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CBA Talk II: Shut up and give me YOUR money!

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11-16-2012, 04:37 AM
  #401
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"We are extremely disappointed in where we and the players find ourselves," deputy commissioner Bill Daly said Thursday evening. "And from our perspective, we have made repeated moves in the players' direction with absolutely no reciprocation. Unfortunately, we have determined we are involved with union leadership that has no genuine interest in reaching an agreement. Regardless of what we propose, or how we suggest to compromise the answer is "no." At some point you just have to say "enough is enough."

This statement is so ridiculous. The only moves the NHL has conceded from was a ludicrous position on a first proposal. They have conceded nothing from the previous CBA. It's one thing to demand a 50/50 split, but then to try to break down so much more of the players rights on top of that is crazy.

I'm not against some of the items the owners want, like a cap on contract length and a fixed growth percentage year over year on term of contract, but really, the owners enemy in all of this is themselves. Everyone suggested they won the last CBA negotiations. What did they do as soon as a cap came in? They tried to find ways to circumvent it. NHL head office could have rejected those contracts long before Kovalchuk's. Any loophole that could be exploited, the owners choose to exploit to screw themselves over again and again. They really are trying to make a foolproof CBA that stops them from hurting themselves. How is any if this the fault if the players? I guarantee that the owners will "win" again this time when the deal is struck, but not over time as we saw this last time around.

3 lockouts during Bettman's tenure, bankrupt franchises, expansion failure in the South...how does this man still have a job? Every year during the last CBA he would come out with a state of the union talking about record growth and the league being the healthiest it has ever been, yet teams are bleeding everywhere and the system is broken. So what is it Gary?

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11-16-2012, 04:46 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
The difference between Bettman and Fehr is that the owners pretty much have direct control over Bettman. They are a smaller group and you can bet that billionaire businessmen are not going to let an employee do things they do not wish for. The PA, on the other hand, has been in shambles since the last lockout, few players have taken an active role in it, and many probably don't have the background to really understand the issues at hand. These conditions make it possible that Fehr is acting against their best interests.

Anyway, it's not really my theory. I was just trying to expand on the argument that Fehr is bent on destroying the league. As I stated, I think a deal gets done by the end of this month, or mid-December at the latest.
Bettman just needs to keep his group of 8 intact, he can crack the whip on the other 22 with threats of fines etc. I don't think either side is acting with ulterior motives or to build a rep among other pro sports, other than doing the best job they can to represent their side's interests. The NHLPA was willing to give back, but the line in the sand was honoring the full dollar value of contracts that were signed. If the deal offered by the NHL didn't include the contracting changes, and was 53% sliding down to 50%, they'd be playing hockey right now.

I think Bettman and Daly are trying to make the CBA idiot-proof on the long term contracts, and wants the players to subsidize the failing markets that make up a majority of the group of 8 by lowering cap hits and taking away bargaining power for RFA's. Bettman has actually had a hard time keeping the owners outside of the group of 8 in line. Bettman was proposing the 5 year limit trial balloon well before Parise and Suter signed long term deals, and before other long term deals were signed as well. The Sens owner recently made comments on sports radio:

http://www.senatorsextra.com/main/nh...ckout-comments

“we should be playing hockey by now. Everybody knows it, and we’re not.”

If the season gets cancelled, and the other 22 owners get fed up and manage to crack the group of 8, Bettman's job would be on the line. It's not just Fehr that would be on the hot seat. The two sides are engaged in a game of chicken, waiting for the other to blink.

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11-16-2012, 12:41 PM
  #403
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great negotiating move by bettman
its hilarious hearing from all these frustrated players. serves them right for proposing the same BS unlinked cap system 5 straight times.

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11-16-2012, 01:08 PM
  #404
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great negotiating move by bettman
its hilarious hearing from all these frustrated players. serves them right for proposing the same BS unlinked cap system 5 straight times.
Don't worry. Bettman will have his victory and win just like last time. We might lose a season, as will the players. He will get his 50/50 and probably shortened contracts and restrictions on year to year. However, he will probably cave to his own stupid owners and implement the ability to trade some cap space or something equally as stupid. The owners and Bettman will find some way to circumvent themselves and it probably won't take more than one or two seasons. So yeah for Gary. Great job on your third lockout!

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11-16-2012, 01:19 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
great negotiating move by bettman
Really? To me this seems like a great big bluff.

If the PA can keep it together over two weeks of silence (all the while telling anyone who will listen how much they would like to be negotiating) and come back to the table with the same resolve that they have now, will ownership have the balls to walk away for another two, three or four weeks and risk the entire season? Or will ownership continue to bend like they have ever since they tabled that laughable proposal in the summer?

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11-16-2012, 01:23 PM
  #406
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He will get his 50/50 and probably shortened contracts and restrictions on year to year.
sounds good to me, too bad we won't get unguaranteed contracts.
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Great job on your third lockout!
you do realise your boy don fehr is on his 6th work stoppage? this guy is more despicable than anybody else in this process.

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11-16-2012, 01:28 PM
  #407
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I'd argue that Bettman is basically just an extension of the owners, but go ahead and argue that he's a rogue vampire if you want to do that - remember though that he is forgoing pay during the lockout.
Is this fact?

I don't remember is saying that.

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11-16-2012, 01:40 PM
  #408
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you do realise your boy don fehr is on his 6th work stoppage? this guy is more despicable than anybody else in this process.
I'm not a fan of any of the principles negotiating this, but Fehr didn't issue a lockout and he didn't decide not to negotiate until the 11th hour. That was your boy Bettman. He is driving the bus here.

I'm sure he will get much of what he wants, but inevitably, it won't result in the perfect deal. When you have to create a CBA that limits your owners because they will do everything in their power to bend the rules and hurt the league, you are destined to fail. And when your office doesn't have the balls to make rulings to keep the integrity of the CBA intact, you will fail as well.

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11-16-2012, 01:55 PM
  #409
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I'm not a fan of any of the principles negotiating this, but Fehr didn't issue a lockout
are you suggesting that they should play a season while negotiating a new CBA? because that's what MLB did and we all know how that ended up (thanks don).

bettman was willing to negotiate throughout last season but was repeatedly snubbed by the PA.
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
I'm sure he will get much of what he wants, but inevitably, it won't result in the perfect deal. When you have to create a CBA that limits your owners because they will do everything in their power to bend the rules and hurt the league, you are destined to fail. And when your office doesn't have the balls to make rulings to keep the integrity of the CBA intact, you will fail as well.
i've gone over this before and i don't feel like repeating myself, but it's pretty much impossible to get a perfect deal, and GM's/owners will do anything to get a competitive advantage.

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11-16-2012, 02:24 PM
  #410
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are you suggesting that they should play a season while negotiating a new CBA? because that's what MLB did and we all know how that ended up (thanks don).

bettman was willing to negotiate throughout last season but was repeatedly snubbed by the PA.

i've gone over this before and i don't feel like repeating myself, but it's pretty much impossible to get a perfect deal, and GM's/owners will do anything to get a competitive advantage.
Yes, I'd rather them play with the old system than not play. Any fan of the game should want that. Posturing and lockouts suck and both parties are to blame.

It isn't just about getting the perfect deal. Bettman needs to actually enforce and maintain whatever deal he strikes. He bows to the owners on the process he is in now and he bows to them when they circumvent it later. Zero spine as a commissioner.

Also, for someone desperate to increase American audience, great job on lockouts after New York, Tampa Bay and Los Angeles win cups. What a leader...no wonder the TV rights in the US suck.

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11-16-2012, 02:28 PM
  #411
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Yes, I'd rather them play with the old system than not play. Any fan of the game should want that. Posturing and lockouts suck and both parties are to blame.
so you would be fine with the looming threats of a strike when the stanley cup playoffs come around? because that's what would happen if they played a season while negotiating a new CBA and i'm pretty sure no fan wants to see that

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11-16-2012, 02:34 PM
  #412
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so you would be fine with the looming threats of a strike when the stanley cup playoffs come around? because that's what would happen if they played a season while negotiating a new CBA and i'm pretty sure no fan wants to see that
I'm pretty sure no fan wants to see a lockout every 7 years either.

You go on an on about a strike, the owners locked the players out, not the other way around.

The 'threat' of a strike, would be much better than a lockout, especially another one, especially another full season lockout.

And people wonder why the NHL isn't followed down south, if I'm NBC I'd full my network with something people will actually watch and know they'll be able to see it every year with no 'surprises'.

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11-16-2012, 02:43 PM
  #413
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I'm pretty sure no fan wants to see a lockout every 7 years either.
i never said they did

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You go on an on about a strike, the owners locked the players out, not the other way around.
i don't think you're understanding my point, this is just NHLPA PR repeated

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The 'threat' of a strike, would be much better than a lockout, especially another one, especially another full season lockout.
i don't think you realize how much of a slimeball fehr is, there would most likely be a strike if the played while negotiating a new CBA. the world series strike is still a huge embarrassment for MLB fans so no a strike is not better than a lockout.

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11-16-2012, 02:51 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
i never said they did


i don't think you're understanding my point, this is just NHLPA PR repeated


i don't think you realize how much of a slimeball fehr is, there would most likely be a strike if the played while negotiating a new CBA. the world series strike is still a huge embarrassment for MLB fans so no a strike is not better than a lockout.
No more slimy than having your owners offer 13 and 14 year contracts and the next day say you want cap salary lengths at 5 years.

Or signing guys to 6 and 7 year deals the day before locking out the players because they system doesn't work.

Or coming up with another CBA that doesn't honour signed contracts.

Pretty slimy.

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11-16-2012, 02:56 PM
  #415
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No more slimy than having your owners offer 13 and 14 year contracts and the next day say you want cap salary lengths at 5 years.

Or signing guys to 6 and 7 year deals the day before locking out the players because they system doesn't work.

Or coming up with another CBA that doesn't honour signed contracts.

Pretty slimy.
the players knew full well that the contracts they were signing were under the previous CBA and were probably subject to changes with the new agreement. and if they didn't than they deserve whatever hardship they get for being so ignorant.

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11-16-2012, 03:08 PM
  #416
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you do realise your boy don fehr is on his 6th work stoppage? this guy is more despicable than anybody else in this process.
Really? I took a look into that and it looks like Fehr took over as the acting director of the MLBPA in 1983 (and then official in 1985). He was there until 2009, and he joined the NHLPA in 2010.
  • 1985 - Strike (2 days, 0 games)
  • 1990 - Lockout (32 days, 0 games), it should be noted that this took place in February and March and did not overlap with any of the MLB regular season.
  • 1994-95 - Strike (232 days, 938 games)
  • 2012 - Lockout (? days, ? games)

Compare that to Bettman:
  • 1994-95 - Lockout (103 days, 468 games)
  • 2004-05 - Lockout (301 days, 1230? games)
  • 2012 - Lockout (? days, ? games)

So unless Fehr was the head of another PA at some point and I missed it, he's got one more work stoppage than Bettman in an extra decade on the job - and of their completed work stoppages Fehr has lost 138 fewer days and 760 fewer games.. and when you consider that Major League Baseball plays twice as many games as the NHL the real discrepancy is even larger.

Of course, all of this is taking your ridiculous assumptions (for example, being involved in a work stoppage is "despicable") for the sake of argument. A thorough, intellectually honest look at the situation would start by dismantling that whole mess, but I really only feel like questioning your math at this point.

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11-16-2012, 03:16 PM
  #417
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Fehr ran up against an opponent who he can't beat.. in fact an opponent who will crush him.

The bottom line is, either Fehr swallows his pride, admits defeat, admits he was brought in to win yet got slaughtered, or there will be no season.

Sad thing is, I don't see Fehr backing down and that is the only way we will see hockey.

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11-16-2012, 03:27 PM
  #418
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Really? I took a look into that and it looks like Fehr took over as the acting director of the MLBPA in 1983 (and then official in 1985). He was there until 2009, and he joined the NHLPA in 2010.
  • 1985 - Strike (2 days, 0 games)
  • 1990 - Lockout (32 days, 0 games), it should be noted that this took place in February and March and did not overlap with any of the MLB regular season.
  • 1994-95 - Strike (232 days, 938 games)
  • 2012 - Lockout (? days, ? games)

Compare that to Bettman:
  • 1994-95 - Lockout (103 days, 468 games)
  • 2004-05 - Lockout (301 days, 1230? games)
  • 2012 - Lockout (? days, ? games)

So unless Fehr was the head of another PA at some point and I missed it, he's got one more work stoppage than Bettman in an extra decade on the job - and of their completed work stoppages Fehr has lost 138 fewer days and 760 fewer games.. and when you consider that Major League Baseball plays twice as many games as the NHL the real discrepancy is even larger.

Of course, all of this is taking your ridiculous assumptions (for example, being involved in a work stoppage is "despicable") for the sake of argument. A thorough, intellectually honest look at the situation would start by dismantling that whole mess, but I really only feel like questioning your math at this point.
Quote:
"With the NHL locking out at midnight on September 15, 2012, Fehr has become the only Executive Director to be directly involved in work stoppages in two sports. Six of the eight contract negotiations he has been involved in have resulted in work stoppages, including five consecutive negotiations between the MLBPA and Major League Baseball."
from wikipedia.
i said he was in 6 work stoppages, nothing i said was wrong.

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11-16-2012, 03:32 PM
  #419
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The more the work stoppage goes on the less I care about saving the season. I couldn't imagine it would get to this point, but it has and now it's not as big of a deal. There is other hockey, I will be here when the NHL comes back.

I hope whenever a deal does get done, the players have to choke extra hard on what's left for them. At this rate, it's not going to be much.

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11-16-2012, 03:42 PM
  #420
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I'd forgive all parties involved if we somehow were given a 58 game schedule, with every team having a home/away with each other, followed by a 20 team playoff. MLB style 1 game to determine which 7/8/9/10th seeds move on.

It would be amazing. Super amazing.

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11-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #421
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from wikipedia.
i said he was in 6 work stoppages, nothing i said was wrong.
Yeah it is, it's just that wikipedia was wrong too. This was wikipedia's source for that claim, and the closest thing there I could find was this:

Quote:
After work stoppages in each of the eight rounds of bargaining between 1972 through 1995, the next round of bargaining, in 2002, brought a contract without a strike or lockout and the same was true for the agreement reached in 2006. That was Fehr's final contract negotiation as executive director and it ensured 16 years of labor peace in baseball.
According to this the stoppages were in 1972, 1973, 1976, 1980, 1981, 1985, 1990, 1994.

Fehr was not executive director of the MLBPA until 1985 (or 1986 according to the MLBPA which means he is responsible for the same number of work stoppages as Bettman).

So I guess you could blame Fehr for the work stoppages in which he was associated to the MLBPA as general counsel, however that is a ridiculous reach and frankly it's tough to take a claim like that seriously.

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11-16-2012, 04:08 PM
  #422
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from wikipedia.
i said he was in 6 work stoppages, nothing i said was wrong.
Sure. Yet Bettman has negotiated 3 CBAs in his tenure and they have all been lockouts. His track record is horrible. How many lockouts did the NHL have prior to Gary?

If you are going to call Fehr dispicable for one strike of a postseason, what is your take on Bettman? He has essentially wiped out close to 2 full years of games during his tenure.

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11-16-2012, 04:21 PM
  #423
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So I guess you could blame Fehr for the work stoppages in which he was associated to the MLBPA as general counsel, however that is a ridiculous reach and frankly it's tough to take a claim like that seriously.
who said i am blaming him? all i said he was involved in 6 work stoppages. you're reading way too far into this

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11-16-2012, 04:23 PM
  #424
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His track record is horrible. How many lockouts did the NHL have prior to Gary?
you do realise this has more to do with alan eagleson being in the owners' pockets than it does with any commissioner right?

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11-16-2012, 04:28 PM
  #425
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you do realise this has more to do with alan eagleson being in the owners' pockets than it does with any commissioner right?
Also before Gary bettman, you could only see hockey on TV on Saturday nights and the odd weeknight game and the internet wasn't even a thing. Totally different ballgame economically.

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