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So who is bummed about the lockout? II

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12-07-2012, 10:04 AM
  #901
Jarick
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Not any worse than Bettman turning bright red and shaking at the podium and taking the offer "off the table" for, what, the fourth time? Dude has completely lost it.

A reasonable adult would say "we made and received offers and did not reach an agreement."

Bettman is clearly not reasonable and is flustered by Fehr's stall tactics. Luckily for him, fans are gullible and seem to have stuck with him ever since his offer two months ago.

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12-07-2012, 10:22 AM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Not any worse than Bettman turning bright red and shaking at the podium and taking the offer "off the table" for, what, the fourth time? Dude has completely lost it.

A reasonable adult would say "we made and received offers and did not reach an agreement."

Bettman is clearly not reasonable and is flustered by Fehr's stall tactics. Luckily for him, fans are gullible and seem to have stuck with him ever since his offer two months ago.
I haven't had a chance to watch the Press Conference but I just assumed it was more posturing. Ive neverthought that the NHL was any better than the PA and wouldn't expect anything less from Gary.

TBH i dont care who wins or who loses. I just want hockey back. But the atmosphere surrounding both sides is so venemous right now I don't know what to think. All of this over contract lengths and variation? come on guys!

Its just frustrating because if neither Gary or Donald were involved we would probably have a deal. (Not really completely true its just how it feels.)

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12-07-2012, 10:25 AM
  #903
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If Fehr wasn't involved, the players would have agreed to a much worse deal already. So that would make all the media people and everyone on HF Boards happy. If Bettman wasn't involved, it's possible that things could be better, worse, or the same.

When the players got Fehr, it's because they wanted to push the league to the absolute best deal they could possibly get from the league, not because they wanted to make a deal. Apparently that's shocking news to some...

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12-07-2012, 10:28 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
If Fehr wasn't involved, the players would have agreed to a much worse deal already. So that would make all the media people and everyone on HF Boards happy. If Bettman wasn't involved, it's possible that things could be better, worse, or the same.

When the players got Fehr, it's because they wanted to push the league to the absolute best deal they could possibly get from the league, not because they wanted to make a deal. Apparently that's shocking news to some...
but they have already lost more money then they could ever hope to get back....

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12-07-2012, 10:38 AM
  #905
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but they have already lost more money then they could ever hope to get back....
Not necessarily.

First, they have pushed the owners from 46% up to 50% + $300M in payments. Over eight years with a modest 4% growth, that means they've gained $1.5B over that length at the expense of about $800M in revenues. Net gain.

Second, there's the issue of contract rights, and to individual players, that's big. Getting longer deals with more variability at a younger age can mean millions of extra dollars to each player. Not that I'd agree that's best for the league (I like 5/7 year max deals without variability).

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12-07-2012, 10:44 AM
  #906
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A take more in the middle

Interesting thought that the Bettman presser was just as much for show as Fehr's presser. Probably correct. Everything these lawyers do is calculated.

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12-07-2012, 10:44 AM
  #907
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Russo the great is on Kfan right now. Sounding off on the PA.

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12-07-2012, 10:52 AM
  #908
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Ken Dryden brings up something I almost did in my last post

I thought part of this play by the players, even at the expense of salary, was to try and oust Bettman. That would be a huge win for them, even if it doesn't have any actual monetary value. He pushed them into three lockouts and they want some revenge.

His point doesn't quite reach that far, but it's about players feeling like they've won something in this lockout because they lost so much in the last one. And because it was already assumed (and taken for granted by so many posters in this thread) that they were going to lose from the get-go, they needed to feel some semblance of victory.

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Out of one negotiation into the next, every winner needs to win more. Every loser needs to get even.

For Bettman, there were the spoils of victory – a big boost in salary. For the losers, little by little reputations need to be rebuilt, self-images boosted, moments created where pride can be felt again.

The owner-player dispute this time may seems to be about the money, but it’s not. To understand it you have to “follow the pride.”

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12-07-2012, 11:06 AM
  #909
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Bringing up a question that was discussed earlier I'm sure, but if there was to be this 5, 7, 8 cap on contracts, Parise and Suter would be grandfathered in correct? No harm no foul?

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12-07-2012, 11:09 AM
  #910
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I *THINK* the NHL already agreed to not go after existing contracts, but I could be wrong.

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12-07-2012, 11:33 AM
  #911
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More guys in Fehr's pocket.

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I like to think of people rich enough to own sports teams as at least somewhat reasonable. Perhaps not pleasant people, but reasonable enough that they wouldn’t throw a fit when the union they bargain against isn’t smitten with gratitude when they return $100M of money they had previously allocated for said union.

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12-07-2012, 11:37 AM
  #912
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hahahah what a shocker.

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12-07-2012, 11:46 AM
  #913
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How long do they think they can do this ****** song and dance though? Every time they drag this out and throw their public temper tantrums, the amount of ***** I give goes down exponentially. I was going to try and get to 10 games this season, like last year. Now they'll be lucky to get me to 2. Part of that is that most of my attendance comes in the early season, but it's really more about the fact that I now rabidly hate everyone involved with this farce of a league and don't really feel like cheering for any of the lot.

Both the teams and the players are seriously and irreparably destroying their brands right now, and that's something nobody's including in their revenue projections. They're accounting for 40 canceled games (or however many) but are they delusional enough to think attendance will be even close to capacity?

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12-07-2012, 11:57 AM
  #914
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Really the biggest mistake on either side has been the PR crap. Bettman's press conferences have been just slightly worse than Fehr's (read: abysmal), and of course having players spouting off their crap on Twitter makes everything worse.

If both sides had kept everything much closer to the chest and simply said "we haven't agreed upon a deal but the details will remain private" things would be a million times better.

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12-07-2012, 11:58 AM
  #915
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I don't care anymore. Lawyers are playing their sickening games.. Maybe they're jealous because they can't play hockey and be stars.

If NHL comes back it comes. If it doesn't it doesn't.

Suppose that I should feel frustrated and angry.. when once more there were some hope and suddenly there isn't any. No, I don't. I feel nothing. I'm officially cynical. yippee yay hurrah. Fehr and Bettman, you won. Congratulations.

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12-07-2012, 11:59 AM
  #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Really the biggest mistake on either side has been the PR crap. Bettman's press conferences have been just slightly worse than Fehr's (read: abysmal), and of course having players spouting off their crap on Twitter makes everything worse.

If both sides had kept everything much closer to the chest and simply said "we haven't agreed upon a deal but the details will remain private" things would be a million times better.
Don't you mean $300 MILLION times better?

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12-07-2012, 12:02 PM
  #917
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I've long gotten over the fact that I was going to see no NHL hockey this year, so it's fairly enjoyable seeing a bunch of rich people destroy their company and brand. I just wish the fallout didn't include a so many people in and around the NHL that need their jobs.

For the seeming apathy toward the "grunts" who make the NHL go behind the scenes, toward the local businesses around the US and Canada that rely on the NHL for business, toward the cities/citizens that were promised a boost to their economy if they put up dollars toward rich, lush, overly expensive arenas, I will never be a hardcore fan of the NHL ever again. I will spend my money on other businesses that actually give a rip about their customers...or at least don't lie about giving a rip about them.

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12-07-2012, 12:07 PM
  #918
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Yeah I could try and be apathetic about the whole situation but the fact is every single day this goes on it is absolutely crushing to see my favorite sport without any games. I mean it might feel a little weird to say that a sporting event makes that much of a difference in life but sometimes it really does.

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12-07-2012, 12:09 PM
  #919
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I wish they'd just ****ing listen to the fans. Seriously.


Jack Jablonski has a good excuse not to play hockey. What's theirs?

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12-07-2012, 12:13 PM
  #920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Oh Cee View Post
Yeah I could try and be apathetic about the whole situation but the fact is every single day this goes on it is absolutely crushing to see my favorite sport without any games. I mean it might feel a little weird to say that a sporting event makes that much of a difference in life but sometimes it really does.
Oh I agree, but I will find other ways to get my hockey fix. I just can't in good faith continue to support a league that simply doesn't give a da** about it's customers and lesser paid employees. I'll watch on television, but that's it. I'm just not going to support them monetarily anymore. It's like having a bad experience at a restaurant. I'll get my dining out experience elsewhere from now on.

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12-07-2012, 12:15 PM
  #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Oh Cee View Post
Yeah I could try and be apathetic about the whole situation but the fact is every single day this goes on it is absolutely crushing to see my favorite sport without any games. I mean it might feel a little weird to say that a sporting event makes that much of a difference in life but sometimes it really does.
I know that feel bro. Think I'm just trying to protect myself.. when trying not to feel anything. But it's not frustration or anger anymore. It's only sadness.

Well said.

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12-07-2012, 12:15 PM
  #922
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The group I am in with on Season Tickets canceled today.

I'm not saying I won't pick up a game or two IF there is a season, but the Wild just lost a season ticket holder today...

/sigh

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:29 PM
  #923
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The saddest thing. IF there's any hockey any time soon. It means that NHLPA must break somehow. Means.. there will separate groups among the players. Means.. there will be some serious cancer in the locker rooms.

This whole thing... getting the best price no matter what (both sides).. The price they must pay to get there, may be far too ****** high.

These tactics are sick and people will become ill.

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12-07-2012, 12:33 PM
  #924
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Actually I take back what I said earlier. I think I will go to games once the league comes back, because I've really missed being able to go to hockey games for less than $20, and that's about where the market will be once they pull their heads out of their *****.

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12-07-2012, 01:11 PM
  #925
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I don't like Bettman one little bit more than I did before this thing started. I never thought he was incompetent, either, like some people. Beside the point...

Still, Fehr has been a disengeous ****stick this entire process, with the little stall tactics and large frustration tactics etc. What i don't understand is how some people seem to think that's admirable in Fehr (he's hardcore, doin the job fer the fellas! ) but Bettman's brutally curt responses are somehow indicative of ineptitude or malicious intent toward the sport. You are seriously stupid if you believe in any way that Fehr cares about the game of hockey going into the future. you are equally stupid if you believe Bettman doesn't.

Jarick is right about one thing--social media has really clogged the hell out of this process--not in itself but the fact that both sides (primarily the PAs, though) have seen fit to use it and by extension public opinion in their bargaining. We should have literally had nothing to do with this. Yeah, we like to be informed, but now days there's no way to inform without opening up the floodgates of discussion. sounds a little facist to say we shouldn't be discussing this but in this case the public discussion has turned into a huge boulder dragging the league under as more focus is spent on winning public opinion than finding a hard solution. Both sides.
Fehr needs to go the **** away.

What is that horrible deal for the players that they would have agreed to, Jarick? How horrible was it for the players? Will they suffer as much as they did the last negotiations?

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