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CBA Talk II: Shut up and give me YOUR money!

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:59 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Yes, and if they give it to them again, the league will ask for it in perpetuity every single time a labour dispute arises. Giving it to them every time is as nonsensical in this situation as it is in basically every labour dispute, short of the very welfare of the business being at stake, which is assuredly not the case right now with the NHL.
...
We saw what happened with the last CBA when the league forgot to cross its t's and dot its i's. These seemingly little provisions, or the lack thereof, can have far-reaching effects. I think both sides know what the consequences of de-linkage will be, which is why both sides are taking such a hard line on this issue and why a deal hasn't yet been brokered.

Fehr knows that there is more than one way to skin a cap, but the league realizes this, too.

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Whens the last time someone offered a good for everyone offer and the offer wasn't negotiated? Yes, it sucks for fans to watch two parties kill off a season to try to get the better of the other. That's just how it works. ...
Yup, rather than being about right or wrong this fight is about two powerful, rich groups fighting over filthy amounts of money. In my view, the owners proposals at least have some benefit for the league in terms of creating a level playing field where all franchises can compete.


Last edited by Chubros: 11-21-2012 at 01:48 AM.
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11-21-2012, 06:44 AM
  #602
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The NHL bullied the PA into an agreement last time around, they were correct that the concept they went for stopped teams from spending NYR type money to try and buy a cup. It was killing the league.

Now they want to fix some things, and one of them is cap circumvention, such as VCR, Minn and a number of teams have done. The problem is that if you leave loopholes teams will find a way to take advantage, hence screwing up the system.

Fehr's attitude seems to be "hey, it your fault, pay up for your mistakes".

It will be interesting to see what the final agreement is. I will be amazed if it doesn't have two main components. Those are linkage and fixing cap circumvention through long term contracts loaded up front.

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11-21-2012, 09:14 AM
  #603
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I still have yet to see a single defense from anyone pro-league of why it's conscionable for the league to demand all of these concessions when the league is making as much money as it is. This isn't a struggling business: it's a thriving one with record growth. If any other business but a professional sports league overseeing year-over-year profits of nearly 8% asked their workers for an enormous wage and rights decrease, they'd be painted as villainous profiteers.

So what's the defense for what the league is asking for?

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11-21-2012, 09:26 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I still have yet to see a single defense from anyone pro-league of why it's conscionable for the league to demand all of these concessions when the league is making as much money as it is. This isn't a struggling business: it's a thriving one with record growth. If any other business but a professional sports league overseeing year-over-year profits of nearly 8% asked their workers for an enormous wage and rights decrease, they'd be painted as villainous profiteers.

So what's the defense for what the league is asking for?


I think the key point here is that despite those revenue increases, there are still teams that operate at a loss. So while the high end is healthy, the low end is not. You can tell this by the inability of teams to remain liquid. LA has been on sale, no takers. The PHX fiasco. CLB loses money etc...



The strength of the league can be directly felt by how soluble each franchise is IMO.



In essence, there is no obvious credibility to the league's stance. However, taken as a whole, you understand why - Gary is fighting for the bottom end right now. He isn't right for doing it, but it is what it is.

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11-21-2012, 09:35 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I still have yet to see a single defense from anyone pro-league of why it's conscionable for the league to demand all of these concessions when the league is making as much money as it is. This isn't a struggling business: it's a thriving one with record growth. If any other business but a professional sports league overseeing year-over-year profits of nearly 8% asked their workers for an enormous wage and rights decrease, they'd be painted as villainous profiteers.

So what's the defense for what the league is asking for?
Agreed...I do think the owners are entitled to a "correction" in the share of revenues but to then add a bunch of other concessions is just dirty pool. There is no incentive for the NHLPA to capitulate to such a one sided, attempted strong-arming. The league wants to fix all their issues on the backs of the players and not accept any responsibility themselves.

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11-21-2012, 10:09 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think the key point here is that despite those revenue increases, there are still teams that operate at a loss. So while the high end is healthy, the low end is not. You can tell this by the inability of teams to remain liquid. LA has been on sale, no takers. The PHX fiasco. CLB loses money etc...



The strength of the league can be directly felt by how soluble each franchise is IMO.



In essence, there is no obvious credibility to the league's stance. However, taken as a whole, you understand why - Gary is fighting for the bottom end right now. He isn't right for doing it, but it is what it is.
This is the opposite of what Gary needs to do to make those teams strong. Instead of focusing on the brand and building momentum, he lets the game go for **** and adds to its irrelevance. There is no clear vision of how to help those teams make money, just an ongoing war with the product.

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11-21-2012, 10:10 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
This is the opposite of what Gary needs to do to make those teams strong. Instead of focusing on the brand and building momentum, he lets the game go for **** and adds to its irrelevance. There is no clear vision of how to help those teams make money, just an ongoing war with the product.


I said that this is what Gary's concerned about. I didn't say he was going about resolving it in the right way...

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11-21-2012, 10:20 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think the key point here is that despite those revenue increases, there are still teams that operate at a loss. So while the high end is healthy, the low end is not. You can tell this by the inability of teams to remain liquid. LA has been on sale, no takers. The PHX fiasco. CLB loses money etc...



The strength of the league can be directly felt by how soluble each franchise is IMO.



In essence, there is no obvious credibility to the league's stance. However, taken as a whole, you understand why - Gary is fighting for the bottom end right now. He isn't right for doing it, but it is what it is.
Of course -- everyone understands this. But the solution is to create revenue sharing that encourages lower teams to keep spending money (which the players like). A mix of giving back some revenue and getting better revenue sharing and probably a wider divide between haves and have nots (just not like you see in MLB) is common sense.

But the league is also asking for a series of contractual rights rollbacks that are completely unnecessary, and the only reason they're doing is so they can "give back" on those issues. Well, giving back something you never had is ridiculous.

Put it this way: it doesn't surprise me they hired Frank Luntz to craft their message, because it's a very Republican™ marketing campaign to wilfully distort facts and hope the message sticks. "Shared sacrifice" when you're sacrificing literally nothing should insult the intelligence of any neutral onlooker.

This would have been over in early October if the league had offered to reduce UFA qualifications, give players better arbitration rights, and had made a few other key concessions.

If Bettman hadn't gone to bat looking for a homerun or nothing, he wouldn't be standing there on strike 13 whining at the ump to give him another pitch.

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11-21-2012, 10:25 AM
  #609
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I said that this is what Gary's concerned about. I didn't say he was going about resolving it in the right way...
I know you didn't. I wish someone in the media would point out that the NHL is throwing money away all the time.

It's a disgrace NHL.com doesn't have some kind of hockey pool or fantasy game, for example.

How about getting your athletes at other big sporting events, Gary? The UFC would be all over some kind of cross promotion imo. Hockey players at fights and fighters at hockey games makes a ton of sense for everyone involved.

Have you guys seen the new UFC production? That's how you make the product look cool and sell it to young people.

The NHL sucks.

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11-21-2012, 10:35 AM
  #610
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Have you guys seen the new UFC production? That's how you make the product look cool and sell it to young people.
I'm guessing Bettman & Co. feel like all you have to do is put a team on the ice and it'll sell itself. We can all see how that strategy worked in non-hockey market teams.....

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11-21-2012, 10:47 AM
  #611
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I'm guessing Bettman & Co. feel like all you have to do is put a team on the ice and it'll sell itself. We can all see how that strategy worked in non-hockey market teams.....
Hockey is a great game but the NHL version isn't all it could be. Players today are more skilled than ever yet the play doesn't reflect that at all. Time to quit weighing the game down with "old school" thinking and catering to "traditionalists". Follow the NFL model, make it as exciting as possible. I'm sure "traditionalists" in football miss the 9-6 defensive battle between the defensive clubs, I'm also sure the average fan, the one paying most of their bills, doesn't miss those games at all.

Hockey can make it in those markets imo, but not with this bozo in charge.

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11-21-2012, 11:05 AM
  #612
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Hockey can make it in those markets imo, but not with this bozo in charge.
Unfortunately it is likely to remain the same. We'll just have to go thru this again in a couple years - B*ttmen's era seems to enjoy having lockouts where the same people will ask the players to bend over and help pay for their own incompetance. Don't blame the owners, they just can't help themselves.....

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11-21-2012, 11:17 AM
  #613
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PA offered the linked HR "soft landing" today for revenue splitting. League has a last chance to step back from the abyss.

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11-21-2012, 11:21 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
PA offered the linked HR "soft landing" today for revenue splitting. League has a last chance to step back from the abyss.

Still about 182 million apart. I wouldn't get my hopes up.

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11-21-2012, 11:31 AM
  #615
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PA offered the linked HR "soft landing" today for revenue splitting. League has a last chance to step back from the abyss.
Can you guys refer me to where you're getting your info on this. My guess is twitter and I don't do twitter, but I'd like to try and stay current.

Thanks.

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11-21-2012, 11:37 AM
  #616
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Can you guys refer me to where you're getting your info on this. My guess is twitter and I don't do twitter, but I'd like to try and stay current.

Thanks.
It's on the TSN front page.

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11-21-2012, 11:46 AM
  #617
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It's on the TSN front page.
Oh thanks.

I had that page up on my browser, but didn't think they would have already known all that.

Cheers

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11-21-2012, 12:01 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I still have yet to see a single defense from anyone pro-league of why it's conscionable for the league to demand all of these concessions when the league is making as much money as it is. This isn't a struggling business: it's a thriving one with record growth. If any other business but a professional sports league overseeing year-over-year profits of nearly 8% asked their workers for an enormous wage and rights decrease, they'd be painted as villainous profiteers.

So what's the defense for what the league is asking for?
Revenue is not profit ,, After the player cuts/bills/taxes/worker pay , etc the owners of NHL in alot of markets are making no profit

The NHL is struggling as a whole

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11-21-2012, 12:04 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Revenue is not profit ,, After the player cuts/bills/taxes/worker pay , etc the owners of NHL in alot of markets are making no profit

The NHL is struggling as a whole
Which markets?

I'd probably guess, you mean markets like Phoenix, Florida, Tampa, Atlat..(whoops), Columbus...right?

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11-21-2012, 12:11 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Revenue is not profit ,, After the player cuts/bills/taxes/worker pay , etc the owners of NHL in alot of markets are making no profit

The NHL is struggling as a whole
The NHL shouldnt be in some of those markets, and some of the markets pleading poverty act in a very irresponsible manner when it comes to spending. These are the NHL's problems, not the players.

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11-21-2012, 12:16 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Revenue is not profit ,, After the player cuts/bills/taxes/worker pay , etc the owners of NHL in alot of markets are making no profit

The NHL is struggling as a whole
Are the values of the franchises increasing? Even though some of them might be operating at a loss - wouldn't a number of these teams owners' still see their equity rising?

And some owners own more than one sports team (eg., Caps owner) where even if the hockey team is operating at a loss - he still comes out ahead as it fills the arena for dates that would otherwise leave it empty.

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11-21-2012, 12:24 PM
  #622
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Still about 182 million apart. I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Isn't that over a multiple year CBA term? If the PA's claim is accurate and we're talking about something like a million per year per team (that's my rough math of a $180m difference over six years for thirty teams, not their claim) and the league can't find a deal in there, then it would be hard to conclude that they don't want to lose the season - or at least another huge chunk of it.

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11-21-2012, 12:35 PM
  #623
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The NHL shouldnt be in some of those markets, and some of the markets pleading poverty act in a very irresponsible manner when it comes to spending. These are the NHL's problems, not the players.
Cue the "....but the CBA FORCES these teams to act this way..." spin.

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11-21-2012, 12:36 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
Isn't that over a multiple year CBA term? If the PA's claim is accurate and we're talking about something like a million per year per team (that's my rough math of a $180m difference over six years for thirty teams, not their claim) and the league can't find a deal in there, then it would be hard to conclude that they don't want to lose the season - or at least another huge chunk of it.


Well it was said that the NHLPA gave up about 60m to get to the 180m gap. If we take that to mean they were 240m apart before, and there's still no season, then I'm not sure _any_ party is really thinking logically here anyways. Both would be trying to throw away the season at this point.

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11-21-2012, 12:38 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Well it was said that the NHLPA gave up about 60m to get to the 180m gap. If we take that to mean they were 240m apart before, and there's still no season, then I'm not sure _any_ party is really thinking logically here anyways. Both would be trying to throw away the season at this point.
In Fehr's interview from this morning on tsn.ca, he said Gary had claimed they were $900+ million apart previously, and Don now claims they are only $182 million apart, the optics sure look like the players have come a long way towards the NHL.

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