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HOH Top Goalies of All Time Rules Discussion thread

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08-15-2012, 10:43 PM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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HOH Top Goalies of All Time Rules Discussion thread

We'll start out pretty basic:

1) Do we want a list of the top 30 goalies of all time or a list of the top 40 goalies of all time?

2) Do we keep a similar framework to last time? I thought it worked pretty well. I like 10 rounds of 3 to add 30 goalies or 10 rounds of 4 to add 40 goalies.

3) We need a second administrator for the project. PM me if interested. Proficiency with excel is helpful.

All are welcome to give input


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-15-2012 at 11:05 PM.
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08-15-2012, 10:52 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Just as an example and in my personal opinion, based on past ATDs, Tom Barrasso, Chuck Rayner, Percy Leseuer, and Vladimir Dzurilla are some names off the top of my head that would have a much better chance of making a top 40 list than a top 30 one. I'm not sure if that will affect anyone's decision

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08-15-2012, 11:17 PM
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kmad
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My vote's for top 30 (changed from 40 after reviewing arguments for/against)


Last edited by kmad: 08-16-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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08-16-2012, 12:28 AM
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Hawkey Town 18
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I vote for 40. I would also like the number of goalies voted for each round to be at least double the amount that get voted in...Just like we did for the Dman project, where we voted for the top 10 of the round to determine which 5 made the list.

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08-16-2012, 02:45 AM
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begbeee
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40 names. When you're doing it, do a good job, which lasts.
HOH D's is great job. Probably the best list ever created.

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08-16-2012, 03:41 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I'm fine with a final list of 40, but you guys realize that it means every participant is going to have to put together his own list that is longer than that, maybe 55 names?

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08-16-2012, 04:43 AM
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reckoning
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I was hoping it would be another top 60 list. There's lots of goalies to choose from; it wouldn't be a problem for anyone to find enough for their list.

In the defencemen project, I thought some of the most interesting discussions were the ones in the 40-50 range. When you get to that point, you have some fresh debates about players who don't get talked about as much on here. With the goalies list, comparing say Dave Kerr with Chris Osgood, or Roger Crozier with Pete Peeters, would be just as interesting as the Roy/Hasek/Brodeur threads that have been done on here so many times before.

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08-16-2012, 06:36 AM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I vote for 40. I would also like the number of goalies voted for each round to be at least double the amount that get voted in...Just like we did for the Dman project, where we voted for the top 10 of the round to determine which 5 made the list.
The downside of that format is that we didn't have time for substantial discussion of the entire group. There were times in the top-defensemen project when a player would be added to the list, and not discussed at all due to other ongoing arguments, and then the next round there would be a suggestion he should have gone earlier (I'd love to provide a specific example, but those threads were epic).

I'd prefer to have substantial discussion of all eligible players as soon as they're nominated, even if it means shortening the list or expanding the time limit.

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08-16-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
The downside of that format is that we didn't have time for substantial discussion of the entire group. There were times in the top-defensemen project when a player would be added to the list, and not discussed at all due to other ongoing arguments, and then the next round there would be a suggestion he should have gone earlier (I'd love to provide a specific example, but those threads were epic).

I'd prefer to have substantial discussion of all eligible players as soon as they're nominated, even if it means shortening the list or expanding the time limit.
From that angle, more than 5 eligible players per round could already be too much.

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08-16-2012, 07:07 AM
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quoipourquoi
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I liked the idea of doing a really tight list of 30 goaltenders, 5 per round.

30 LW - 30 C - 30 RW
30 D - 30 D
30 G

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08-16-2012, 07:21 AM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
From that angle, more than 5 eligible players per round could already be too much.
Maybe. It's hard to strike a perfect balance between timeframe and eligibility requirements.

IIRC, it became more of an issue toward the end of the 60-dmen list, when some of the candidates were relatively unfamiliar. We probably all have a top-5 fixed in our minds already, and a top-10 or 20 in rough order. All that's left is to hash out the order, and ensure that we haven't missed a crucial detail somewhere that could change our minds, so a complete profile on each candidate isn't really necessary. But when we get down to the 30-40 range, with 10 guys on the ballot, it becomes a bit more difficult to present a fully-rounded argument for every player before the time limit runs out.

Perhaps instead of tinkering with the list size, we include a mechanism that somehow demands detailed discussion on each eligible player.

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08-16-2012, 08:14 AM
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tony d
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I like the idea of doing a top 40 list. Maybe have all the voters do a list of their top 60 choices, wouldn't be that hard to do given all the research available on this site and around the internet.

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08-16-2012, 09:35 AM
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seventieslord
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I would prefer to do 40. I can help administrate. At the very least I can help to vet lists if we are doing that.

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08-16-2012, 10:26 AM
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Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
The downside of that format is that we didn't have time for substantial discussion of the entire group. There were times in the top-defensemen project when a player would be added to the list, and not discussed at all due to other ongoing arguments, and then the next round there would be a suggestion he should have gone earlier (I'd love to provide a specific example, but those threads were epic).

I'd prefer to have substantial discussion of all eligible players as soon as they're nominated, even if it means shortening the list or expanding the time limit.
On the other hand, there were also times last year where guys received the highest number of votes the very first time they came up...I'm specifically thinking of Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson here. Those are two guys that likely would have finished higher than they did had they been available earlier. If we cut down the number available per round a situation like that is more likely to occur.

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08-16-2012, 10:40 AM
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tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
On the other hand, there were also times last year where guys received the highest number of votes the very first time they came up...I'm specifically thinking of Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson here. Those are two guys that likely would have finished higher than they did had they been available earlier. If we cut down the number available per round a situation like that is more likely to occur.
Very true. I do think the top-60 process was VERY good, but it could be improved.

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08-16-2012, 04:15 PM
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Been a big follower of the hoh forums and as a goalie myself I'm interested in seeing how this forum judges a goalies skill. (random off topic question, does anyone know the skill level you need to get paid in Europe. I'm a jr a goalie looking into it)

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08-16-2012, 04:39 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Been a big follower of the hoh forums and as a goalie myself I'm interested in seeing how this forum judges a goalies skill. (random off topic question, does anyone know the skill level you need to get paid in Europe. I'm a jr a goalie looking into it)
Yes, you need to be at least an 8 out of 10.

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08-16-2012, 04:46 PM
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Agent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Been a big follower of the hoh forums and as a goalie myself I'm interested in seeing how this forum judges a goalies skill. (random off topic question, does anyone know the skill level you need to get paid in Europe. I'm a jr a goalie looking into it)
Your agent should be able to tell you.

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08-16-2012, 04:53 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I liked the idea of doing a really tight list of 30 goaltenders, 5 per round.

30 LW - 30 C - 30 RW
30 D - 30 D
30 G
If we do seperate centers and wingers, I think we'll do something like this:

60 C, 30LW, 30RW
or
50 C, 25LW, 25LW

There are just so many more historically noteworthy Cs than there are players who played either wing

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08-16-2012, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I was hoping it would be another top 60 list. There's lots of goalies to choose from; it wouldn't be a problem for anyone to find enough for their list.

In the defencemen project, I thought some of the most interesting discussions were the ones in the 40-50 range. When you get to that point, you have some fresh debates about players who don't get talked about as much on here. With the goalies list, comparing say Dave Kerr with Chris Osgood, or Roger Crozier with Pete Peeters, would be just as interesting as the Roy/Hasek/Brodeur threads that have been done on here so many times before.
Two reasons why I think the goalie project should be shorter:

1) goalie is generally considered the toughest position to evaluate. A shorter list means that the comparisons will have more depth at the expense of breadth.

2) the discussion really died down in the last two rounds of the defenseman project. Considering there are probably fewer "exciting" goalies than defensemen, I think if anything, discussion would die down earlier this time

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08-16-2012, 05:20 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Atd/mld

Perhaps the ATD/MLD format may be adapted to these lists.

In other words we can do dmen #'s 61-120 as a follow-up.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-16-2012 at 05:22 PM. Reason: typo
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08-16-2012, 05:25 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Perhaps the ATD/MLD format may be adapted to these lists.

In other words we can do dmen #'s 61-120 as a follow-up.
Perhaps in the future if there is interest.

We already decided we're doing goalies next

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08-16-2012, 05:26 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Perhaps the ATD/MLD format may be adapted to these lists.

In other words we can do dmen #'s 61-120 as a follow-up.
I would highly enjoy this, but I doubt many others would. I think they want to all move onto other positions now.

Really pleased to see that you're having fun with the MLD. mascots and everything.

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08-16-2012, 06:23 PM
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Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Been a big follower of the hoh forums and as a goalie myself I'm interested in seeing how this forum judges a goalies skill. (random off topic question, does anyone know the skill level you need to get paid in Europe. I'm a jr a goalie looking into it)
... If you havent got one already, find & ask an Agent. Meanwhile you can also ask around over on the Great Britain etc threads about it, as several posters on those boards are playing professionally in various leagues. 99Problems in the UK for example, who also happens to be a goalie.

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08-16-2012, 06:52 PM
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Umm....

I'll be the person that says we should do 30, because that would make the final product look symmetrical:

30LW-60C-30RW
30D-30D
30G

Also, I'd say 10 rounds to add 3 goalies each time works, and that we should have at least 10 goalies available each time to vote from.

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