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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part V: The "Back to square one" Edition

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10-22-2012, 06:50 PM
  #301
Riche16
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"Animals" is not a word that leaps to mind when thinking about how NHL players are paid/treated.

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10-22-2012, 06:55 PM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
-come on with Ovechkin. Its his second language and he is a passionate person. His vocabulary is lower level, don't confuse that with petulant or spoiled.

-Bettman has dictator powers during the lockout. The owners need a 2/3 majority to over rule his decisions. Based on owners' soundbites, the "unanimous" decision to lockout, the gag order, the first proposal all sound like Bettman choices. Based on history, the latest proposal seems like the owners are at the least voicing their displeasure with the course of the lockout.
Agreed and the way bettman talked after the meeting last week to the media he sounded drained/discouraged/down. You cannot have a record of 3 straight lockouts and stay commissioner (boss). He has to be done soon as the commissioner. The best thing to do would be get the CBA done and hire a new commissioner just before the season starts; a fresh start to a new CBA, new season, new league, new commissioner.

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10-22-2012, 07:12 PM
  #303
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Agreed and the way bettman talked after the meeting last week to the media he sounded drained/discouraged/down. You cannot have a record of 3 straight lockouts and stay commissioner (boss). He has to be done soon as the commissioner. The best thing to do would be get the CBA done and hire a new commissioner just before the season starts; a fresh start to a new CBA, new season, new league, new commissioner.
At the end of the day Bettman is employed by the owners, and by most accounts has been viewed as having "won" a ton of ground for the them over his tenure.

Could I see him being a scapegoat to garner fan support if/when this thing is resolved? Yes. But it's not a lock. If the owners view Bettman's tactics as a necessary evil to get the deal they want he may get a raise.

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10-22-2012, 07:12 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/bruin...medium=twitter

I hope the owners are taking notes of what all of us(fans, players) feel about the commissioner of the NHL, he's a disgrace to the NHL.
Im never one for letting disgraceful comments make the case that someone else is disgraceful.

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10-22-2012, 07:23 PM
  #305
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Im never one for letting disgraceful comments make the case that someone else is disgraceful.
ha, sorry, true comment and analysis of what I said. More to build on that, I have never been a fan of Bettman and never will. I think he has hurt the league more than helped it and someone else in his place could build the game even more than he did, as long as that guy is a likeable guy.

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10-22-2012, 07:50 PM
  #306
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ha, sorry, true comment and analysis of what I said. More to build on that, I have never been a fan of Bettman and never will. I think he has hurt the league more than helped it and someone else in his place could build the game even more than he did, as long as that guy is a likeable guy.
Hes grown league revenues by more than a billion dollars since the last lockout.

Your definition of success or failure for the game is only in the eye of the beholder.

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10-22-2012, 08:00 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Hes grown league revenues by more than a billion dollars since the last lockout.

Your definition of success or failure for the game is only in the eye of the beholder.
i believe a more likeable guy would have been able to grow it even more

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10-22-2012, 08:26 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/bruin...medium=twitter

I hope the owners are taking notes of what all of us(fans, players) feel about the commissioner of the NHL, he's a disgrace to the NHL.
I'm embarrassed to be a fan of a league where the players think they are being treated like animals because the owners want to pay them 1.6 billion dollars instead of 1.8 billion dollars.

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10-22-2012, 08:27 PM
  #309
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interesting. period ended on friday night

This is interesting.

@TEAM1040: RT @louisjean_tva: #NHL GM's'were afforded a 48 hour window this weekend to discuss league proposal with players. (1/2)

@TEAM1040: RT @louisjean_tva: Bill Daly says : "Permitted to answer player questions about the proposal we tabled last week"

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10-22-2012, 08:40 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
At the end of the day Bettman is employed by the owners, and by most accounts has been viewed as having "won" a ton of ground for the them over his tenure.

Could I see him being a scapegoat to garner fan support if/when this thing is resolved? Yes. But it's not a lock. If the owners view Bettman's tactics as a necessary evil to get the deal they want he may get a raise.
I understand your view of Bettman's success, but has there ever been a person that benefited from reinterpretations of history.

knock Bettman and you hear of his repeated wins with CBAs, how he fixed all these issues. Then every lockout you hear how he is saving the sport from the players and out of control salaries. He is immune from blame for problems. He fixes everything hence there are no problems. Which is it? 7 years of self congratulation and 1 year of despair.

It's beating a dead horse but if you ignore it, he'll reign forever. Hey, believe what you want but to me he's a worm. He obliterated the players last time through promises of affordable hockey. Tickets are as bad as salaries. The hockey package is about 50% higher. He tried, I'm sorry - succeeded in fudging ledger books. Now fans buy the "27 teams losing money" bit. Players took in 75% of revenues in 2004, 57% in 2012 and only 3 teams make money? Over 8 years of losses for 90% of the league and it miraculously forges on. No, I take it back. Bettman is the greatest commissioner in professional sports. If he can stack BS that high and still get fans to buy it, to side with billionaires (yes over millionaires) who are wildly successful businessmen who understand accounting and generating losses for tax purposes, yeah he is on his own level.

Just be ready for the same song and dance in 6 years because this new CBA won't address the issues.

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10-22-2012, 08:45 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
I'm embarrassed to be a fan of a league where the players think they are being treated like animals because the owners want to pay them 1.6 billion dollars instead of 1.8 billion dollars.
You do understand a team executive called the players cattle. Under threat of 9 figure fines, during a labor negotiation, a team executive uttered that very sentiment. And you take issue with a foreigner using the term "animal" in his second or more likely his fifth language.

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10-22-2012, 08:48 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
interesting. period ended on friday night

This is interesting.

@TEAM1040: RT @louisjean_tva: #NHL GM's'were afforded a 48 hour window this weekend to discuss league proposal with players. (1/2)

@TEAM1040: RT @louisjean_tva: Bill Daly says : "Permitted to answer player questions about the proposal we tabled last week"
Hmm, lockout, squeeze, undermine union leadership, cancel games. At least Gary is doing it in the fall instead of the spring. Might just save some games this time.

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10-22-2012, 09:11 PM
  #313
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New proposal to end lockout quickly:

New revenue sharing:

48/47/46/45/44/43 for players in exchange for removing Bettman as NHL head.

Reading board the deal is a no brainer.

Players can run him out of town on the rail.

owners can meet him at the edge of town and hoist him on their shoulders.

A win/ win settlement.

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10-22-2012, 09:16 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
I understand your view of Bettman's success, but has there ever been a person that benefited from reinterpretations of history.

knock Bettman and you hear of his repeated wins with CBAs, how he fixed all these issues. Then every lockout you hear how he is saving the sport from the players and out of control salaries. He is immune from blame for problems. He fixes everything hence there are no problems. Which is it? 7 years of self congratulation and 1 year of despair.

It's beating a dead horse but if you ignore it, he'll reign forever. Hey, believe what you want but to me he's a worm. He obliterated the players last time through promises of affordable hockey. Tickets are as bad as salaries. The hockey package is about 50% higher. He tried, I'm sorry - succeeded in fudging ledger books. Now fans buy the "27 teams losing money" bit. Players took in 75% of revenues in 2004, 57% in 2012 and only 3 teams make money? Over 8 years of losses for 90% of the league and it miraculously forges on. No, I take it back. Bettman is the greatest commissioner in professional sports. If he can stack BS that high and still get fans to buy it, to side with billionaires (yes over millionaires) who are wildly successful businessmen who understand accounting and generating losses for tax purposes, yeah he is on his own level.

Just be ready for the same song and dance in 6 years because this new CBA won't address the issues.
I'm not saying I believe in what he's done or like his tactics. I'm saying the owners likely do so I would not expect him to get canned any time soon.

My opinion is that the expansion Bettman led did far more harm than good and that the league would be better served cutting bait. The league-wide profitability issues we're seeing (and with that continually putting cost-control burdens on players) is proof of that.

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10-22-2012, 09:19 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
You do understand a team executive called the players cattle. Under threat of 9 figure fines, during a labor negotiation, a team executive uttered that very sentiment. And you take issue with a foreigner using the term "animal" in his second or more likely his fifth language.
I understand that it was a metaphor and anyone with an understanding of the english language, whether it was his first, second or fifth language, would easily see that he did not mean that the players were actual animals.

Especially when he said "the players, and me included, are the cattle."

He meant employees have no rights to run the business.

It's only offensive if you are a professional victim looking to twist words.

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10-22-2012, 10:37 PM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I'm not saying I believe in what he's done or like his tactics. I'm saying the owners likely do so I would not expect him to get canned any time soon.

My opinion is that the expansion Bettman led did far more harm than good and that the league would be better served cutting bait. The league-wide profitability issues we're seeing (and with that continually putting cost-control burdens on players) is proof of that.
I believe that the modern expansion was the worst thing for this league. Since about 93 the league has grown by 9.

(not in order) Sharks, Senators, Lightning, Ducks, Panthers, Predators, Thrashers, Blue Jackets, Wild.

Others had relocated. Whalers to Carolina, Jets to Phoenix, North Stars to Dallas.

And while some have been successful and some of those markets work, most have not been successful and most of those markets do not work.

One of those expansion teams already relocated. Thrashers to Winnepeg.

That is entirely too much rapid growth, to non-traditional hockey markets. For such a regional niche sport like hockey.

The core issue. Too many teams or too many in markets that are barely supporting their team.

Quebec, Seattle, Toronto metropolitan area, they all want teams. Seattle wants both an NHL and NBA team. Quebec is building an arena. And there are folks who want to purchase a team and put them in the Toronto area.

A couple of candidates for those areas have already nearly exhausted all their efforts to remain in their current markets. Coyotes and Islanders.

Heck, even a traditional great hockey town like Edmonton cant get a new arena built.

Fixing the contract structures is a good way of keeping teams competitively even on the ice. And that goes back to players must sacrifice for the league's long term health. Its just how it has to be.

There needs to be a (better) system of checks against the players and owners.

50/50 split in revenue.

5 year max for external free agents. 7 for internal free agents. 7m per max (Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos players of the league). Something like that. Fixed structures. So the owners cant cut their own wrists and no player can hold an organization hostage.

Allow money to be traded.

Fix ELC structure.

Fix UFA structure.

Fix the whole thing. Make sure this lockout isnt for nothing.

Im not on either side. But the players HAVE TO sacrifice. Plain and simple. Theyll still be paid handsomely. But fair based on their roles. No more Prusts getting huge contracts.

Checks and balances.

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Old
10-23-2012, 06:22 AM
  #317
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I understand that it was a metaphor and anyone with an understanding of the english language, whether it was his first, second or fifth language, would easily see that he did not mean that the players were actual animals.

Especially when he said "the players, and me included, are the cattle."

He meant employees have no rights to run the business.

It's only offensive if you are a professional victim looking to twist words.
So Ovechkin should understand english metaphors, but he can't use them like a Detroit front office executive can? You're offended by Alex's use of the word, but he can't be?

That last line of your post, take a step back and re-read it a few times. If you're still offended by Ovechkin, we'll understand if you never watch hockey again.

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10-23-2012, 06:31 AM
  #318
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I wouldn't deny teams are hurting. But what happens when the cap floor hits $50m under this CBA? If 12k fans show up in Columbus because they still suck and there aren't any stars, can they afford that cap even with a higher revenue cut? I just don't see this as a real solution. All of the numbers generated only deal with collective units: every team vs every player. I want to see how Nashville and Phoenix will fair under Bettman's proposal.

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10-23-2012, 08:24 AM
  #319
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I fail to see how a lock out is a solution to a bunch of teams losing money..

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10-23-2012, 08:31 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
So Ovechkin should understand english metaphors, but he can't use them like a Detroit front office executive can? You're offended by Alex's use of the word, but he can't be?

That last line of your post, take a step back and re-read it a few times. If you're still offended by Ovechkin, we'll understand if you never watch hockey again.
I was just kidding... I'm not actually offended.

Just wanted to stress how dumb players like Ovechkin sound.

FACE

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10-23-2012, 08:43 AM
  #321
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10-23-2012, 08:44 AM
  #322
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When the owners cancel a big chunk (thursday/fri) and maybe the Winter Cl. They'll adjust their proposal to worse than the 50/50 that's out there now. This is going to get ugly.

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10-23-2012, 08:50 AM
  #323
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They'll adjust their proposal to worse than the 50/50 that's out there now.
Once that happens, there is a pretty good chance that Fehr throws the cap back on the table.

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10-23-2012, 08:51 AM
  #324
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Once that happens, there is a pretty good chance that Fehr throws the cap back on the table.
Don't you mean he takes the cap off of the table?

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10-23-2012, 08:58 AM
  #325
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Once that happens, there is a pretty good chance that Fehr throws the cap back on the table.
Luxury tax. Pit the top and bottom teams against the middle. Turn the fighting on to the owners. That's how you subsidize the Phoenix's. Let them sit back and suck at a minimum cost. Fund your team on luxury tax money.

I'm not a proponent of that, but that's a viable option. Pulling the cap off the table will get one, maybe*two owners listening.* It addresses problems better than a new percentage will.

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