay. I'm going totally on stats and written reports...
What big picture? The one where Shanny is the 4th best player on those teams? He might be even only the 6th at best, if you prefer Vlady/Chelios and Vernon/Osgood/Hasek.
Dastyuk and Zetterberg where at their peak 4th/5th best players in the entire league. Both were a lot more important than Shanny ever was and it's not really that close.
I can't think of anyone who'd rank Ozzie or Vernon or even Red Wings-era Chelios over Shanny,
Hasek was here one year.
There's a big 4 from the 90s and early 00s
Yzerman/Fedorov/Lidstrom/Shanny -- In that order, IMO.
But I think Shanny deserves full marks.
Still, I might rank him below Zetterberg and Datsyuk, who were able to win a cup with much less talent around them.
I can't think of anyone who'd rank Ozzie or Vernon or even Red Wings-era Chelios over Shanny,
Hasek was here one year.
There's a big 4 from the 90s and early 00s
Yzerman/Fedorov/Lidstrom/Shanny -- In that order, IMO.
But I think Shanny deserves full marks.
Still, I might rank him below Zetterberg and Datsyuk, who were able to win a cup with much less talent around them.
Yes, Shanny was the 4th best player over that 90s and early 00s period. But at any given year he might have been only 5th or 6th. You tell me who was more important during those wins... 3rd best forward, #1 goalie or #2 dman. It's really not that obvious.
We disagree. I believe Yzerman was a better player and more crucial to this team's success.
I believe Fedorov was also better than Lidstrom, but give it to Lids based on time served.
Care to explain how Yzerman was better player than Lidstrom?
Lidstrom was clearly the best defenseman in the league for almost 10 years. Plus, you have several years when he was top3/top5. He was the best player in the entire 00 decade. In the end Lidstrom is considered as a top5 dman of all-time by pretty much everyone. Some even rank him just below Orr.
Yzerman was a great player who peaked at a very high level. But Lidstrom just stayed too good for too long. Oh... would you consider that Joe Sakic was also better than Lidstrom?
Care to explain how Yzerman was better player than Lidstrom?
Lidstrom was clearly the best defenseman in the league for almost 10 years. Plus, you have several years when he was top3/top5. He was the best player in the entire 00 decade. In the end Lidstrom is considered as a top5 dman of all-time by pretty much everyone. Some even rank him just below Orr.
Yzerman was a great player who peaked at a very high level. But Lidstrom just stayed too good for too long. Oh... would you consider that Joe Sakic was also better than Lidstrom?
Agree. We don't win those four cups without Lidstrom on the back end. Yzerman and Howe were surrounded by great talent. Howe was the catalyst as was Lidstrom.
OK, but...The Norris is voted on by the 'Professional hockey writers association'. He missed out on two or three before he started winning because "he didn't hit enough". I believe he would have more than Orr if it wasn't for the old boys network in the press.
OK, but...The Norris is voted on by the 'Professional hockey writers association'. He missed out on two or three before he started winning because "he didn't hit enough". I believe he would have more than Orr if it wasn't for the old boys network in the press.
I do not think it is crazy to think he could have had 3-4 more ('98, '99, '00, '05, '09).
But he got one or two Norris Trophies he should not of had
I'm sure you think one is '11, but curious what another one might be.
As for '11, no one agrees whether it was Weber or Chara that should have beaten him, top votes were split for those 3. Regardless, Lidstrom led them in points by a healthy margin that year and was voted by the players as the 2nd "toughest defenseman to play against" two-thirds through the season.
The Norris could have gone to any of the 3, and no one was "robbed"... Like Lidstrom was in '98.
Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 10-21-2012 at 09:57 AM.
