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CBA Talk II: Shut up and give me YOUR money!

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:42 PM
  #901
rockinghorse
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[QUOTE=crazycanuck;56208229]@TheFourthPeriod
So John Collins (NHL's COO) is reportedly considering leaving due to the lockout... that would be a HUGE loss for the NHL if that happens

John Collins in the guy behind the Winter Classic and 24/7. This would be a huge loss for the NHL, hopefully this will help Bettman get deal done.

QUOTE]

What is the reason that
Quote:
he is considering leaving due to the lockout
?

Is it because he is disappointed with what he see's happening behind the scenes at the NHL?

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12-03-2012, 02:53 PM
  #902
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Ask yourself one question how in heavens sake can employers pay 57 percent of revunue to players?Also the Nfl tv contract is huge compared to nhl and player contracts are not guranteed .Do nhl players no how good they have it.

Because at that rate they're still profitable. In fact, last year the NHL was the 2nd most profitable of the big 4 sports in North America in terms of percentage:

Profits as a percentage of franchise values:

NFL: 3.71%
NHL: 2.96%
MLB: 2.38%
NBA: 1.48%


Profits as a percentage of league revenue:

NFL: 14.9%
NHL: 7.81%
MLB: 6.79%
NBA: 4.41%

I can't believe how many people are buying the NHL's cries of being poor. Even if they settled on an average of 52% revenue share for the players they'd be looking at profits in the neighborhood of 12-13% of revenue. Should the NHL really be pulling in money at twice the rate of the MLB and nearly 3 times the rate of the NBA?

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12-03-2012, 02:55 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Because at that rate they're still profitable. In fact, last year the NHL was the 2nd most profitable of the big 4 sports in North America in terms of percentage:

Profits as a percentage of franchise values:

NFL: 3.71%
NHL: 2.96%
MLB: 2.38%
NBA: 1.48%


Profits as a percentage of league revenue:

NFL: 14.9%
NHL: 7.81%
MLB: 6.79%
NBA: 4.41%

I can't believe how many people are buying the NHL's cries of being poor. Even if they settled on an average of 52% revenue share for the players they'd be looking at profits in the neighborhood of 12-13% of revenue. Should the NHL really be pulling in money at twice the rate of the MLB and nearly 3 times the rate of the NBA?
It really is as simple as this: the NHL currently has too many teams bleeding money because they are in markets where they aren't well supported, and the owners think the players should pay for this.

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12-03-2012, 06:41 PM
  #904
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I know there is no love, or even respect, for Damien Co, on these biards, but O thought this was an interesting take.

http://thestar.blogs.com/thespin/201...is-curren.html
Very interesting article.

Despite some of the protestations on here both sides are to blame. The owners made a crappy offer to start the ball rolling and the PA refuses to discuss it and make a counter-offer. Instead they make offer after offer that isn't linked. It is completely unrealistic in my viewpoint. So you can take the side like Proto does that the owners are a greedy bunch of miserable ******** (with which I, for the most part, totally agree) but to suggest that Fehr has taken any real steps towards getting this solved is annoying.

As has been stated by many ... agree to 53, 52, 51, 50 linked over the next 4 years and then get some relaxation on the player contract terms.

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Old
12-03-2012, 07:52 PM
  #905
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“@wbzsports: WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announcement tomorrow or Wednesday - @JoeGiza”
Hopefully

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12-03-2012, 10:07 PM
  #906
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Hopefully
Hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not buying it.

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12-03-2012, 11:46 PM
  #907
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Hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not buying it.
Nor should anyone really. Likely just another media stunt to show the fans they tried their best blah blah blah.

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:02 AM
  #908
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Yeah not holding my breath on this "meeting"

I can't believe how the NHL is handling this circus of a lockout on both sides

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12-04-2012, 01:10 AM
  #909
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Yeah not holding my breath on this "meeting"

I can't believe how the NHL is handling this circus of a lockout on both sides
I can believe it. The fact we have another lockout alone is a joke, forget how it's gone down. Brutal.

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12-04-2012, 01:12 AM
  #910
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Yeah, I'd be pretty surprised if any real traction was gained from these meetings. However, wouldn't it be an interesting thing if they could mend fences and come away with a deal in a few days time, without Bettman or Fehr present? Wouldn't say a lot for their negotiating skills during this process.

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12-04-2012, 01:34 AM
  #911
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I will buy all my friends a round of beer if they actually manage to save this season. I'm not getting my hopes up high anymore.

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:41 AM
  #912
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If they announce a season starting January first, we'll know it was planned out. Lease agreements run to the calender year, not the fiscal.

I get the impression that the discussion has been window dressing and the real agenda was deception. Why does the league need misdirection?

The answer is in bones bleaching on the desert.

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12-04-2012, 02:55 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
Very interesting article.

Despite some of the protestations on here both sides are to blame. The owners made a crappy offer to start the ball rolling and the PA refuses to discuss it and make a counter-offer. Instead they make offer after offer that isn't linked. It is completely unrealistic in my viewpoint. So you can take the side like Proto does that the owners are a greedy bunch of miserable ******** (with which I, for the most part, totally agree) but to suggest that Fehr has taken any real steps towards getting this solved is annoying.

As has been stated by many ... agree to 53, 52, 51, 50 linked over the next 4 years and then get some relaxation on the player contract terms.
Yes, the article was interesting and your comments are spot on.

Why didn't the PA take the easy route and just negotiate along those lines? The players made a killing with linkage and basically admitted to liking that structure when they said they were willing to extend the old CBA.

Despite that, Fehr insisted on trying to blow the whole thing up and proposing ideas that anyone with half a brain could see would never gain traction with the owners. In the process, the players are losing money that they will never recover. And for what? It was unwise for Hamrlik to have said what he said publicly, but he's basically right - if Fehr allows the season to be cancelled, he will have utterly failed to act in the best interests of his constituents.

Yes, the owners are blatantly greedy. Everyone can see that. That's what business is all about though: maximizing profit. It is what it is. Fehr should be doing the same thing for the players. Instead he's tilting at windmills.

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12-04-2012, 09:53 AM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
Yes, the article was interesting and your comments are spot on.

Why didn't the PA take the easy route and just negotiate along those lines? The players made a killing with linkage and basically admitted to liking that structure when they said they were willing to extend the old CBA.

Despite that, Fehr insisted on trying to blow the whole thing up and proposing ideas that anyone with half a brain could see would never gain traction with the owners. In the process, the players are losing money that they will never recover. And for what? It was unwise for Hamrlik to have said what he said publicly, but he's basically right - if Fehr allows the season to be cancelled, he will have utterly failed to act in the best interests of his constituents.

Yes, the owners are blatantly greedy. Everyone can see that. That's what business is all about though: maximizing profit. It is what it is. Fehr should be doing the same thing for the players. Instead he's tilting at windmills.
This is ridiculous. So you've moved on from the baseless "Fehr acting in bad faith" accusations (without backing them up) to Fehr being a bad negotiatior? Offering to reduce salaries to 50% without linkage was the only reasonable leverage Fehr had to get a deal done. The fact that the NHL didn't jump all over that (counter with the same soft landing with linkage, reduce contracting rights demands, offer something in return like younger UFA rights) is squarely at the feet of the league.

Your vague assertions about Fehr are simply not backed up two decades of successful history leading unions, nor do they seem to be rooted in any concrete examples from this series of negotiations -- in fact, I would say that "most people" think the models Fehr proposed might not gain tractions with the league as it is currently acting, but that doesn't make them unreasonable, given the league's untenable negotiating "ask".

Similarly, I can't imagine someone looking at what the players have offered already and what the league is demanding and concluding that Fehr is the one holding up the process. People might believe the PA should cave so they can watch hockey, but that's a bit of a leap to painting Fehr and the union as the bad actors here.

Furthermore, "tilting at windmills" refers to fighting imaginary battles. That's a rather uncharitable summary of Fehr's attempt to leverage linkage in order to reduce the league's over-the-top demands.

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12-04-2012, 09:55 AM
  #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
Very interesting article.

Despite some of the protestations on here both sides are to blame. The owners made a crappy offer to start the ball rolling and the PA refuses to discuss it and make a counter-offer. Instead they make offer after offer that isn't linked. It is completely unrealistic in my viewpoint. So you can take the side like Proto does that the owners are a greedy bunch of miserable ******** (with which I, for the most part, totally agree) but to suggest that Fehr has taken any real steps towards getting this solved is annoying.

As has been stated by many ... agree to 53, 52, 51, 50 linked over the next 4 years and then get some relaxation on the player contract terms.
This entire process seems to have been a series of miscalculations from both sides...wiith neither one believing that the other side would allow the season to go over the cliff.

I am an optimist by nature, but I have no longer believe we will have NHL hockey this season.

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12-04-2012, 10:00 AM
  #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
Yes, the article was interesting and your comments are spot on.

Why didn't the PA take the easy route and just negotiate along those lines? The players made a killing with linkage and basically admitted to liking that structure when they said they were willing to extend the old CBA.

Despite that, Fehr insisted on trying to blow the whole thing up and proposing ideas that anyone with half a brain could see would never gain traction with the owners. In the process, the players are losing money that they will never recover. And for what? It was unwise for Hamrlik to have said what he said publicly, but he's basically right - if Fehr allows the season to be cancelled, he will have utterly failed to act in the best interests of his constituents.

Yes, the owners are blatantly greedy. Everyone can see that. That's what business is all about though: maximizing profit. It is what it is. Fehr should be doing the same thing for the players. Instead he's tilting at windmills.
Also, you continue to skirt the issue of why it's even reasonable for the league to make all of the demands they are during tremendous growth in revenue, profits, and team values. "They're greedy -- what do you expect?" is not a very compelling argument to simply ignore the league's bad-faith negotiating to this point, especially when it's the reason there isn't hockey being played.

Why should the players accept that? If they do, the league will continue to ignore its problems and will be back at the table asking for more in 5 or 6 or 7 years.

To this point the league hasn't even been willing to agree to a CBA term that they initially asked for when the players finally agreed to it. Instead they indicated it was an unacceptable length: the term they original asked for. The league has been keen to drive this thing into the ditch since Day 1. Bettman wants to prove he has more guts than David Stern and won't "cave".

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Old
12-04-2012, 10:04 AM
  #917
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I will buy all my friends a round of beer if they actually manage to save this season. I'm not getting my hopes up high anymore.
Hey buddy, ol' pal, my amigo....

I'll do just about anything for free beer.

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12-04-2012, 10:33 AM
  #918
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
This entire process seems to have been a series of miscalculations from both sides...wiith neither one believing that the other side would allow the season to go over the cliff.

I am an optimist by nature, but I have no longer believe we will have NHL hockey this season.
When you have one side that has a history of using work stoppages as a "tactic" - you have to think that a lost season is a strong possibility at least some of the time (else that "tactic" loses it's effectiveness of a being a threat).

And I'd say this if the last three work stoppages occurred as a result of the NHLPA going on strike.

But given that this is the 3rd lockout by the owners in a row, you can tell which side I blame more (might be more sympathetic *IF* there were other a number of teams - other than the inept managed teams - in serious financial jeopardy). I exclude at least two of those inept teams (one, the Fishsticks will be moving to Brooklyn & the other can be easily solved by moving the Yotes to Quebec City; but Bettman is too greedy & likely wants Quebec City to come in as an expansion team and thus line the pockets of the owners via the expansion fee).


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 12-04-2012 at 11:11 AM.
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12-04-2012, 10:48 AM
  #919
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
When you have one side that has a history of using work stoppages as a "tactic" - you have to think that a lost season is a strong possibility at least some of the time (else that "tactic" loses it's effectiveness of a being a threat).

And I'd say this if the last three work stoppages occurred as a result of the NHLPA going on strike.

But given that this is the 3rd lockout by the owners in a row, you can tell which side I blame more (might be more sympathetic *IF* there were other a number of ones - other than the inept managed teams - in serious financial jeopardy). I exclude at least two of those inept teams (one, the Fishsticks will be moving to Brooklyn & the other can be easily solved by moving the Yotes to Quebec City; but Bettman is too greedy & likely wants Quebec City to come in as an expansion team and thus line the pockets of the owners via the expansion fee).
There is a level of toxicity here that makes me think the season is gone....and ifthat happens then decertification might be the nuke that changes the landscape of this game.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:41 AM
  #920
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BradZiemer:
Quote:
Manny Malhotra the lone #Canucks player in players-owners meeting in NYC today. 18 players taking part.
SunGarrioch:
Quote:
NYC: Craig Adams, David Backes, Michael Cammalleri, Sidney Crosby, B.J. Crombeen, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Ron Hainsey, Shawn Horcoff. Jamal Mayers, Manny Malhotra, Andy McDonald, Ryan Miller, George Parros, Brad Richards, Martin St. Louis, Jonathan Toews, Kevin Westgarth.

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12-04-2012, 05:02 PM
  #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
Very interesting article.

Despite some of the protestations on here both sides are to blame. The owners made a crappy offer to start the ball rolling and the PA refuses to discuss it and make a counter-offer. Instead they make offer after offer that isn't linked. It is completely unrealistic in my viewpoint. So you can take the side like Proto does that the owners are a greedy bunch of miserable ******** (with which I, for the most part, totally agree) but to suggest that Fehr has taken any real steps towards getting this solved is annoying.

As has been stated by many ... agree to 53, 52, 51, 50 linked over the next 4 years and then get some relaxation on the player contract terms.
Yeah that's kind of how I see the situation. I'll place the majority of blame on the league for being dicks, but the PA isn't helping themselves much by dragging their feet at the negotiating table and much of the combative stances between the two sides can be traced back to the cloak & dagger disposal of Paul Kelly. All in all the process seems like something designed to make the lawyers and negotiators lots of money, rather than one committed to making actual process.

I've started wondering though, we all question why the PA took so long to come to the negotiating table and criticize them for not doing it a year ago, but could the actual reason have to do with not messing up the summers UFA signing season? I can't imagine what July 1st would be like if this animosity was let out of the closet before hand. Plus it also let the players get one last contract signing period in under the mindset of the previous CBA, as any new one will be less favorable to them. Of course a new one wouldn't take effect until well after July 1st but if GM's had an idea of what the new rules would be shortly after they may have acted very differently. Now they can cling to the contracts they signed in good faith and expect or demand that they be carried over into the new CBA.

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Old
12-04-2012, 06:36 PM
  #922
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Both sides breaking up for a dinner break. Will meet after dinner. They've been meeting for 5+ hours so far.

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12-04-2012, 06:57 PM
  #923
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What happens if the league and union resolve this lockout on their own? Does this mean they don't need Bettman and Fehr anymore?

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12-04-2012, 07:00 PM
  #924
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John Shannon reporting that progress has been made in these meetings so far.

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12-04-2012, 07:02 PM
  #925
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@JSportsnet: Couldn't help but notice Crosby's agent Pat Brisson is in hotel, along with Pens co-owner Mario Lemieux. Could Pgh be building a bridge?
Burkle has apparently been the voice of reason tonight. Have to think Crosby glaring at him throughout the negotiations has something to do with that.

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