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All Purpose Luongo Trade Discussion (New news) MOD WARNING IN OP

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Old
10-19-2012, 02:25 AM
  #626
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What about MSP for Luo?

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10-19-2012, 02:28 AM
  #627
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MsP?

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10-19-2012, 02:28 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Hemskyfanboy83 View Post
I hate this whole "we aren't going to compete for another 3 years" mentality a lot of Oiler fans seem to have. We have been saying that as a fanbase since we drafted Hall.

At some point we have to make moves to make our roster better now. Luongo would be a very nice fit in Edmonton. Provided that we can move Dubnyk in a seperate deal, I would make a serious offer for him.
Yep, there's something to be said for building a winning environment for a young, core group of players. It's easy to look at the Oiler's group of young players and say they won't be contenders for a number of years, but not many teams can just make the playoffs one year and immediately be a contending team. These players need to start winning sooner than later and adding a goalie such as Roberto would virtually ensure they could be a playoff team as early as next season and once you make it anything can happen.

With that said, my guess is that Gillis would need the Oiler's to offer significantly more than any other team in order to move Luongo to Edmonton(assuming Roberto would even waive that is).

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10-19-2012, 02:33 AM
  #629
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It was mentioned around here that star forwards usually hit their prime in their early 20s while star goalies usually hit their prime in their 30s.
So Crosby and Malkin are now past their primes?

I think the Oilers have something good going so hope they play the percentages for the next few years and not take unnecessary risks. Oilers window OPENS in 3-4 years in my opinion by which time Luongo is 36-37.
If Luongo was 5 years younger it would be a no brainer.

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10-19-2012, 02:34 AM
  #630
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So Crosby and Malkin are now past their primes?

I think the Oilers have something good going so hope they play the percentages for the next few years and not take unnecessary risks. Oilers window OPENS in 3-4 years in my opinion by which time Luongo is 36-37.
If Luongo was 5 years younger it would be a no brainer.
Apparently they are. Also apparently no one would want Crosby either because of his contract

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10-19-2012, 02:35 AM
  #631
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By the time Luongo is hanging up his skates Yakupov may be UFA eligible... Unless they change the UFA rule.

If the Oilers aren't contenders by then, it would mean their current core has not progressed as expected.
I guess the fact hall and eberle signed long term means nothing. And thjis is where I get to point out that the nucks did not get competitive till sedins turned 29. Comments like this reminds me how sill and under educated some poster are when they still say or believe no one wants to play edmonton. Players are seeing what the oilers are doing and can see where they are going. With canuck they are in a win now mode and with nearly nothing on the farm. It will be an edmonton type rebuild in vancouver and I will be making the same comments about the nucks that posters on this site have aimed at the oilers. Starting about a year ago I started copying some comment made towards the oilers. Nucks are in a win now mode and will learn shortly that gillis can not draft. 5 years in and nothing to show for it. The fall off the cliff will be steep for the canucks. So I recommend you might want to stop with the suggestion no one wants to play in edmonton which is the gist of what you just posted

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10-19-2012, 02:43 AM
  #632
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Nucks are in a win now mode and will learn shortly that gillis can not draft. 5 years in and nothing to show for it.
LOL. You're basing this off of what exactly? Gillis' 1st pick, Hodgson, made the NHL and appears to have a bright future, albeit now with a different organization. His 2nd pick, Jordan Schroeder is expected to make the team this upcoming season in a similar role that Hodgson played this past year. No 1st round pick in 2010. Nicklas Jensen, 2011's 1st round pick has progressed very nicely and appears to be close to competing for an NHL roster spot. It's not as if Gillis has been working with lottery picks.

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10-19-2012, 02:52 AM
  #633
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Not sure if this has been brought up before but...most players have a team that they don't play well against...kryptonite of a sort, numbers are close to if not 100%.

Luongo overall in playoffs 32-29 .916 2.53

Luongo against Chicago in playoffs 8-11 .892 3.34 (3 series)

Luongo against rest of league in playoffs 24-18 .926 2.21 (8 series)
Not sure on the odds of facing Chicago if you're a western conference team but as an eastern conference team trying to acquire Luongo I wouldnt be too worried about meeting Chicago in the finals.

a .926 save percentage with a 2.21 gaa career (excluding 1 team) on top of his regular seasons = elite.

FWIW I'd rather keep Luongo and trade Schneider.

Jump the shark...Tough to say he hasn't drafted well when he has averaged one of the worst drafting positions out of any gm. Not to mention opportunity. On a team like the Canucks there is no opportunity for young guys to make immediate impact. It's easy for people to say players like macarthur are 50 point players, or gardiner is a 40 point d-man with more upside, raymond would probably be a 60 point player and bieksa could be a 50 point player on the leafs. Look at how well Selanne and Kariya did on the Avalanche. Your posts have an obvious slant on them, none of which paint a true picture. Don't worry, you're not alone.


Last edited by stonedge: 10-19-2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Old
10-19-2012, 02:56 AM
  #634
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Age: 26 year old Kulemin to a 27 year old Raymond.

Size: This I'll concede as Kulemin is much bigger.

Production: These two are pretty similar in this regard. One down season from Raymond due to a severe back injury makes up the difference.


I don't see much difference between these players. I like Raymond's stick-handling and shot more, and Kulemin makes up the difference with his size. Both are pretty good defensively IMO.
Kulemin isn't pretty good defensively, he's elite defensively. That's what makes him such a great player. Even when he's not putting up points he's still a very useful player that many teams have called and asked about, supposedly. Raymond is a good player but IMO, Kulemin is a much better one. And I'm not sure Raymonds shot is much better, Kulemin has a rocket. I'd hate to deal Kule, definitely a guy you want in the playoffs.

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10-19-2012, 03:01 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
I guess the fact hall and eberle signed long term means nothing. And thjis is where I get to point out that the nucks did not get competitive till sedins turned 29. Comments like this reminds me how sill and under educated some poster are when they still say or believe no one wants to play edmonton. Players are seeing what the oilers are doing and can see where they are going. With canuck they are in a win now mode and with nearly nothing on the farm. It will be an edmonton type rebuild in vancouver and I will be making the same comments about the nucks that posters on this site have aimed at the oilers. Starting about a year ago I started copying some comment made towards the oilers. Nucks are in a win now mode and will learn shortly that gillis can not draft. 5 years in and nothing to show for it. The fall off the cliff will be steep for the canucks. So I recommend you might want to stop with the suggestion no one wants to play in edmonton which is the gist of what you just posted
What are you going on about? The Canucks and Oilers situations are/were completely different. The Sedins were brought up in a winning culture and had the torch passed to them, and have done a great job carrying it. I'm sure they will pass it on when the time comes and the winning will continue.

"Edmonton type rebuild" is complete wishfull thinking on your part.

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Old
10-19-2012, 03:12 AM
  #636
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Kulemin isn't pretty good defensively, he's elite defensively. That's what makes him such a great player. Even when he's not putting up points he's still a very useful player that many teams have called and asked about, supposedly. Raymond is a good player but IMO, Kulemin is a much better one. And I'm not sure Raymonds shot is much better, Kulemin has a rocket. I'd hate to deal Kule, definitely a guy you want in the playoffs.
Is this a serious assertion? Watch Datsyuk play. Watch Toews play. Watch Bergeron play. Watch Kesler play. Watch Hossa, Backes, Zetterberg, Bolland, Mike Richards, etc. Then come back and tell me Kulemin belongs in their tier as far as defensive acumen goes.

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10-19-2012, 03:17 AM
  #637
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Is this a serious assertion? Watch Datsyuk play. Watch Toews play. Watch Bergeron play. Watch Kesler play. Watch Hossa, Backes, Zetterberg, Bolland, Mike Richards, etc. Then come back and tell me Kulemin belongs in their tier as far as defensive acumen goes.
Oh yes, typical response. I watch every team play. Kulemin is on that level. Difference is, he's not on the same offensive production level as them. You need to separate offense and defense. I appreciate the condescending tone though. Maybe you should watch Kulemin then come back and tell me he's not.

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10-19-2012, 03:28 AM
  #638
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Oh yes, typical response. I watch every team play. Kulemin is on that level. Difference is, he's not on the same offensive production level as them. You need to separate offense and defense. I appreciate the condescending tone though. Maybe you should watch Kulemin then come back and tell me he's not.
I do watch Kulemin, and I'm a big fan of his game. That's why I've been pushing to acquire him all throughout this thread. However you'll have to excuse me if I don't see Bob Gainey in his prime when I watch him play.

Sorry for the condescending tone, but 'Elite' has to be one of the most overused words in this forum. Right up there with asinine.

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10-19-2012, 03:35 AM
  #639
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luongo and raymond for colburne franson and ashton or ross

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Old
10-19-2012, 03:41 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Kulemin isn't pretty good defensively, he's elite defensively. That's what makes him such a great player. Even when he's not putting up points he's still a very useful player that many teams have called and asked about, supposedly. Raymond is a good player but IMO, Kulemin is a much better one. And I'm not sure Raymonds shot is much better, Kulemin has a rocket. I'd hate to deal Kule, definitely a guy you want in the playoffs.


I respectfully disagree. I see Raymond as having more tools offensively, not just a better shot (which I still believe, also evidenced by the variation in Kulemin's shooting percentage).



Raymond is also very useful on the PK and transitioning the puck out of the Dzone. I don't know about elite defensively. I will have to do more research on the advanced stats and watch Kulemin more, but as of right now, I don't see that from him.


These two are still very similar players in my eyes.

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10-19-2012, 04:01 AM
  #641
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What are you going on about? The Canucks and Oilers situations are/were completely different. The Sedins were brought up in a winning culture and had the torch passed to them, and have done a great job carrying it. I'm sure they will pass it on when the time comes and the winning will continue.

"Edmonton type rebuild" is complete wishfull thinking on your part.
winning culture?

They were high draft picks for a reason.

It wasn't until the after the last lock out that the Sedins were stopped being called by negative terms.

Getting knocked out in the first round does not create a winning atmosphere

The canucks were built by Nonis and Burke. They late round seals were by them. In about 4 years when the Sedins are 36 or 37 he canucks are going to be looking for their next first line and unless they go out and buy them. Vancouver only had two guys under 25 play 40+ games and you traded one of them. The problem with winning is the fact you get bad draft slots and draft projects hoping they develop.

Cody Hodgson was taken 10th five years ago and you guys tossed him under the bus earler this year.
Jordan Schroeder 22 in 09 and he is one of two first rounders who have not played a game in the NHL
you guys traded your first 4 picks in 2010
Nicklas Jensen in 2011 has gone to the swedish elite league this year and that was the best thing for him

The pro scouting sites I goto list the canucks depth chart in the system as being in the bottom third.

The canucks need to bring in some talent shortly to replace the Sedin as they get old or the Vancouver will suffer the same fate.

Between 1997 and 2006 the oilers drafted between 13 and 17th in the first round and drafted poorly and guess what when their good players left they had nothing left. In 2005 nucks drafted 10th and in 2008 they drafted 10th again--so it is no like the nucks have been running the table every year.

Like the Canucks the oiler DID go to a game 7 Stanley cup final 6 years ago and the floor fell out from under them.

IT was not until the 1990's when Burke/Quinn joined the organization that the organization started to get good for back to back years.

How do you see the canucks line up in 4 years? look at the age of the players who are your core right now

here is something to think about--how many players on the canucks for 60+pts last year? 2 players got 20+ goals

I do not think my prediction that the nucks could go through a oiler type rebuild is that far fetched.

That is one of the reason why I think it is in the best interest with a Luongo trade for Gillis to get players back that will do damage for the team in 2 or 3 years and not right away. You system is not that deep

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10-19-2012, 04:03 AM
  #642
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I respectfully disagree. I see Raymond as having more tools offensively, not just a better shot (which I still believe, also evidenced by the variation in Kulemin's shooting percentage).



Raymond is also very useful on the PK and transitioning the puck out of the Dzone. I don't know about elite defensively. I will have to do more research on the advanced stats and watch Kulemin more, but as of right now, I don't see that from him.


These two are still very similar players in my eyes.
Kulemin is more comparable to Booth. Both of them had one good year then ended up dropping off the face of the planet. The only difference is one is being paid 4.2mil.

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10-19-2012, 04:11 AM
  #643
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Kulemin is more comparable to Booth. Both of them had one good year then ended up dropping off the face of the planet. The only difference is one is being paid 4.2mil.

I don't see that comparison at all. Booth has scored at a top6 rate for the majority of his career (PPG ranks above the top180 forwards in the league) and Booth has often put up 1st line G/60 numbers. This with a lower than usual shooting percentage...


Kulemin is a lot more like Raymond than he is Booth. Booth is much more efficient offensively than either.

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10-19-2012, 04:23 AM
  #644
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I don't see that comparison at all. Booth has scored at a top6 rate for the majority of his career (PPG ranks above the top180 forwards in the league) and Booth has often put up 1st line G/60 numbers. This with a lower than usual shooting percentage...


Kulemin is a lot more like Raymond than he is Booth. Booth is much more efficient offensively than either.
I see both of them as 40-50 point players. I see nothing from Booth that says he is significantly better than Kulemin offensively. Both of them were one year wonders.

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10-19-2012, 04:38 AM
  #645
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So Crosby and Malkin are now past their primes?

I think the Oilers have something good going so hope they play the percentages for the next few years and not take unnecessary risks. Oilers window OPENS in 3-4 years in my opinion by which time Luongo is 36-37.
If Luongo was 5 years younger it would be a no brainer.
Crosby and Malkin both put up their best point totals in their 2nd year in the league (6 and 4 years ago). Ovechkin's best year was his 3rd year (4 years ago).

Look at Gretzky, his best season was when he was 24...he had five seasons over 196 points before the age of 25, and none over 183 after he turned 25.

Lemieux score 199 points at the age of 24, never another over 161 (although his 160 in 60 games at the age of 28 was damn impressive).

Malkin, Ovechkin, and Crosby are 26 and 25. There is a reasonable chance that their best offensive seasons have already happened.

I'm not saying the guys are worthless after the age of 24, I'm just point to a stat that someone else on here showed in much more detail than I did.

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I see both of them as 40-50 point players. I see nothing from Booth that says he is significantly better than Kulemin offensively. Both of them were one year wonders.
I'm not a big Booth fan but he's a "one-year wonder" who's scored over 20 goals three times...Kulemin is the type of one-year wonder who has done it once.

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10-19-2012, 04:44 AM
  #646
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I see both of them as 40-50 point players. I see nothing from Booth that says he is significantly better than Kulemin offensively. Both of them were one year wonders.


Well don't let stats get in the way of a poor argument...


The scoring rate of these two players is distinct. If putting up the same point totals (which I don't see Kulemin doing with any regularity), Booth is far more likely to put up more goals --> And that matters when getting paid.


I'm fine if we agree to disagree. We definitely see these two players differently.

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10-19-2012, 04:52 AM
  #647
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I'm not a big Booth fan but he's a "one-year wonder" who's scored over 20 goals three times...Kulemin is the type of one-year wonder who has done it once.

Exactly right. A low shooting percentage coupled with Booth's ability to keep his G/60 at a 1st line rate makes him a great bet to consistently hit that 20 goal mark. This makes him more valuable as a top6 contributor.



Gillis tracks advanced stats. There has been evidence of this in trades and his interviews. Booth is a player that is valuable via those metrics. Thus, it's no surprise Gillis pursued him IMO.

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10-19-2012, 06:35 AM
  #648
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still wait to see a response to this

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So if Luongo were traded to #Leafs or anyone w/ new CBA and retired before contract ran out (age 43), #Canucks would be on hook for cap hit.
Suddenly Luongo's trade value just went up again.
tell me the difference between

Luongo retires, his Cap Hit is off the books for the Leafs
Luongo retires, his Cap Hit is off the books for the Leafs


The Leafs or Panthers couldn't care less about the Nucks potentially having this Cap Hit

no matter what will happen, his value to the Leafs or Panthers did not go up. VAN will never trade him to the Oilers unless something happens that won't (Trade includes Hall, Eberle, RNH or Yakupov). This won't rise the price up

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10-19-2012, 06:44 AM
  #649
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I hate this whole "we aren't going to compete for another 3 years" mentality a lot of Oiler fans seem to have. We have been saying that as a fanbase since we drafted Hall.

At some point we have to make moves to make our roster better now. Luongo would be a very nice fit in Edmonton. Provided that we can move Dubnyk in a seperate deal, I would make a serious offer for him.

Tambo would be smart to offer up one of MPS/Gagner/Hemsky as a starting point and building a package around that depending on which player Vancouver prefers.
I agree with the start of your post, I just dont think Luongo is the best target. I was a big advocate for example of Edm trying to trade the 1st overall for a reasonably young (under 30) #1 D if possible. Having a top D would have been way better for the team than a 3rd potential franchise winger.

I think theres room to make a big move or two. Move a big piece or two. But I wouldnt target Luongo with his contract. Because even with him, youre still looking for a top D and a 2nd line C, preferably with size. Which is a fairly expensive list. And I actually think Dubnyk has a better chance of becoming a #1 goalie than Schultz has of becoming a #1 D.

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10-19-2012, 07:06 AM
  #650
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Some poster pointed out the Canucks have no kids coming up. Like everything this is partly true, just like claiming the Canucks are in win now mode. In fact the Canucks are in Gillis mode, a Napoleonic era. The little General has determined that no goons shall be employed by the team, so they get beaten on in post season play.

Perhaps posters mean the Canucks are in Regular Season win mode? This, at least, is supportable with evidence. Do you need good drafting if you are intent on finishing first overall? I don't know. I have never seen this strategy played out before. I don't really understand it. I would have said you need to do wonders at the deadline to enhance playoff pretensions, but that is obviously not the Gillis way. Perhaps drafting last is a methodology to take the risk out of drafting? Last pick doesn't carry a lot of cache and nobody trades for it. So expectations are low?

If Gillis wants to improve his draft position going with a goalie that has sixty games of NHL ecperience over a top ten guy is the way to go. He can better his odds by not signing guys like Edler and Salo who cause goals and wins to happen.

By far and away the best way to improve your draft position is to import draft enhancing guys from known great draft positioning teams! This won't be cheap as draft positioning experts like Burke and Tambellini are very wily and protect thier draft successes fiercely.

The best thing for Gillis to do is hire a stale coach, trade away steady goaltending and defence and begin to rely on internet advice.


Last edited by SixthSens: 10-19-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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