You mean, like tops in the league? Is that enough of an outlier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz
Well, I disagree. Its all about context. Taken in the correct context, its a fine stat.
All stats are flawed by the way, becasue they are affected by the other players on the ice.
I just found it funny that he mentioned that it needs to be an outlier. Tops in the league is a pretty good outlier. No-one outlies more at the moment.
Whoosh, flew right across your head.
That's not an outlier at all and is reminiscent of the examples given of Ovechkin and Jeff Schultz previously.
When I say outlier, I mean someone who has a high +/- on a bad defensive team that is also low-scoring where many of his teammates are in the negatives.
Or they have a very low negative +/- on a team that is decent defensively and high scoring.
For example, Brett Lebda going -3 in a 9-3 win for the Leafs is indicative of bad defense.
In Justin's case, OKC is tied for 2nd in GF in the West and Justin scores a lot of points and is involved in a lot of goals.
If anything, his +/- is more of a testament to his offensive abilities than his defensive abilities in this case.
That's not an outlier at all and is reminiscent of the examples given of Ovechkin and Jeff Schultz previously.
When I say outlier, I mean someone who has a high +/- on a bad defensive team that is also low-scoring where many of his teammates are in the negatives.
Or they have a very low negative +/- on a team that is decent defensively and high scoring.
For example, Brett Lebda going -3 in a 9-3 win for the Leafs is indicative of bad defense.
In Justin's case, OKC is tied for 2nd in GF in the West and Justin scores a lot of points and is involved in a lot of goals.
If anything, his +/- is more of a testament to his offensive abilities than his defensive abilities in this case.
OKC is tied for 6th in GF in the west.
And I realize the effect scoring has on +/-. I actually think the stat would be better if they only counted the minuses, with everyone starting the season at zero and going down from there. Since the stat is generally used to look at defense, they should just take out the offensive side.
But as I said, its a flawed stat, like all stats are. But people who simply dismiss it are missing the point.
That's not an outlier at all and is reminiscent of the examples given of Ovechkin and Jeff Schultz previously.
When I say outlier, I mean someone who has a high +/- on a bad defensive team that is also low-scoring where many of his teammates are in the negatives.
Or they have a very low negative +/- on a team that is decent defensively and high scoring.
For example, Brett Lebda going -3 in a 9-3 win for the Leafs is indicative of bad defense.
In Justin's case, OKC is tied for 2nd in GF in the West and Justin scores a lot of points and is involved in a lot of goals.
If anything, his +/- is more of a testament to his offensive abilities than his defensive abilities in this case.
a lot of his points have come on the pp which would not effect his +/-
And I realize the effect scoring has on +/-. I actually think the stat would be better if they only counted the minuses, with everyone starting the season at zero and going down from there. Since the stat is generally used to look at defense, they should just take out the offensive side.
But as I said, its a flawed stat, like all stats are. But people who simply dismiss it are missing the point.
OKC was tied for 2nd at the time that I posted, other teams have played more games since and catapulted themselves ahead. Regardless, that's not the main point of what I posted.
I agree with that system actually, though there's already separate stats available in terms of the NHL where you can see which players have the highest GA when they're on the ice.
And yes, you shouldn't completely dismiss it, but it lacks a lot of substance and again, it's like what I said earlier, you have to look at the specific contexts and underlying details of everything to get the real picture.
How often have they been able to see Pronger in Eddy, though? And can't really judge, since we don't know whether they would be booing them this year.
The hate died down really quick. I've tried to make it to every game that he's been in town, and have been repeatedly disappointed. He'd still get lightly boo'd, but nothing too bad at all.
Man, it is absolutely insane how effective Schultz is on the forecheck. Making things happen every single shift. He leaves quite a bit to be desired in the defensive zone at times, but he might simply revolutionize the defense position in the NHL lol.
Now riding an 11-game point streak. The only games in which he didn't score are the two games in a row where the Barons got shut out.
EDIT: Never mind, thought he'd scored an assist but it doesn't look like he did. So I guess his 10-game point streak has been snapped.
I keep hearing this "he leaves a bit to be desired in his own zone" stuff and I keep seeing him play a fairly sound defensive game. He's not dominant, but to say he gets the job done would be being mild. He's good at recovering too given his penchant to lead the rush and start the forecheck.
Why can't my fellow Oilers fans admit he's pretty average defensively? It's not like it's just me seeing it. Opposing fans see it almost every game as well. Last night in particular, he made quite a few gaffes in the D-zone.
But whatever, his defensive struggles are greatly outweighed by his offensive skills, no doubt about that.
I keep hearing this "he leaves a bit to be desired in his own zone" stuff and I keep seeing him play a fairly sound defensive game. He's not dominant, but to say he gets the job done would be being mild. He's good at recovering too given his penchant to lead the rush and start the forecheck.
Well that's probably it; presumably he's being discussed in the context of being one of the guys who would be in the NHL right now, and his defence, if only average or slightly above average for the AHL, would be something that needs work for the NHL level. Top pairing guys in the AHL look damn good against other guys in the minors, but the regulars evidently don't make the cut for even bottom pairing NHL duty.
Why can't my fellow Oilers fans admit he's pretty average defensively? It's not like it's just me seeing it. Opposing fans see it almost every game as well. Last night in particular, he made quite a few gaffes in the D-zone.
But whatever, his defensive struggles are greatly outweighed by his offensive skills, no doubt about that.
Agree with this, coaching or player development from the Oilers side needs to sit him down and tell him to calm down his game defensively. Noticed he seems to be running around, chasing the puck or not remembering to take the body on numerous occasions the past few games. It's fine, it's all part of development but you want to see these kinds of things being eliminated gradually as he transitions to pro.
He's not bad, but he could be made to look foolish or lose trust from the coaching staff in the NHL if it stays at the current level, trust he'll be able to fix it - smart kid.
I should also say that I believe his offense has nothing to do with these parts of his defense. He can work on his defense without compromising his offensive creativity which should continue to be highly encouraged. As it's obviously working to an extreme degree right now.
