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CBA Talk II: Shut up and give me YOUR money!

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Old
11-21-2012, 01:39 PM
  #626
Taelin
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409992

Here's the NHLPA proposal.

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11-21-2012, 01:39 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Well it was said that the NHLPA gave up about 60m to get to the 180m gap. If we take that to mean they were 240m apart before, and there's still no season, then I'm not sure _any_ party is really thinking logically here anyways. Both would be trying to throw away the season at this point.
How much has the NHL given up to get to this point? They may have made all of the offers, but none of them have been very enticing to say the least.

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11-21-2012, 01:41 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
In Fehr's interview from this morning on tsn.ca, he said Gary had claimed they were $900+ million apart previously, and Don now claims they are only $182 million apart, the optics sure look like the players have come a long way towards the NHL.


Who really knows with these two guys at the helm? Let's hope they have come a long way and this season starts somehow.

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11-21-2012, 01:49 PM
  #629
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Aside from the long term cap circumvention contracts, isn't the biggest problem with the CBA the cap floor? Forcing the small market teams to overspend is the biggest issue I see. The floor is a fixed number lower than the cap rather than a percentage. I can see why the players wanted it, but all it has done is force the owners to spend more on second and third tier talent to make the cap, which in turn inflates everyone else. With a league that has such disparity between individual team revenues, forcing this mechanism to create disparity does not work. Unless there is significant revenue sharing, they need to change the floor.

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11-21-2012, 01:57 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Revenue is not profit ,, After the player cuts/bills/taxes/worker pay , etc the owners of NHL in alot of markets are making no profit

The NHL is struggling as a whole
This is just patently inaccurate. In 2004, the Levitt report had NHL revenues at 2 billion and the league losing 274 million while paying 75% of HRR to player costs.

Revenue has grown from 2 billion to 3.3 billion. The players' share has shrunk from 75% to 57%. The math there is pretty simple: the league is making a lot of money, even with wasted nothing franchises like Phoenix losing 20 million with low payroll and making the WCF (that's just bad league management).

People seem to have accepted this inaccurate implication from the NHL. It's false.

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11-21-2012, 02:26 PM
  #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Aside from the long term cap circumvention contracts, isn't the biggest problem with the CBA the cap floor? Forcing the small market teams to overspend is the biggest issue I see. The floor is a fixed number lower than the cap rather than a percentage. I can see why the players wanted it, but all it has done is force the owners to spend more on second and third tier talent to make the cap, which in turn inflates everyone else. With a league that has such disparity between individual team revenues, forcing this mechanism to create disparity does not work. Unless there is significant revenue sharing, they need to change the floor.
I believe in the newest proposal it's is 20% above or below the mid point

So for the 67.25 that is offered for this year mid point would be about 56. So your range would be 44.8 to 67.25 instead of 51.25 to 67.25.

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11-21-2012, 02:27 PM
  #632
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Well, the players claim that they've left guaranteed dollars is less than a half truth. The want their share to never drop below the previous years share. Sounds like they want all the benefit and none of the risk. Both sides are so full of crap.

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11-21-2012, 02:36 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by west in the east View Post
Well, the players claim that they've left guaranteed dollars is less than a half truth. The want their share to never drop below the previous years share. Sounds like they want all the benefit and none of the risk. Both sides are so full of crap.
NHL again makes effort to have a season ,, NHLPA brings nothing to table but ideas that NHL has told them wont fly

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11-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by west in the east View Post
Well, the players claim that they've left guaranteed dollars is less than a half truth. The want their share to never drop below the previous years share. Sounds like they want all the benefit and none of the risk. Both sides are so full of crap.
Employers take the risk in business, not the employees.

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11-21-2012, 02:42 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
NHL again makes effort to have a season ,, NHLPA brings nothing to table but ideas that NHL has told them wont fly
You seriously believe that the NHL has made a sincere effort here? Because if you do believe that I'd love see if you'd be interested in purchasing some beautiful farm land in the Sahara.

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11-21-2012, 02:48 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Employers take the risk in business, not the employees.
That would be a step back from the old CBA and the "partnership" principle the NHLPA espoused last time. Also, there is a lot different between this league and a normal business. For instance, in a normal business, if it loses money employees get laid off. One cannot compare this in the frame of a "normal business".

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11-21-2012, 03:06 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Employers take the risk in business, not the employees.
If this is the true case the league should be getting more than 50% of HRR.

Employees in the real world do not receive half of the pie, especially guaranteed in fixed amounts.

Comments like this really discredit your contributions to the discussion. You might as well just say you are firmly on the players side no matter what, as if you are rooting for a sports team.

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11-21-2012, 03:14 PM
  #638
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And there you go. League doesn't want to fully honour existing contracts (won't move further on "make whole"), and is unwilling to make any contract concessions.

League's position is wholly indefensible.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:18 PM
  #639
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Not surprised

At this point my caring has gone to the gutter..

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11-21-2012, 03:19 PM
  #640
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So the owners don't like the offer...My guess is that the NHL is seeing cracks in the players since they're willing to bend and are holding out to break them and get exactly what they want. Oh well...wasn't really missing hockey as bad as I thought I would, NFL will get my attention.

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11-21-2012, 03:26 PM
  #641
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This is supremely frustrating.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:30 PM
  #642
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Yeah NFL is taking up my sweet time, blue jays season is coming soon right after..

Once the NHL comes back, ill cheer again but now **** both of them

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11-21-2012, 03:34 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post

Once the NHL comes back, ill cheer again but now **** both of them
Yeah, that's my feeling too. After being through this before I am just numb to the situation. They will figure it out or they won't. They can cancel the season if they wish too, and the sooner the better if it keeps up like this.

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11-21-2012, 03:39 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Jay Cee View Post
Employees in the real world do not receive half of the pie, especially guaranteed in fixed amounts.
The top 1% of employees often earn vastly differently than what the rest of "the real world" working in that industry does.

If a company insisted on retaining 700 or so of the top 1000 lawyers on the planet, you can bet that the vast majority of their expenses would be employee salary and benefits.

Attempts to compare the personnel costs of "real world companies" (that with little exception, hire average workers for average compensation) and a professional sports league are highly misleading.

Comments like this really discredit your contributions to the discussion.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:44 PM
  #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @chrisbottanhl
A player at today's meeting told me the NHL's response was something like this: "No, no, no way, no friggin way, no and no."
After the players offered linkage with a soft landing and 200 million 'haircut', according to Fehr.

But the NHL is totally being reasonable here, right? The good news is that every day that goes by is a day closer to Gary Bettman's head on a stake.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:49 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
The good news is that every day that goes by is a day closer to Gary Bettman's head on a stake.
Isn't he just following what the owners want him to do?

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:51 PM
  #647
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Ooooh, we have a "concession" from the league:

Quote:
Originally Posted by "aaronward_nhl'
One movement on part of NHL, they did move on term of entry level to 3 years #TSN
Good job by Bettman here, to "give" the players a 3-year ELC. That would make a real difference over previous years

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11-21-2012, 03:51 PM
  #648
dave babych returns
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Isn't he just following what the owners want him to do?
Well, at least eight of them anyways.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:52 PM
  #649
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damn its tiring reading this ... so many taking one side or the other ... completely. The owners and the players are both groups of greedy *******s.

And some businesses pay there employees 50% of revenues. Depends on the type of business. Salaries are usually the single largest expense a company has.

Both sides are making proposals that are unrealistic. At least they are moving towards a common ground. But every proposal from Fehr has used language that is unclear and obfusticates the issue. This why Betman wanted a proposal in writing. This proposal once again isnt clear. Betman says lets talk about oranges, and Fehr says apples are the real issue.

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11-21-2012, 03:53 PM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Isn't he just following what the owners want him to do?
If he's not actively attempting to broker a deal, then what's he there for? His job is to corrale owners into a deal. Which he does, regularly. It's why he changed the voting structure so that he can his merry band of greedy owners on the eastern seaboard (Boston, Philly, etc.) can run the league how they'd like to.

Bettman should rightly go down in history as the least successful labour negotiatior in professional sports history. His reputation as a good negotiator absolutely confounds me.

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