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Are the Oilers totally screwed without a new arena?

View Poll Results: Are the Oilers as good as dead without a new arena?
The Oilers cannot survive without a new arena. 60 52.17%
The Oilers can survive without a new arena, but they will never be a success. 21 18.26%
Forget it. The Oilers are doomed, arena or no arena. 4 3.48%
Oilers will be fine either way. 30 26.09%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-25-2012, 12:37 PM
  #51
joestevens29
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meter parking is free and most parking lots are empty after 6pm. With most games starting well afterwards parking should not be an issue.
Ya, how long is that going to last. There is talk about changes on parking meters and I won't be shocked to see parking meters being paid 24 hours in the near future.

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10-25-2012, 12:39 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Simple really, make the playoffs, stop spending so much on management/coaching that you eventually fire and have to pay anyways.

Also not paying your 3rd line center 5mil probably helps as does not paying a guy 5mil to play in the AHL
You know they were paying Hall, Eberle, and RNH all around 1M last year right?(Unless they hit their bonuses)

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10-25-2012, 12:45 PM
  #53
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You know they were paying Hall, Eberle, and RNH all around 1M last year right?(Unless they hit their bonuses)
And? They will be paying them the same this year if there is a season to be had.

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10-25-2012, 12:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
And? They will be paying them the same this year if there is a season to be had.
Next year it'll go up significantly though, Katz isn't looking to this year or next year he has to look at what will keep the Oilers Sustainable for the next 35 years.

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10-25-2012, 01:01 PM
  #55
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Next year it'll go up significantly though, Katz isn't looking to this year or next year he has to look at what will keep the Oilers Sustainable for the next 35 years.
And Bulin, Whitney come off the books. Horcoffs salary drops, Smyth is making less.

Again make the playoffs. In 06 each game was worth 1mil, what's that worth today?

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10-25-2012, 01:14 PM
  #56
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Before talking down to everyone you might want to look at Winnpeg's subsidies. Its kind of funny to be so sure of yourself when you are wrong. Winnipeg currently gets more then Katz asked city council for
Winnipeg gets $5.5 Million from VLTs, money that would normally go to the province. Katz asked the city for $6M from an unknown revenue source.

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10-25-2012, 01:31 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
And Bulin, Whitney come off the books. Horcoffs salary drops, Smyth is making less.

Again make the playoffs. In 06 each game was worth 1mil, what's that worth today?
The point is, in order to keep this core together were going to be spending to the cap each year. If your fine with letting all of Edmonton's talent walk like pre 2005 then fine thats you. Id rather see us able to build a strong contender for a lot of years. And its probably worth less now because minimum wage has gone up significantly over the last 6 years. I think it was around 6.25 an hour the last time we were in the playoffs. It's now over 10 I believe.

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10-25-2012, 06:06 PM
  #58
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Oiler fans are screwed, we get ten more years of melodrama.

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10-25-2012, 08:33 PM
  #59
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NO,they are going to get an arena soon.

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10-25-2012, 09:54 PM
  #60
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Next year it'll go up significantly though, Katz isn't looking to this year or next year he has to look at what will keep the Oilers Sustainable for the next 35 years.
So why not bring up the subsidy in the original financing framework?

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10-25-2012, 10:09 PM
  #61
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Winnipeg gets $5.5 Million from VLTs, money that would normally go to the province. Katz asked the city for $6M from an unknown revenue source.
Are you suggesting that the Community Revitalization Levy is an unknown revenue source? Or are you indicating the source is being kept a secret?

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10-25-2012, 10:14 PM
  #62
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So why not bring up the subsidy in the original financing framework?
This is the part that bugs me the most.

Sure, coming up with the rest of the money has been a battle for over a year, but we have been working off roughly the same framework.

Then at the last minute the guy asks for another 6 million, takes tripes to Seattle, and won't even show up when councel meets?

Seems as though he could have played that out much better than he did.

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10-26-2012, 01:44 AM
  #63
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So why not bring up the subsidy in the original financing framework?
It probably was one of the open issues they were still negotiating at the time that council voted on the arena moving forward. As I said in the other thread we shouldn't even know about these details. Caterina is doing his best to try and sour this deal.

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10-26-2012, 07:57 AM
  #64
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I say yes but they can survive a few more years without one. I also don't understand why it 'needs' to be built while the economy is hot. Most of the time, when the economy is slow and perhaps on the decline.. everything is cheaper. Best case scenario is for the economy to dip and the dollar to be strong for a new arena development. I work in the housing market and over the years, that's what I've witnessed and seen. A hot economy is good for the job market and that's about it. When it goes down (and it will) this city will be more open to a new arena.. or any type of development.

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10-26-2012, 08:48 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Are you suggesting that the Community Revitalization Levy is an unknown revenue source?
The CRL is intended to be used to pay down the debt on the arena. Taking money from that and funneling it into the Oilers operations in perpetuity is a significant shift from its original purpose. My understanding of CRLs is that they are temporary measures, as they are drawn from taxes levied on new developments. Once the arena debt is paid down and those developments max out, continuing to charge a higher tax rate would, IMO, be unfair and counter productive.

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Or are you indicating the source is being kept a secret?
I wasn't aware the source of the non-casino subsidy money was specified. Do you have a link?

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10-26-2012, 08:51 AM
  #66
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I say yes but they can survive a few more years without one. I also don't understand why it 'needs' to be built while the economy is hot. Most of the time, when the economy is slow and perhaps on the decline.. everything is cheaper. Best case scenario is for the economy to dip and the dollar to be strong for a new arena development. I work in the housing market and over the years, that's what I've witnessed and seen. A hot economy is good for the job market and that's about it. When it goes down (and it will) this city will be more open to a new arena.. or any type of development.
Problem is, when times are tough spending public money on sports facilities becomes a much trickier proposition, politically speaking.

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10-26-2012, 09:01 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
The CRL is intended to be used to pay down the debt on the arena. Taking money from that and funneling it into the Oilers operations in perpetuity is a significant shift from its original purpose. My understanding of CRLs is that they are temporary measures, as they are drawn from taxes levied on new developments. Once the arena debt is paid down and those developments max out, continuing to charge a higher tax rate would, IMO, be unfair and counter productive.



I wasn't aware the source of the non-casino subsidy money was specified. Do you have a link?
And also if the city moves into the proposed office tower, that part of the CRL goes out the window which would be huge. I'm pretty sure the city paying the city shouldn't be included in any benefit it provides.

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10-26-2012, 12:45 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
The CRL is intended to be used to pay down the debt on the arena. Taking money from that and funneling it into the Oilers operations in perpetuity is a significant shift from its original purpose. My understanding of CRLs is that they are temporary measures, as they are drawn from taxes levied on new developments. Once the arena debt is paid down and those developments max out, continuing to charge a higher tax rate would, IMO, be unfair and counter productive.



I wasn't aware the source of the non-casino subsidy money was specified. Do you have a link?
After the $6M request was leaked, Katz had an interview in which he described in detail the exact reasoning and funding sources. I posted it here, but people chose to ignore it.

The entire project is funded through the CRL. The potential tax revenue was calculated over some 30 years or so to find out what could be reasonably spent on the arena while safely being able to recoup that spending. Essentially, under this method, the city would not pay a dime that wouldn't be repaid through the CRL. From my understanding, and there are no numbers that I'm aware of, the CRL was intentionally underestimated by Katz to ensure viability. Not only that, but the underestimated revenue amount vastly exceeds what is being used to construct the arena. This means that $6M Katz asked for is backed by his own project and essentially guarantees the city receives all investment back from it. This is what makes the entire thing ridiculous to me.

The city is all but guaranteed their investment AND more with the CRL even with Katz $6M request, and yet they stonewalled him. And instead of explaining it to the taxpayers so they could understand the dynamics of the arrangement, they allowed it to be seen as if Katz was stealing money from their pockets.

And to top it all off, the city loses. It was against their best interest to say no. No arena = no CRL. So, all that says to me is the big interests at play here have nothing to do with the city's and taxpayer's interest and everything to do with outside influence. Yeah, Northlands. Great bunch over there.

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10-26-2012, 12:56 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
After the $6M request was leaked, Katz had an interview in which he described in detail the exact reasoning and funding sources. I posted it here, but people chose to ignore it.

The entire project is funded through the CRL. The potential tax revenue was calculated over some 30 years or so to find out what could be reasonably spent on the arena while safely being able to recoup that spending. Essentially, under this method, the city would not pay a dime that wouldn't be repaid through the CRL. From my understanding, and there are no numbers that I'm aware of, the CRL was intentionally underestimated by Katz to ensure viability. Not only that, but the underestimated revenue amount vastly exceeds what is being used to construct the arena. This means that $6M Katz asked for is backed by his own project and essentially guarantees the city receives all investment back from it. This is what makes the entire thing ridiculous to me.

The city is all but guaranteed their investment AND more with the CRL even with Katz $6M request, and yet they stonewalled him. And instead of explaining it to the taxpayers so they could understand the dynamics of the arrangement, they allowed it to be seen as if Katz was stealing money from their pockets.

And to top it all off, the city loses. It was against their best interest to say no. No arena = no CRL. So, all that says to me is the big interests at play here have nothing to do with the city's and taxpayer's interest and everything to do with outside influence. Yeah, Northlands. Great bunch over there.
Ive seen some crazy **** posted here over the years but I think this tops them all.

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10-26-2012, 01:19 PM
  #70
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Ive seen some crazy **** posted here over the years but I think this tops them all.
If you don't think Northlands is playing a huge role in these negotiations, you are being naive.

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10-26-2012, 01:21 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Problem is, when times are tough spending public money on sports facilities becomes a much trickier proposition, politically speaking.
Although what you just said is correct, all the city has to do is reword the entire situation for it to be worked out and agreed upon. They'd be willing to spur any kind of growth when there is a lack there of or even a negative one at that. Then again... we're talking about The City of Edmonton's City Council. They like to get snip done when inflation is inflated and when the economy is booming. Twenty third interchange ring a bell...


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10-26-2012, 02:47 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The city is all but guaranteed their investment AND more with the CRL even with Katz $6M request, and yet they stonewalled him. And instead of explaining it to the taxpayers so they could understand the dynamics of the arrangement, they allowed it to be seen as if Katz was stealing money from their pockets.
Nope, City estimates show them making almost exactly the same out of the CRL as they've invested in the zone. If Katz has different projections his failure to come forward and show them after council invited him to do so is what has brought us to the current situation. He's been trying to weasel his way out of contributing to the arena since day one and everyone knows it with the pay $100 million to the project, oops that wasnt for the arena scandal.

He stands to make a ton of money on this deal, both through the arena and through the real estate surrounding it. The city has other expense they need to pay for the area including a lot of infrastructure upgrades. It's clear that with the increased revenue in the new arena and getting all the revenue from other events and the advertising payment from the city he should be able to sustain the Oilers indefinitely. If he has numbers that show otherwise he once again could have brought those to council but refused. It's virtually impossible for anyone to have sympathy for Katz here. Staples at the Journal has turned against him and he was practically the guys biggest fanboy. Jason Gregor is at best neutral, especially after he had several people from the city come on and explain what has happened. The only media personality supporting him is Bob "on the payroll" Stauffer. That has to tell you something with the softball lobbing Edmonton media.

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