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NHLPA annoyed with circumvention of negotiations

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10-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #26
SuperUnknown
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Exactly. From what I have read of this memo it's offering advice and instruction on how to respond to a player initiating a conversation. It's the players breaking out and trying to get more information.

It speaks to serious issues within the PA. We should all be worried because this situation is needlessly spinning in really strange directions and it didn't have to be this way.
Imo, it's not surprising since there must be players that think 50% of a good pot is better than 0% of 57% of the same pot. If you had 10 years of good earnings ahead of you, would you want to lose 10% of your potential total income over a temporary setback in total $ (which over the 10 years of career would be about 3% cut).

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10-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #27
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anyone who claims that the players are not being provided appropriate and poper info is full if crap.

EVERY PLAYER has been invited and encouraged to attend negotiating sessions should they wish to attend.

NOT ONE PLAYER has ever been told "Sorry pal, talk to your rep"

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10-23-2012, 12:04 PM
  #28
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Uh oh, Dad's mad!

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10-23-2012, 12:04 PM
  #29
Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
I was not a fan when the NFLPA whined to the courts. Its a cowards tactic. If the league won't give you what you want then go to the courts and make them give what you want. Courts should not be involved in CBA discussions.
In this case it sounds like the PA is whining about the league instructing GMs and owners on how to respond to players' requests for info.

This can only end badly for the PA as the courts will probably wonder why the players aren't getting the needed info in-house.

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10-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
anyone who claims that the players are not being provided appropriate and poper info is full if crap.

EVERY PLAYER has been invited and encouraged to attend negotiating sessions should they wish to attend.

NOT ONE PLAYER has ever been told "Sorry pal, talk to your rep"
Then why are players breaking ranks and reaching out to management? Does this happen when other unions negotiate CBAs?

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10-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
In this case it sounds like the PA is whining about the league instructing GMs and owners on how to respond to players' requests for info.

This can only end badly for the PA as the courts will probably wonder why the players aren't getting the needed info in-house.
Doesn't really matter why the use of the courts its still a cowards tactic.

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10-23-2012, 12:07 PM
  #32
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One of the chief complaints from the players side prior to their proposals, was a lack of understanding the NHL's offer, namely, "being made whole." The NHL took advantage of this by opening an avenue of communication to explain their rationality. When Fehr is going around making offers he admits to not properly calculating, only to then be made an utter fool by Daly. You can hardly fault a few players from seeking a second opinion, if only to compare notes.

There is no case to be made against the NHL, but I certainly do not doubt Fehr to try. He does adore his stall tactics.

Edit: Share me the ethics debate. The NHLPA has not exactly been the champion of ethics when they purposely deflect any inquiry about the NFL or NBA CBAs and instead twist it into a Baseball argument. Likewise, their "we just want to play" slogan has always been disingenuous.

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10-23-2012, 12:07 PM
  #33
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So people are mad at the owners when it's the players going around Fehr to ask questions?

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10-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
In this case it sounds like the PA is whining about the league instructing GMs and owners on how to respond to players' requests for info.

This can only end badly for the PA as the courts will probably wonder why the players aren't getting the needed info in-house.
Doubt that's it at all.

More likely the players are fishing for those owners that are as eager to get a deal done as some of the players are.

the desire to get back on the ice is not a one way thing.

Teams lose alot of money as well by not playing and similar to the way the NHL broke the union last time, I'm confident the NHLPA are probably looking for cracks amongst the owners.

Fair is fair.

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10-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
Doesn't really matter why the use of the courts its still a cowards tactic.
balderdash

in negotiations where there are millions of dollars at stake and one side is trying to strong arm the other. You use ANY AND EVERY leverage point to your advantage.

that bullspit macho approach means absolutely NADA.

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10-23-2012, 12:12 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Doubt that's it at all.

More likely the players are fishing for those owners that are as eager to get a deal done as some of the players are.

the desire to get back on the ice is not a one way thing.
Hopefully the players will learn from outsiders and adults how they are really being treated and how they need to make changes at the top of the PA.

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10-23-2012, 12:12 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by zytz View Post
So people are mad at the owners when it's the players going around Fehr to ask questions?
Rather, this is what the PA is hoping for. Their entire PR campaign has been obliterated by the NHL. They want to turn back the tide, so to speak.

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10-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
balderdash

in negotiations where there are millions of dollars at stake and one side is trying to strong arm the other. You use ANY AND EVERY leverage point to your advantage.

that bullspit macho approach means absolutely NADA.
It's my opinion. Going to the courts to whining is nothing more than wasting everyone's time where they should be negotiating to get a deal done.

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10-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Rather, this is what the PA is hoping for. Their entire PR campaign has been obliterated by the NHL. They want to turn back the tide, so to speak.
So they're telling us that their members are turning to others for info, advice, and assistance? That will really help.

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10-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #40
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If (and that is a big IF) Donald Fehr is withholding information from his constituents, then absolutely that would be unethical. There is absolutely no evidence that that is occurring though.... As it stands, the NHL is the only one acting unethically, and even if your postulation were correct, it wouldn't make the NHL's actions any more ethical.
... I agree. Its blatantly obvious what the NHL's cooking up in their kitchen's, and any suggestion that Fehr would feel it necessary to withhold inf from his constituents, even think about doing so is absolutely anathema to everything we know about the guy, the manner in which he's conducted himself & union business over the past near on 30yrs. Propaganda floated to creative an environment of divisive second guessing, designed to exacerbate the levels of mistrust & cynicism. The NHL plays Hardball, takes no prisoners.

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10-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
balderdash

in negotiations where there are millions of dollars at stake and one side is trying to strong arm the other. You use ANY AND EVERY leverage point to your advantage.

that bullspit macho approach means absolutely NADA.
There is no leverage point to a court proceeding under these circumstances. The court will not enforce a deadline for a new CBA nor hasten the process. We will just been stalled into months of waiting while the PA stamps its foot for the owners circling around them. We or lose, we will be exactly where we are now. Potentially worse, in fact, because if the NHL lost. How much to you wager the owners will want to recoup those losses in the CBA?

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10-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #42
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Were GM's contacting players to discuss the league's proposals or were the players simply told that they could contact GMs if they wanted? Th NHL is certainly sending a message to Fehr here and I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to pursue some sort of action over this, however, wouldn't there be some sort of legal loophole if the players are the ones that contacted and initiated CBA discussion with the GM? Just trying to think it all through.

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10-23-2012, 12:17 PM
  #43
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Uh oh, Dad's mad!
.... you got that right. Your all grounded.

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10-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Hopefully the players will learn from outsiders and adults how they are really being treated and how they need to make changes at the top of the PA.
How are the players being treated?

Fehr has time and again invited them, one and all, to attend a negotiating session if they had questions.

I think that they are being MORE than transparent.

The NHLPA has more transparency now then they have EVER had.

I mean, granted that was not a stretch when you had one president in Eagleson conspiring with owners to screw the players.

Then you had an idiot in Goodenow offer up a 24% rollback concession.

You guys can paint Fehr as this secretive person that is misleading the players, but you could not be more wrong.

He was hired because he was the best man for the job. He took the job on the condition that anyone at any time can be informed as to what is going on at the NHLPA's HQ.

You may not like Fehr, but to paint him as something he is not is disingenous at best.

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10-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
So they're telling us that their members are turning to others for info, advice, and assistance? That will really help.
He asked why people are mad with the owners. The PA is probably hoping people do not do their own research and readily assume the owners are using dirty tactics to break ranks. Let's face it, HF is the minority but I doubt it works. What the PA is doing that is.

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10-23-2012, 12:22 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
There is no leverage point to a court proceeding under these circumstances. The court will not enforce a deadline for a new CBA nor hasten the process. We will just been stalled into months of waiting while the PA stamps its foot for the owners circling around them. We or lose, we will be exactly where we are now. Potentially worse, in fact, because if the NHL lost. How much to you wager the owners will want to recoup those losses in the CBA?
I deal with legal cases regarding all sorts of issues. Most of them are straight jobs that are cookie cutter in essence.

The one thing that is ALWAYS up for guess work is how a Judge is going to rule.

If you move in that direction and you get denied you are no worse off. If you win, that becomes an interesting situation.

But to discount it because some macho BS? sorry, that's not in the playbook.

forgot to mention, any court action doesn't have to be in place of negotiations. It can be done WHILE negotiations are on going.

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10-23-2012, 12:24 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
He was hired because he was the best man for the job. He took the job on the condition that anyone at any time can be informed as to what is going on at the NHLPA's HQ.
Like any leader Fehr is spinning and shaping the information he releases so I would stop trying to turn the guy into a labour saint. From what I have read, seen and been told by union guys this situation is an unecessary mess and should have turned out differently.

I keep wondering why the PA didn't turn to union types like Buzz Hargrove or any of the former coal miners in Cape Breton who actually play and understand the game.

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10-23-2012, 12:25 PM
  #48
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pld459666,

I don't see how involving the courts is really going to help the situation. If i was a player I would rather not provoke the league into using its cancel season card.

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10-23-2012, 12:26 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
In this case it sounds like the PA is whining about the league instructing GMs and owners on how to respond to players' requests for info.

This can only end badly for the PA as the courts will probably wonder why the players aren't getting the needed info in-house.
That doesn't matter in a legal sense. The courts are there to decide whether or not the NHL's actions were legal in accordance with the law, not to decide that it was ok because the PA did not give the players enough information.

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10-23-2012, 12:29 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
How are the players being treated?

Fehr has time and again invited them, one and all, to attend a negotiating session if they had questions.

I think that they are being MORE than transparent.

The NHLPA has more transparency now then they have EVER had.

I mean, granted that was not a stretch when you had one president in Eagleson conspiring with owners to screw the players.

Then you had an idiot in Goodenow offer up a 24% rollback concession.

You guys can paint Fehr as this secretive person that is misleading the players, but you could not be more wrong.

He was hired because he was the best man for the job. He took the job on the condition that anyone at any time can be informed as to what is going on at the NHLPA's HQ.

You may not like Fehr, but to paint him as something he is not is disingenous at best.
The way Fehr has explained some details of the NHL's proposals and of the player's proposals make me wonder if he is giving them correct information or if I'm understanding the information incorrectly. But in any case, giving an open invitation for all players to attend isn't true transparency. TRUE transparency is providing information accurately without any spins to persuade players to think a certain a way. In fairness, perhaps Bettman could be guilty of doing the exact same thing - spinning details so that the owners keep with his course of action.

Truth is, we're all sitting on the outside and the only people who know how transparent they're being with their constituents are Bettman/Daly and the Fehr brothers.

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