Have to imagine he was one of the wingers seventies was referencing with the Sanderson pick. I looked at Prospal because he was a playmaking winger to pair with Jokinen, but it was just too much defensive liability for one line, so I went with the traditional winger in Sanderson to start my 2nd line.
You're right, he was one of them.
I know Prospal is nothing special in his own end, but is he really a liability? And would Sanderson be any better?
__________________
Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
I know Prospal is nothing special in his own end, but is he really a liability? And would Sanderson be any better?
Prospal matured over his career defensively. Not a liability and has become a better team player with age and can make some fine defensive plays here and there. Not as much when I saw him in the AHL with the Phantoms some years ago, way more offensive minded.
Sanderson was not very good defensively, from what I recall, in the traditional Marian Hossa sense...often times, he would be the last guy back because as a speedy left winger, it made sense for him to be the first man in in many systems. So he's in on the forecheck (forechecking, of course, a form of defense, despite its aggressive nature). If I had to pin it down, I'd say Sanderson was a guy that could play average defensively in a tight defensive system with a lot of structure, especially one that required collapsing back in the net. Otherwise, I don't recall him investing too much time in staunch defensive play.
Prospal matured over his career defensively. Not a liability and has become a better team player with age and can make some fine defensive plays here and there. Not as much when I saw him in the AHL with the Phantoms some years ago, way more offensive minded.
Sanderson was not very good defensively, from what I recall, in the traditional Marian Hossa sense...often times, he would be the last guy back because as a speedy left winger, it made sense for him to be the first man in in many systems. So he's in on the forecheck (forechecking, of course, a form of defense, despite its aggressive nature). If I had to pin it down, I'd say Sanderson was a guy that could play average defensively in a tight defensive system with a lot of structure, especially one that required collapsing back in the net. Otherwise, I don't recall him investing too much time in staunch defensive play.
Basically a wash, in my opinion...
Prospal were basically a sterotype of a Czech when he came over. Terribly defensively and not that great offensively. I'd say that whatever happened to him during the lockout was good for his career.
Sanderson had a different path entirely. He were a highly touted prospect out of WHL and joined Hartfords scoring line almost immediately, paired with Cassels, they werent exactly out there to stop the opponents. He was pretty good with the Sabres I think. I wouldn't have picked him though. He has never managed to score 30 goal or more without Cassels and Sanderson without Cassels is a single-A player at best.
Edit: Actually he managed to do it with another center in Columbus too, so he's a bit better than I thought.
Well, for starters the exact reason Olczyk's PPG is not much higher is because he played so much more hockey. If you just look at their best 6 seasons, Eklund scored 0.88 PPG to Olczyk's 1.03. Everything else Olczyk did in addition to that (0.73 PPG over his next 5 best seasons, for example) is gravy on top of that.
They both have identical records as penalty killers. Eklund appears to have a slight PP advantage. Olczyk at ES crushes him though, scoring at a 26% higher rate despite nearly twice as many games.
Eklund definitely has a better playoff record, but we're talking about just a 17% edge in production, and this represents a rather small part of each of their careers, even if we all agree playoffs are more important.
As for Jokinen, I can let his GM address that if he chooses, but from my vantage point he appears to be on another level entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
More on Eklund/Olczyk:
Linemates are a factor, too. These are Olczyk's best seasons, broken down a little further:
1989: 90 points. Led Toronto by a wide margin; 15 points. that includes players like Leeman, and also Damphousse, who was just a year younger.
1990: 88 points, 3rd on Toronto. Played with Leeman and Damphousse, who had 94 and 95. He was 3rd, but was not far enough behind that anyone would call him a point suck.
1988: Led Toronto with 75 points, 14 more than 2nd place.
1986: 79 points, 3rd on Chicago, behind Savard (obviously) and Troy Murray. Murray had 99 points, in a Ryan Kesler-ish output he wouldn't come close to repeating. Since Larmer and Savard were joined at the hip, he presumably played with Murray. It's interesting that, although he had the lowest PPG on his line (Curt Fraser was the other winger), he outscored both of Savard's wingers - Secord and Larmer.
1992: 65 points, 2nd on Jets, 1st among forwards. Clearly Housley and Olausson ran that offense, but Olczyk was their most prolific forward, scoring 15 more than anyone else.
1991: 57 points in 61 games after coming over from Toronto (0.93). This was easily the 2nd best scoring rate among forwards, after Thomas Steen (1.16). After that, it was Pat Elyniuk, who played with Steen (0.81) and Brent Ashton (0.59) who, based on the roster, I presume played with Steen as well. This means the best linemates Olczyk could have had were Paul MacDermid (0.52) and Doug Evans (0.49).
In Eklund's case, in at least a few of his relevant offensive seasons, didn't he play with Tim Kerr? Kerr, of course, topped a point per game every season from 1984-1990, excluding '88; Eklund never did.
These are excellent posts backing up opinion with facts. Eddie O didn't play over 1000 career games, because he couldn't play better than Eklund.
Last edited by gmm: 10-30-2012 at 10:12 AM.
Reason: Honoring Hobnobs
By the way, consider GrantSabbath ( this guy )my co-GM for all intents and purposes. You'll notice he has only one post, but I know him in real life, and am just about to head out for wings and beer and discuss my next pick (because we're men, har har har). So he may or may not do anything, but if by chance he comes in during my turn and picks someone, see it as legitimate.
Grant Sabbath and I pick Brad Stuart, D. Nearly 900 games, big minute guy with some offensive upside early on, and a big part of some very good Wings teams.
Last edited by seventieslord: 10-30-2012 at 10:09 PM.
This is a very good pick. Probably the best pre-expansion winger. Poile has the all-star team on him, but Robinson's offense was so much better. And I don't think either did much more than score.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine
Grant Sabbath and I pick Brad Stuart, D. Nearly 900 games, big minute guy with some offensive upside early on, and a big part of some very good Wings teams.
I bristled when he was taken two drafts ago at 1121. Wasn't sure how he stood out. Two more good seasons later, he is a great pick at 1240.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor
Jason Pominville, RW
Wow, there really is no hiding picks, eh?
My favourite wingers heading into this:
Petr Sykora
Earl Robinson
Geoff Sanderson
Vinny Prospal
Jason Pominville
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur
32 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Professionals - Earl Robinson, RW
33 chaosrevolver - Belleville Bulls - SKIPPED
34 Velociraptor - Utah Grizzlies - SKIPPED
35 Johnny Engine - St. John's Ice Caps - On the clock until 8:39 PM
36 BillyShoe1721 - EHC Eisbären Berlin -
- When I ask about whether to stop the clock overnight, I get silence. The problem is, that silence could mean, "I don't care either way", or "I like it the way it is and don't want to change". Can I get some opinions on this?
- We need to get slotted into divisions. There are a couple things we could do. One would be for TDMM to randomly draw them, or for him to assign divisions fairly as an unbiased observer (basing it on experienced vets, younger vets, and noobs). I'm open to other ideas too. (the reason this happened is because it looked like we were heading for 11 teams which would have been a one-division draft, then we got 12 right at the buzzer)
- Any mod reading this, you are always allowed to update post 2 with recent picks. In fact, I'd love it if you did. Failing that, any non-mod can do what Dreakmur just did. It really helps when I'm away from the board for 8-12 hours and need to add up the clocks to see where we are.
- Let's all remember to PM the next guy after making our pick.
- Also, if you ever see your post was edited by me, the sole reason was to bold the name of the player you selected, and/or add a position if you didn't list one.
Alright, I'm going to take the guy who I was debating about along with Stuart. Francois Beauchemin hasn't played less than 23 minutes at any point in his career, and he's been part of a few great teams. Probably a higher peak as a defensive defenseman than Stuart.
The IceCaps now have a great shutdown pairing, or possibly 2 pairings with a steady rock.
Alright, I'm going to take the guy who I was debating about along with Stuart. Francois Beauchemin hasn't played less than 23 minutes at any point in his career, and he's been part of a few great teams. Probably a higher peak as a defensive defenseman than Stuart.
The IceCaps now have a great shutdown pairing, or possibly 2 pairings with a steady rock.
I have a feeling not many people will like this pick, but I like it.
I didn't like it when I first read it, but when I looked up his usage, Beauchemin has been heavily relied upon by some good teams. His TOI looks so good because he was paired with Pronger/Niedmermayer for the majority of his career. He got that much time because he was their partner, not necessarily because he is a 25 minute a night(#1) defenseman. It's still a solid pick though.
The Belleville Bulls use their skipped pick to select a fast two-way player who was a clutch scorer and was actually 4th all-time in goals after the 1899 season:
C - Billy Barlow
With their other pick the Bulls will select a physical defensive defenseman who was a coaches favourite:
32 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Professionals - Earl Robinson, RW
33 chaosrevolver - Belleville Bulls - Billy Barlow, C
34 Velociraptor - Utah Grizzlies - Jason Pominville, RW
35 Johnny Engine - St. John's Ice Caps - Brad Stuart, D
36 BillyShoe1721 - EHC Eisbären Berlin - Mac Colville, RW
37 BillyShoe1721 - EHC Eisbären Berlin - Rick Smith, D
38 Johnny Engine - St. John's Ice Caps - Francois Beauchemin, D
39 Velociraptor - Utah Grizzlies - SKIPPED40 chaosrevolver - Belleville Bulls - Lyle Odelein, D
41 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Professionals - Keith Brown, D
42 tony d - St. John's Monsters - ON THE CLOCK until 6:59 AM
43 seventieslord & Dreakmur - Regina Pat Canadians -
44 Hedberg - Fort Saskatchewan Traders -
I didn't like it when I first read it, but when I looked up his usage, Beauchemin has been heavily relied upon by some good teams. His TOI looks so good because he was paired with Pronger/Niedmermayer for the majority of his career. He got that much time because he was their partner, not necessarily because he is a 25 minute a night(#1) defenseman. It's still a solid pick though.
He wasn't really either of their partners. Those 3 guys were just used A LOT, and in different combinations. All three weren't actually together very long. He's been a 23+ minute guy for 7 seasons in a row now.
