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Other Chicago Sports/General Sports Thread Part XIV: WOO IRISH

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Old
10-31-2012, 11:47 AM
  #251
digdug41982
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
He's basically Barry Zito at this point.
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And you don't think that's part of the reason why his ERA was above 5 this year...? I don't see what you're getting at. If anything, that's a reason to avoid him IMO. He is a guy who relied on his velocity, being he doesn't have the greatest location.
He's still a quality #5, you know you'll get the innings, the kind of guy that makes your team deeper and better, but that is it. Once the playoffs come, he's a long man.

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10-31-2012, 11:48 AM
  #252
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Oh, I was talking about Haren. Haha. I just read the any reason why part.

Ervin has better chances to rebound against weak hitters and would be easy to move if so.
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
He's still a quality #5, you know you'll get the innings, the kind of guy that makes your team deeper and better, but that is it. Once the playoffs come, he's a long man.
$13M for a #5 guy is pretty damn pricey...

I'd rather have Haren for $2M more. His last 8 or so starts, at least on the box score, look like vintage Haren. If you get him to rebound even to #2 quality, pair that with Dempster and maybe say Edwin... and that's not a bad rotation. I'd then look to get someone like JP Howell for the pen.

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10-31-2012, 11:50 AM
  #253
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$13M for a #5 guy is pretty damn pricey...

I'd rather have Haren for $2M more. His last 8 or so starts, at least on the box score, look like vintage Haren. If you get him to rebound even to #2 quality, pair that with Dempster and maybe say Edwin... and that's not a bad rotation. I'd then look to get someone like JP Howell for the pen.
I don't think Haren holds up. I'd rather grab Santana and take his risk reward to July 31st.

Go out and grab Anibal Sanchez and Kyle Lohse to pair with him.

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10-31-2012, 11:52 AM
  #254
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$13M for a #5 guy is pretty damn pricey...

I'd rather have Haren for $2M more. His last 8 or so starts, at least on the box score, look like vintage Haren. If you get him to rebound even to #2 quality, pair that with Dempster and maybe say Edwin... and that's not a bad rotation. I'd then look to get someone like JP Howell for the pen.
I saw a few of those starts, topped out at 91. In the NL, maybe you have a #3/4 just because the guy knows how pitch and doesn't walk a lot of guys. Howell, that guy I would love to get.

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10-31-2012, 11:53 AM
  #255
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I don't think Haren holds up. I'd rather grab Santana and take his risk reward to July 31st.

Go out and grab Anibal Sanchez and Kyle Lohse to pair with him.
The problem with Santana is that he is much better in the 2nd half than the 1st. If you want to trade him July 31st, it's risky. But I like him to stay for 3 or 4 years and help us when we are good.

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10-31-2012, 11:57 AM
  #256
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I saw a few of those starts, topped out at 91. In the NL, maybe you have a #3/4 just because the guy knows how pitch and doesn't walk a lot of guys. Howell, that guy I would love to get.
Haren has never averaged more than 91 MPH on his fastball in his entire career... so nothing wrong with that velocity. From what I read his splitter was still biting, and that's all you need out of him. 1-2 MPH less on the splitter as long as it has that same bite is perfectly fine if he is topping out at 91-92.

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I don't think Haren holds up. I'd rather grab Santana and take his risk reward to July 31st.

Go out and grab Anibal Sanchez and Kyle Lohse to pair with him.
You'd rather pay Ervin $13M coming off a terrible year? No thanks... like I said, the last month and a half Haren's numbers look like vintage Haren. I'll take my chances with a one year deal on him.

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10-31-2012, 11:59 AM
  #257
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The problem with Santana is that he is much better in the 2nd half than the 1st. If you want to trade him July 31st, it's risky. But I like him to stay for 3 or 4 years and help us when we are good.
I hope you guys also realize he is pretty bad away from home... 4.95 career ERA away from LAA, over 700+ IP.

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10-31-2012, 12:01 PM
  #258
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Haren has never averaged more than 91 MPH on his fastball in his entire career... so nothing wrong with that velocity. From what I read his splitter was still biting, and that's all you need out of him. 1-2 MPH less on the splitter as long as it has that same bite is perfectly fine if he is topping out at 91-92.

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10-31-2012, 12:06 PM
  #259
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No thanks on Lohse. He won't repeat his career year outside of STL and he'll get a fat contract from someone who will regret it.

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10-31-2012, 12:08 PM
  #260
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No thanks on Lohse. He won't repeat his career year outside of STL and he'll get a fat contract from someone who will regret it.
He was pretty good the year before too... But I think he is a product of Duncan and a pretty pitcher friendly park. I wouldn't mind him, but I think he'll get overpaid.


I'm personally fine with another year of sucking, letting the prospects mature, snagging another top 3 pick... and then spending money on the 2014 FA class.

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10-31-2012, 12:23 PM
  #261
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Haren's maximum velocity in his prime years was between 94 and 96 mph. This allowed him to crank up the velocity and get hitters to chase up and in fastballs. Now, Haren's maximum velocity crashed to 91 mph. He doesn't have it anymore.

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10-31-2012, 01:05 PM
  #262
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Haren's maximum velocity in his prime years was between 94 and 96 mph. This allowed him to crank up the velocity and get hitters to chase up and in fastballs. Now, Haren's maximum velocity crashed to 91 mph. He doesn't have it anymore.
He isn't a guy that relies on high velocity though, it's control and a splitter with great bite... if he can get the bite, hit high 80s while occasionally cracking 90-91 he'll be fine. He's always been more of a control guy anyway...

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10-31-2012, 01:06 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
The problem with Santana is that he is much better in the 2nd half than the 1st. If you want to trade him July 31st, it's risky. But I like him to stay for 3 or 4 years and help us when we are good.
That really isn't true...at least his before/after All Star game stats(not "half" but neither is the deadline).

2007
Before: 10-6, 2.75 ERA
After: 5-7, 4.04 ERA
2008
Before: 8-7, 2.84 ERA
After: 8-0, 2.17 ERA
2009
Before: 10-7, 3.09 ERA
After: 3-2, 3.22 ERA
2010
Before: 7-5, 2.98 ERA
After: 4-4, 3.00 ERA
2012
Before: 6-5, 3.24 ERA
After: 0-4, 16.33 ERA

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10-31-2012, 01:09 PM
  #264
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Trading a guy at the peak of his value is a bottom line move? Okay.

You have a big, scoring wing. Complement him. That's what they did.
Peak of his value? He's 23 years old and one of the 25 best players in basketball. Why would you ever trade that? They didn't want to pay the luxury tax so they traded him and made their team worse in a year where they were one of the 4 best teams in basketball.

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10-31-2012, 01:14 PM
  #265
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That really isn't true...at least his before/after All Star game stats(not "half" but neither is the deadline).

2007
Before: 10-6, 2.75 ERA
After: 5-7, 4.04 ERA
2008
Before: 8-7, 2.84 ERA
After: 8-0, 2.17 ERA
2009
Before: 10-7, 3.09 ERA
After: 3-2, 3.22 ERA
2010
Before: 7-5, 2.98 ERA
After: 4-4, 3.00 ERA
2012
Before: 6-5, 3.24 ERA
After: 0-4, 16.33 ERA
That is Johan Santana.

Ervin 3 year splits 16-24 4.39 ERA Pre-Allstar, 21-11 3.68 ERA Post-Allstar

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10-31-2012, 01:21 PM
  #266
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Peak of his value? He's 23 years old and one of the 25 best players in basketball. Why would you ever trade that? They didn't want to pay the luxury tax so they traded him and made their team worse in a year where they were one of the 4 best teams in basketball.
One of the 25 best players in basketball? Huh? You could argue it, but he's in my 26-30 range.

Like I said, by moving him they complement Durant better in combination with being able to fill the pipeline better. This makes too much sense.

Not to mention, his fiasco of a finals.

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10-31-2012, 01:24 PM
  #267
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One of the 25 best players in basketball? Huh?

Like I said, by moving him they complement Durant better in combination with being able to fill the pipeline better. This makes too much sense.

Not to mention, his fiasco of a finals.
Yes, James Harden is absolutely one of the 25 best players in basketball. How does Kevin Martin compliment Durrant better? He's better than Harden at absolutely nothing, and he's 29 and he misses about 20 games a season. Harden had a tough series against the Heat, but 5 games does not define a player. It especially doesn't define a player in his 3rd season in the league. Rose had a bad playoffs against the Heat, is he no good either?

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10-31-2012, 01:27 PM
  #268
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Yes, James Harden is absolutely one of the 25 best players in basketball. How does Kevin Martin compliment Durrant better? He's better than Harden at absolutely nothing, and he's 29 and he misses about 20 games a season. Harden had a tough series against the Heat, but 5 games does not define a player. It especially doesn't define a player in his 3rd season in the league. Rose had a bad playoffs against the Heat, is he no good either?
Harden was totally ineffective. He proved that his defensive deficiencies against premiere wings are almost unbearable at times.

Kevin Martin is a great shooter. He helps them spread the floor. Lamb does an even better job of that by providing a top level defender on the wing. All in all, their rotation gets deeper with this deal.

And... They get lottery picks to help them keep the pipeline flowing with talent.

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10-31-2012, 01:37 PM
  #269
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Harden was totally ineffective. He proved that his defensive deficiencies against premiere wings are almost unbearable at times.

Kevin Martin is a great shooter. He helps them spread the floor. Lamb does an even better job of that by providing a top level defender on the wing. All in all, their rotation gets deeper with this deal.

And... They get lottery picks to help them keep the pipeline flowing with talent.
Great shooter you say?

Kevin Martin 41% from the floor, 34% 3
James Harden 49% from the floor, 39% from 3

Harden had 21 points on 11 shots in game 2 of the Finals and 19 on 11 shots in game 5. He had 2 bad games (games 3 and 4) but he tore it up in the Western Conference Finals.

Also the picks they got are both protected. Toronto's pick is 1-3 and 15-30 protected and Dallas' pick is top 20 protected until 2017....so no, they didn't get a bunch of lottery picks.

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10-31-2012, 02:15 PM
  #270
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Great shooter you say?

Kevin Martin 41% from the floor, 34% 3
James Harden 49% from the floor, 39% from 3

Harden had 21 points on 11 shots in game 2 of the Finals and 19 on 11 shots in game 5. He had 2 bad games (games 3 and 4) but he tore it up in the Western Conference Finals.

Also the picks they got are both protected. Toronto's pick is 1-3 and 15-30 protected and Dallas' pick is top 20 protected until 2017....so no, they didn't get a bunch of lottery picks.
They get a lottery pick now and one down the road. That's a bunch of lottery picks.

Kevin Martin was also the #1 option on an awful team... In no way is Martin better than Harden, but he's a role player that will complement Durant, along with Lamb.

They got a little bit worse now, along with getting better in the long run.

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10-31-2012, 02:50 PM
  #271
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They get a lottery pick now and one down the road. That's a bunch of lottery picks.

Kevin Martin was also the #1 option on an awful team... In no way is Martin better than Harden, but he's a role player that will complement Durant, along with Lamb.

They got a little bit worse now, along with getting better in the long run.
I take it that you are counting Lamb as the lottery pick correct? If so, then yes they get 2 lottery picks. That said, not many players picked out of the top 10 end up becoming great players. Maybe Lamb will be good but he's proven nothing so far.

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10-31-2012, 02:53 PM
  #272
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I take it that you are counting Lamb as the lottery pick correct? If so, then yes they get 2 lottery picks. That said, not many players picked out of the top 10 end up becoming great players. Maybe Lamb will be good but he's proven nothing so far.
I'm counting him and when the Dallas pick loses its protection.

Lamb is a good defensive player and a spot up shooter. He'll at least be a good role player on that team. There's a lot to like about Jeremy Lamb.

Having a lottery pick next year is going to be huge. There are at least 6 high caliber players in that draft, as of right now.

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10-31-2012, 02:58 PM
  #273
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I'm counting him and when the Dallas pick loses its protection.

Lamb is a good defensive player and a spot up shooter. He'll at least be a good role player on that team. There's a lot to like about Jeremy Lamb.

Having a lottery pick next year is going to be huge. There are at least 6 high caliber players in that draft, as of right now.
That Dallas pick will be between 20-30 as I think they'll definitely finish with a top 10 record before 2017 when that pick loses its protection.

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10-31-2012, 04:15 PM
  #274
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The Royals just picked up Ervin... no word on what they gave up yet.

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10-31-2012, 04:23 PM
  #275
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Uh oh...

That team is a few pitchers away from contending. So that's one...

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