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Edmonton Eskimos (IV): playoffs @ Toronto next week; Tillman fired

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10-20-2012, 12:49 AM
  #126
Kyle McMahon
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Well, not sure who "we" refers to, but it sure as hell isn't me. I don't care if we had Warren Moon at QB, I'd still want a run-heavy offense.

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10-20-2012, 12:49 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post

But I've said it before, it doesn't matter who's in at QB. The stats I posted above are plain as day. When we run 16 times, we win the game without exception. When we don't, we lose 90% of the time. Any person in this forum is capable of winning as the OC with this knowledge. Crandell is probably aware as well, but would rather lose than allow a non-QB to be the reason for the win.
Absolutely agree. This game is on the coaching and offense. As is 6-7 losses this season.

I honestly don't understand the mindset going through our offensive personnel right now. We were seeing Kerry Joseph throw into an area with 5 lions to our 1 guy. And it wasn't ****ing working, so what do we do? We go back to it. Again. And again. And again.

We were lucky Joseph wasn't picked off 3-5 times tonight. I'm not sure if it's being stubborn or some sort of ego problem, but this coach staff, and more specifically the offensive side of it has been the down fall of this seasons Eskimos. A strong D and a good running game should make any team into a good team. Even if their QB situation is inadequate. Yet for some god awful reason we choose to lean on our QB more than we need to.

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10-20-2012, 12:50 AM
  #128
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Ray goes 27/35, 350+ yards, 4 TD's.

Can't get it done at his age.

Kerry Joseph goes 6/24, sacked 7 times, a pick and a TD that should have been a pick.

"DAMMIT LOOK HOW HAPPY HE IS WHEN JYLES IS ON THE FIELD! WHAT A GREAT TEAM PLAYER! DID YOU SEE HOW HARD HE THREW THE BALL????"

... right.

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10-20-2012, 12:56 AM
  #129
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Esks were 11-7 last year.

Had a home playoff game that they won against Calgary no less.

This year?

We're 7-9.

The only major change?

Ricky Ray traded for a backup QB, a 1st round pick who may or may not ever come here, and a kicker.


Last edited by Oilbleeder: 10-20-2012 at 01:40 AM.
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Old
10-20-2012, 01:02 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
Absolutely agree. This game is on the coaching and offense. As is 6-7 losses this season.

I honestly don't understand the mindset going through our offensive personnel right now. We were seeing Kerry Joseph throw into an area with 5 lions to our 1 guy. And it wasn't ****ing working, so what do we do? We go back to it. Again. And again. And again.

We were lucky Joseph wasn't picked off 3-5 times tonight. I'm not sure if it's being stubborn or some sort of ego problem, but this coach staff, and more specifically the offensive side of it has been the down fall of this seasons Eskimos. A strong D and a good running game should make any team into a good team. Even if their QB situation is inadequate. Yet for some god awful reason we choose to lean on our QB more than we need to.
Yep. We've seen lots of average or worse QB's post winning seasons because they had a strong running game. And we've seen great QB's fail in pass-happy offenses.

The mentality seems to be that the run is old and boring while the passing game is the be all and end all. It's affected both the CFL and NFL. Most coaches simply don't get it though. The biggest problem is that so many former QBs are calling plays or are head coaches, and feel that the game must be won or lost by the QB.

It's pretty funny to see the competent but unspectacular Ben Roethlisberger with two Super Bowls to his name thanks to a team that runs the ball and plays defense, while arguably the two greatest passers of all time in Manning and Brady have just one ring between them over that same span. But don't tell anyone that ground and pound is more effective than an air show!

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Old
10-20-2012, 01:18 AM
  #131
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But I thought we needed to tray Ray to create room for a QB of the future who would be more exciting and dynamic?!

The problems with this team start the very top... cut out the cancer and see what happens to the rest of it.
The team was actually worse before Tillman was hired.

Pretty sure we had Ricky Ray then too.

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10-20-2012, 01:19 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
So lets review here:

Eskimos record when handing off 16 or more times: 6-0

Eskimos record when handing off 15 or fewer times: 1-9

Is it really this simple? Yes, it is. Crandell is just that stupid.
You are going to run more with the lead and you are going to pass more when you are behind. Those numbers are hardly shocking and dont really indicate anything.

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10-20-2012, 01:23 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
The team was actually worse before Tillman was hired.

Pretty sure we had Ricky Ray then too.
#1) Were we worse? 2008 - 10-8, 2009 - 9-9, 2010 - 7-11, 2011 - 11-7, 2012 - 7-9

Looks more like the same to me.

Not that being a better GM than Danny Maciocia shouldn't be an accomplishment.

#2) Name one reason this team stepped backwards from the 11-7 team besides giving away a HOF QB for a bag of peanuts?

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10-20-2012, 01:24 AM
  #134
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Absolutely agree. This game is on the coaching and offense. As is 6-7 losses this season.

I honestly don't understand the mindset going through our offensive personnel right now. We were seeing Kerry Joseph throw into an area with 5 lions to our 1 guy. And it wasn't ****ing working, so what do we do? We go back to it. Again. And again. And again.

We were lucky Joseph wasn't picked off 3-5 times tonight. I'm not sure if it's being stubborn or some sort of ego problem, but this coach staff, and more specifically the offensive side of it has been the down fall of this seasons Eskimos. A strong D and a good running game should make any team into a good team. Even if their QB situation is inadequate. Yet for some god awful reason we choose to lean on our QB more than we need to.
I totally agree. This loss is not on KJ but the play calling. The lions showed their game plan right from the JC interception; throw everything at em. But did the ESKs adjust, no; they just stuck to the game plan. No running game , no sweeps, no draws, no screens. We just kept trying the hail marys. We must have the most unimagitive play book in the league.

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10-20-2012, 01:24 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You are going to run more with the lead and you are going to pass more when you are behind. Those numbers are hardly shocking and dont really indicate anything.
I think this exact line is EXTREMELY understated more often than not.

That said, Charles had 4 rushing attempts through one half... which was a bigger number than Joseph had completions.

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10-20-2012, 01:25 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Esks were 11-7 last year.

Had a home playoff game that they won against Calgary no less.

This year?

We're 7-9.

The only major change?

Ricky Ray traded for a backup QB, a 1st round pick who may or may not ever come here, and a kicker.
But you know what? Lets extend those stats I posted on the previous page back to last year:

16+ handoffs in a game: 15-1

15- handoffs in a game: 3-15

I'm the most pro-run the ball person in here, and even I didn't expect it to be THAT lopsided. Over the past two seasons, games are very clearly won and lost by running or not running the ball. As weak as the QB play has been most of this season, it's a total red herring when looking for the root cause of wins and losses. We've had 4 different QBs start games the last two seasons, but the data above really isn't influenced by who's under center by the looks of it. Run and win, pass and lose. It really couldn't be any clearer.


Last edited by Oilbleeder: 10-20-2012 at 01:45 AM.
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Old
10-20-2012, 01:26 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatriate View Post
I totally agree. This loss is not on KJ but the play calling. The lions showed their game plan right from the JC interception; throw everything at em. But did the ESKs adjust, no; they just stuck to the game plan. No running game , no sweeps, no draws, no screens. We just kept trying the hail marys. We must have the most unimagitive play book in the league.
Yes, because KJ can only throw to the primary receiver.

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10-20-2012, 01:27 AM
  #138
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But you know what? Lets extend those stats I posted on the previous page back to last year:

16+ handoffs in a game: 15-1

15- handoffs in a game: 3-15

I'm the most pro-run the ball person in here, and even I didn't expect it to be THAT lopsided. Over the past two seasons, games are very clearly won and lost by running or not running the ball. As weak as the QB play has been most of this season, it's a total red herring when looking for the root cause of wins and losses. We've had 4 different QBs start games the last two seasons, but the data above really isn't influenced by who's under center by the looks of it. Run and win, pass and lose. It really couldn't be any clearer.
I love running the ball too. Became a Ravens fan largely because of Ray Lewis (stopping it) and Jamal Lewis (getting after it).

That said... you need to remember that those stats are always skewed at the end of the game.

I don't disagree we got away from it tonight. I don't disagree that hasn't happened CONSISTENTLY here since about 2003.

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10-20-2012, 01:29 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You are going to run more with the lead and you are going to pass more when you are behind. Those numbers are hardly shocking and dont really indicate anything.
Yet several times this season, we've come out and run less than 5 times in the first half. I'm sure we've had multiple instances of Charles getting 1 or fewer carries in the opening quarter. Tonight for instance. We weren't losing games, or at least not by any significant margin, during the first quarter or half of most games. This isn't a case of us abandoning the run after falling behind, we abandon it in the warm-up.

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10-20-2012, 01:32 AM
  #140
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Yet several times this season, we've come out and run less than 5 times in the first half. I'm sure we've had multiple instances of Charles getting 1 or fewer carries in the opening quarter. Tonight for instance. We weren't losing games, or at least not by any significant margin, during the first quarter or half of most games. This isn't a case of us abandoning the run after falling behind, we abandon it in the warm-up.
A good counter for this is that our run game is ****ing awful. Charles is lagging in a ton of stats, and it's largely because he can't run in between the tackles.

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10-20-2012, 01:40 AM
  #141
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I love running the ball too. Became a Ravens fan largely because of Ray Lewis (stopping it) and Jamal Lewis (getting after it).

That said... you need to remember that those stats are always skewed at the end of the game.

I don't disagree we got away from it tonight. I don't disagree that hasn't happened CONSISTENTLY here since about 2003.
In some cases yes, but does this apply to the Eskimos recently based on what we've witnessed? I don't think it does. In almost every game where we had a dozen or fewer carries it's because we never even tried to establish the run from the get-go, not because we had to abandon it in the 4th quarter when losing.

Another thing to remember is that you can't run down a clock in the CFL simply by running for minimal gains like you can in the NFL. You need 1st downs to run clock in the CFL, so if you're accomplishing that via the ground game it's because your back is picking up good chunks of yardage and you're having what would be termed success on the ground, regardless of game situation. Stuffing it up the gut for 2 yards twice then punting is only going to kill a minute, so there's seldom garbage carries that just inflate rush attempts at the end of games in the CFL.

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10-20-2012, 01:41 AM
  #142
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#1) Were we worse? 2008 - 10-8, 2009 - 9-9, 2010 - 7-11, 2011 - 11-7, 2012 - 7-9

Looks more like the same to me.

Not that being a better GM than Danny Maciocia shouldn't be an accomplishment.

#2) Name one reason this team stepped backwards from the 11-7 team besides giving away a HOF QB for a bag of peanuts?
They were worse with Maciocia than they are with Tillman. I didnt see you blathering on and on about how bad we were then either.

Funny that.

Ray wasnt the answer and getting rid of him was the right thing to do. We werent winning with him, simple as that. The problem was with who they decided to replace him with, not getting rid of him in the first place.

And if you are going to heap praise on Ray for the difference in our records last year vs this year then you better do the same with Tillman for the difference in our record last year vs the year before.

If you refuse to do that then your argument has zero credibility.

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10-20-2012, 01:44 AM
  #143
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They were worse with Maciocia than they are with Tillman. I didnt see you blathering on and on about how bad we were then either.

Funny that.

Ray wasnt the answer and getting rid of him was the right thing to do. We werent winning with him, simple as that. The problem was with who they decided to replace him with, not getting rid of him in the first place.

And if you are going to heap praise on Ray for the difference in our records last year vs this year then you better do the same with Tillman for the difference in our record last year vs the year before.

If you refuse to do that then your argument has zero credibility.
I ripped DM consistently. Feel free to check my post history.

You can argue getting rid of him was the right thing. I'd disagree, but there's an argument.

You can't argue his return. You can't argue the Stamps, publicly shopping an older and inferior QB, didn't somehow get more.

Why would I do the same for Tillman? It holds water, because most of the difference makers had nothing to do with ET. His big bring in were his American Tackles, Kerry Joseph, Hugh Charles (notice a trend here about former RR?). The guys making the big differences last year?

Peach, Sherrit, Howard?

All Hervery finds.

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10-20-2012, 01:45 AM
  #144
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A good counter for this is that our run game is ****ing awful. Charles is lagging in a ton of stats, and it's largely because he can't run in between the tackles.
Yet we stuff him up the gut half the time we do decide to run. Between the tackles running is where we should be using Messam. Just another coaching head-scratcher. I think Messam and Charles had around 80 yards between them on 10 touches tonight....but god forbid we take the ball out of Kerry's hands and make them our primary offensive weapons.

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10-20-2012, 01:46 AM
  #145
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Yet several times this season, we've come out and run less than 5 times in the first half. I'm sure we've had multiple instances of Charles getting 1 or fewer carries in the opening quarter. Tonight for instance. We weren't losing games, or at least not by any significant margin, during the first quarter or half of most games. This isn't a case of us abandoning the run after falling behind, we abandon it in the warm-up.
We were behind the whole first half were we not?

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10-20-2012, 01:52 AM
  #146
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Esks have no confidence in their running game, and I don't know why. Charles is a damn good back, and I was pissed at Miller/Hopson for sending him to you guys for nothing. I can understand abandoning the run if you're down by a lot, but the Eskimos were in the game for the most part. Use the running game and when you have an RB like Charles, play action will work for you.

Running opens the passing game. Rarely does it work the other way.

I was annoyed with the fact that we gave you Charles, but y'know... You guys can keep Tillman!

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10-20-2012, 01:53 AM
  #147
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We were behind the whole first half were we not?
We were leading early thanks to the one and only mistake BC's backup rookie QB made.

That said, you have ****** play calling if it changes because you're down < 7 in the first half.

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10-20-2012, 01:56 AM
  #148
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The Esks do NOT have a good rushing game.

Charles YPC is 9th in the league among RB's.

If it was available, his median runs would be damn shameful. He either hits a homer or is dropped for 1.

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10-20-2012, 02:00 AM
  #149
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We were leading early thanks to the one and only mistake BC's backup rookie QB made.

That said, you have ****** play calling if it changes because you're down < 7 in the first half.
Play calling sucks, so does the coaching and so do the questionable personnel moves.

That said you coming into the thread predictably after losses and going on and on about Tillman this and Ricky Ray that is tired. We get it. You dont like Tillman. You like Ricky Ray.

Btw, the great Ricky Ray and the Toronto Argo's are tied in pts with us, and have scored exactly ONE more point than us this year.

Even with our pathetic Qb's, our stupid coaches and their inept play calling, Tillman's horrible trades, we have scored one less point after 16 games than the great Ricky Ray and the Toronto Argonauts.

Ray is gone. He isnt coming back. Time to move on.

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10-20-2012, 02:05 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Play calling sucks, so does the coaching and so do the questionable personnel moves.

That said you coming into the thread predictably after losses and going on and on about Tillman this and Ricky Ray that is tired. We get it. You dont like Tillman. You like Ricky Ray.

Btw, the great Ricky Ray and the Toronto Argo's are tied in pts with us, and have scored exactly ONE more point than us this year.

Even with our pathetic Qb's, our stupid coaches and their inept play calling, Tillman's horrible trades, we have scored one less point after 16 games than the great Ricky Ray and the Toronto Argonauts.

Ray is gone. He isnt coming back. Time to move on.
.... and how bad was Toronto last year again? We were 11-7 last year. 9-9 at best this year. They were 6-12 this year, 7-11 at worst this year. Pretty clear trend there, no?

I'm making noise until Tillman is fired. Tillman being involved in this organization is far more embarrassing than anything DM ever did. It was a panic hire that has done far more damage than good. No excuses. There are less ***** in seats, there are less W's on the board, and the **** show behind the scenes is insane.

Just as you were allowed to rip on MacTavish after EVERY Oiler loss, I'm certainly allowed to rip on ET. Deal with it.

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