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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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Old
10-29-2012, 02:21 PM
  #226
sjaustin77
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
I think most people are for the players theres a few people for the owners who have made valid points in my opinion. But everything you have mentioned/brought up in this post is never going to sway peoples minds. You start pointing out the millions of dollars the owners are still going to make and the pro-ownership crowd will come back with a "well they got 57 % of the hrr so the 50-50 is still good for the players since they make so much money" or they bring up "well 18 teams didn't make money last year" and I don't think these people are going to change their mind. Just like the people who are pro-players won't change their minds on how greedy the owners are. I think the owners won the last cba, and got pretty much everything they wanted but still couldn't differentiate between revenues and profits. And also I think with owners losing money shouldn't fall on the players shoulders. The thought of "they should be happy to be millionaires" theory sounds awesome to us regular folk, but when you're bosses make double your money and then cry poor mouth and want more from you it says a lot about where this sport is, and will be going in the future.
That isn't the sentiment that I got once the owners made their 50/50 offer. And your last sentence is what I really don't get. People say they should be happy they are millionaires and they make enough money. Yet the owners are billionaires and that is who we should have sympathy for? The players aren't crying poor at all. The owners are. The players aren't getting anything out of this deal. Only the owners are.

I think people misunderstand my position. I don't want 57% for the players though I think I have shown that it could have worked and in fact did give the NHL record revenue, profits, franchise values & TV deal, despite many owners spending like idiots. I want 50/50 but I want owners to honor current contracts.

I'm really not trying to sway anyone's mind. What i actually want is for someone to show me how I am wrong, show me why I should like the owners proposal. I have an open mind. In fact I really don't care if the players play for free, I just want to watch NHL hockey.

If someone can show me among other things:

That more than a couple of teams are truly in trouble... (profit & franchise value)
that it is the players fault they are in trouble...
that taking from the players is the only solution...
how the players offer wasn't enough...
what the owners are giving up in these "negotiations"...
how taking from the "poor" (millionaires) to give more to the "rich" (billionaires) is fair...

Start with those.

Show me why I should take the owners side and that they shouldn't honor the current contracts.

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10-29-2012, 06:32 PM
  #227
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Heated though they have become at times, these threads were informative and entertaining and cathartic.

Too bad they've been destroyed.

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:16 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
If someone can show me among other things:

That more than a couple of teams are truly in trouble... (profit & franchise value)
that it is the players fault they are in trouble...
They're not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
that taking from the players is the only solution...
It isn't the entire solution - but it IS part of the solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
how the players offer wasn't enough...
I don't think it was that they players' offer wasn't enough (at least from MY perspective). I just don't think that offers from EITHER side at this point have attacked the problem in a coherent way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
what the owners are giving up in these "negotiations"...
I haven't seen a single damn thing. From the media-reported proposals, to ones offered up by 99% of fans. The rationale of "the players should just take it" would apply to any offer proposed. 25% of revenues? "the players should just take it" Don't agree with that argument at ALL. In my (albeit far more shallow) proposals, I've never hit even the 50/50 mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
how taking from the "poor" (millionaires) to give more to the "rich" (billionaires) is fair...
It's not a matter of "fair." Wahwahwah... It's not FAIR.

It's identifying the problems the league face and DEALING with them. Which I don't think is happening.

The poster-team for this lockout is NOT the small market club that is losing money. It's the Pittsburgh Penguins. Annually successful team with the world's most explosive and entertaining talent leading the charge. And they (basically) broke even last year. The Pens and 22 other teams who golf for par season after season...

THAT needs to be addressed and it doesn't seem as though it's even part of the discussion.

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10-29-2012, 09:49 PM
  #229
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Are they even in contact anymore? I haven't heard a peep in a while.

I think we're going to lose the season.

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10-29-2012, 09:54 PM
  #230
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This sucks.

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10-29-2012, 09:54 PM
  #231
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Are they even in contact anymore? I haven't heard a peep in a while.

I think we're going to lose the season.
All of the optimistic time estimates have me scratching my head.

I don't think they've even really attacked what they need to. And I don't think a deal can be made between two sides who have such a distaste for each other. If they don't start working TOGETHER (like they did in the last lockout), I don't see how a deal is possible.

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10-29-2012, 10:21 PM
  #232
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getting to the point where i feel who cares if there a season.

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10-29-2012, 10:47 PM
  #233
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getting to the point where i feel who cares if there a season.
I wish I couldn‘t care. I‘m such a god damn sap.

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10-29-2012, 11:00 PM
  #234
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I wish I couldn‘t care. I‘m such a god damn sap.
Agreed.


but I'm starting to realize that this season will most likely be canceled all together. None of these people seem to have any urgency on getting a deal done. Therefore nothing good is coming out of it.

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Old
10-29-2012, 11:13 PM
  #235
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I would give a kidney and my left nut for a season.

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10-30-2012, 12:13 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by I LOVE DONNYBROOKS View Post
I would give a kidney and my left nut for a season.
I would to and I already lost my right nut in a baseball accident, actually no I wouldn't give that much as I someday want to have kids. But there are very few things I wouldn't give up for a season.

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10-30-2012, 12:41 AM
  #237
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There isn't much broken about the current CBA. The owners are the ones that screwed it up. A salary cap is only there for parity not for making profit. The owners screwed that up because the higher spending teams still have advantages when competing for players. Owners will still overspend their budgets, and the owners aren't willing to share more profits. They only want to take from the players.

If you want something where everyone is guaranteed money and to be competitive then why not make every team spend the same amount. Every player starts at minimum salary through the year and then split all profits equally among owners and players. Players get a share in the franchise value gain. So the players profits of $1.65B & the owners profits of $126M = ~$2.4M for each player and owner. Every player & owner gets an additional ~$500k in franchise value gain. Every team gets to bid equally on every player, every player and owner makes about $3M/year.

That doesn't work because while everyone making the same amount seems "fair" there is such a disparity in talent and ownership that they should make different amounts and no one should be guaranteed any profit. So we are back to the current system. All it needs is tweaking not a huge cut to the players and current contracts should be honored.
i like debating with you... so ill go at it again. you answered some stuff in the body of my last post so ill try to deal with it first.

the first think jumps out is you ask me why i suggest it might be wise to cut the arena deals out of the 'increased value equation. These are ONE TIME ONLY benefits that by fluke chance fell into the last 15 years or so time frame for most franchises. Now most franchises will not get a new arena again in the next 20-40 years. If the arena is the MAIN reason the value of the franchise went up, then it would be WRONG to say that this is normal under the business plan and will be expected to keep happening. My position is that if you take out the increase in franchise value that is directly attributed to ONE TIME benefits like arenas/new uniforms and from tax payer subsidies, then the actual increase in value of most teams in neglible to non-existient. In fact using forbes numbers over the past 3 years... theres been almost 0 growth in franchise values for any of the bottom 10 markets. You seem to feel that the bottom ten markets might loose yearly proffits but they will get it back from franchise values but this is simply not the case. Many of these bottom teams have been dropping in value under this past CBA.

Again... i dont and you dont and probably no one else worries about whether toronto or montreal or new york or even boston can make money under this cba or any cba... but i will say again and again and again that the bottom teams really are going broke.. really are losing 100s of millions of dollars for their owners... really are being major drains on the cities that host these teams and none of this burden is being shared by the players. Maybe the cap has to be done away with? I support that ida... but if theres going to be a cap then the revenue split has to become reasonable to let owners make a reasonable profit. Maybe some owner support might be possible, but thats really up to them. If they refuse and would rather shut down the league then that tells you something. It isn the players that want to shut down. THEY LOVE THIS PAST CBA and would gladly keep playing. The owners are shutting down cause this past CBA killed them and its better to lose a season then continue under it. Actions speak louder then words.

Speaking of actions... you say Minnesota value of franchise has increased by X millions since Leopold bought it. I will reply that franchie value is only established at time of sale. You might be right... you might be wrong. You are probably using forbes numbers. i have never seen forbes numbers be an official pricetag. they are just an educated guess. I use forbes numbers too cause i dont know of any better source for a guess as to whats going on.. but its only a guess.

real sales numbers in recent years of bottom 10 teams has not been going up... and its been a struggle to find new owners most markets. Alot of shady people got approved cause legitimate mainstream billionares dont want to touch these teams anymore. No past owner is holding a press conference and saying he made so much money last time, that he is just dying to own a team again. Some owners that dont mind losing money do own multiple teams... in various sports. They have huge egos. A guy like Mark Cuban is willing to be fined a million dollars just so he can throw a chair. He has the money. He can choose to do that. I wouldnt, but he can and he does. Thats how it is. Some sports owners are willing to lose money to please their ego. I guess maybe you dont believe it.. but its true. The only question then becomes how much are they WILLING TO LOSE and how much can they AFFORD TO LOSE. Ultimately, weve all seen franchises move... to disolve... leagues to die... there is a limit. The owners of the NHL are shutting down the season right now. They are at their limit.

speaking of limits you said a few times owners are spending over their budgets and this seams to be where you blame the problem. This position of yours BAFFLES ME. I have been a sports fan for over 35 years. I HAVE NEVER SEEN FANS SAY 'im glad my team stuck to a budget this year. ' in fact, fans say 'THEY WERE TOO CHEAP TO WIN... IM NOT SUPPORTING THEM ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

If the opportunity is there for a team to spend... it MUST SPEND. If it doesnt spend, the fans get disillusioned. Owners are a slave to the expectations of the fans. Its so ironic owners are getting killed for being 'greedy' and you are killing them for throwing away too much money... poor poor owners cant seem to win on this one.

either they are greedy or they give the players more money then they should out of some sort of stupidity... but its not both. I would say, its neither. Owners give the big checks because its demanded by the fans... and the only way to please their egos is to have the fans happy and a winning team... which usually takes money.

taxpayers pay tons and tons and tons btw. Just in the cost of the arenas alone most cities have ponied up at least 100 mill to the team sometime in the last 20 years. Then theres the yearly breaks on taxes... theres the deals in the cities for parking and naming rights on city owned buildings... there management fees for arenas in a few places... theres casino deals... rezoning bonuses for adjacent land... theres lotteries... and i could probably name many other sources of subsidy and handout if i had the time. Id be shocked if these numbers didnt add up to well over 500 million a year to the leage as a whole averaged out annually. That number might go down now that most arenas have been build and phoenix is coming off the books... but you say that owner profits should include the paper increase of franchise value, so i say they should not include this very real hijacking of the taxpayers to inflate the bottom line numbers. Without these tax benefits all that profit you want to attribute to the owners becomes a big crater.

Which brings me back to my main argument again... even if the numbers were cooked last year to show that there was 3.3 bill in revenues... that doesnt mean us taxpayers should continue to finance a huge gob of it. But if we didnt, then the NHL would be out of business. 57% of 3.3 is already killing the owners. 57% of 2.8 would kill everything. I want that 3.3 to become a much more realistic calculated 2.8 so us taxpayers can stop supporting this joke... and then let the owners make enough to stay in business please. Is that so hard to do?

the players would still split up 1.4 bill under my revised numbers... its still 2 mill almost per player. It is still way way way way good money. I might argue that 3rd liners arent worth it... but its still so much money that they will get it anyhow whether they are worth it or not.

Anyhow, you dont seem willing to believe that there is a reason why owners would want to claim the league is healtier then is really is to 'sucker in new investors' for the 10-12 teams constantly up for sale that I say exist. you seem to think that they are just willy nilly willing to shut down the league for a season even while making tons of profit and having their franchise values go to all time record highs despite a shutdown killing sponsors and running up huge costs without much revenues to cover these costs during the course of the shutdown.

you readily say the owners will break the spirit of any cba that does get signed to continue to overpay the players... and yet you seem freaked that the owners want to put in some controls on themselves that they cant break. You seem to think owners should take profits from some teams that paid a fortune for their franchise {and are owned by corporations with shareholders to account for} and then give it to poor teams that are being killed under the collective agrement... and yet i doubt youd think that overpaid players like gomez and redden and company should donate any of their money to share with underpaid players in their union.

you just seem to really really really be against the owners. Doing research is hard. I had to spend a couple hours on it the other night. I found real history that backs up my observvations of what has happened. I dont need to speculate the hidden agenda going on. The teams really do get sold again and again and no owners rebuy teams. They sure as hell dont hold press conferences saying what huge profits they are making.

the guy in new york says he loses 200 mill... the guys in atlanta say they lost their shirts. the guys in tampa went broke and got into all sorts of law suits. the guys in nashville have been scrambling for investors... the guy in pheonix got his team taken away and no one is stepping up to buy it. the guys in san jose are claiming a 17 million dollar loss this year. disney which is a greedy greedy company sold off the ducks and was estatic to wash their hands of that money losing operation. Wayne Hulzinga who loves to be a greedy money guy sold off all his teams crying about how much he lost on them.

theres just so many cases you can look around and see where the owners simply arent making any money and they say so, but you dont want to trust them. Actions do speak loudest. If you do some research and show me where any of these owners come back and buy teams then Ill be impressed. I know I cant find any. I can definitely find a dozen or more over the past 5-10 years that ran as fast as they can and never looked back though.

actions speak loud here. Players are willing to play under the old cba. Owners arent. You can say that they are both stupid. that the players got hurt last time and thus shouldnt agree to do it again... that the owners are making out like bandits and should be slobbering all over themselves to continue... but actions speak

the reality is the players are willing to play.. their contracts are the highest they ever were. they are getting filthy filthy money. the owners continue to lose just as much under this past cba as they did before it. only a small handful of teams can make money without a lengthy playoff run every year. those handful of teams are NOT going to pony up the revenue sharing you want them to in order to keep the players at 57% and i dont blame them one little bit personally.

the economic model has to be fixed and the owners are willing to lose a season to make it happen. Losing a season wins them a war. None of us have to like it... but if we fail to face the reality then we have only ourselves to blame when we lose the season.

the true stupid thing in all this.. is the players have no benefit to gain from their current stance. they will end up at 50-50. they seem worried that they might lose that missing 7% of promised current contracts which at most equals around 150 million dollars or so that might not be payable if the 50-50 split goes into effect immediately.

150 million divided by 700 union members equals around 200k per member. The union is willing to walk away from an entire season over the chance they might lose 200 k per average player when the average salary is around 2.5 million.

sitting out a month will lose them more then that 200k. so on a chance that the promised contracts might not be paid in full... the players are choosing to lose a month or more of real games. the 50-50 split will come or the owners will break the union... that part isnt really up for negotiation at all.

the only fight left is how does the 50-50 split happen. If the season gets lost... then future revenue pies will be drastically smaller for awhile. the owners will still do ok, because they sucked now... sucking then is no worst/no better. The players though have it fabulously good now. They will have it much less good after their union gets busted and brought to its knees.

Jmiller wrote... whats to stop the owners from going to 45% next time? If they need to... they will. But ultimately the owners are very egotistical and dont mind overspending for stuff that they enjoy. Owners will spend on wine... cars... homes... sports teams. They will get a 50-50 split then do everything possible to give the players more.

Jmiller seems to think the poor players are going to get screwed by going to 50% then maybe to 45% next time. But the players wont get screwed. It went from 70% to 57% this past cba and the players got way more money. If this is considered being screwed... then please do me next.

The owners will still hand out 100 million dollar contracts if its possible even after gettign there 50-50 split but the only hope they have is that teams in places like phoenix and atlanta and florida and columbus can continue to exist and employ nearly 100 unionized players... and maybe the economic model will allow expansion into toronto and quebec to create another 50 new union jobs on top of that???

the owners arent saying they dont want to keep ripping us taxpayers off... thats me that says that. and again i think that has to happen as the next shoe that drops. but for now get the players under control and then us taxpayers can worry about the owners. when the final dust settles, im a hockey fan. i need my hockey. i will pay my support to the system to get it. i hope this league survives and i dont care if my heroes get paid alot of money if the money is there... but first and foremost i want this league to survive and i dont want it to be at the expense of the taxpayers in general.

right now... that just isnt the case... the league is headed down the dark path and dragging the taxpayers with it

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10-30-2012, 05:09 AM
  #238
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I would give a kidney and my left nut for a season.
No owner or player would so why should you?

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10-30-2012, 06:45 AM
  #239
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Are they even in contact anymore? I haven't heard a peep in a while.

I think we're going to lose the season.
Unfortunately i see this happening as well. After the players didn't wanna take the 50/50 split and the owners shot down 3 proposals i had a feeling that is was a lost cause. Now that the owners don't even wanna have a meeting even the players have different proposals, it pretty much means the season is gone.

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10-30-2012, 08:18 AM
  #240
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I'm at the point where I don't really care if we do lose the season

Then I remember that would mean no hockey until late September of next year. Yikes. Hopefully a deal is done by late December

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10-30-2012, 08:55 AM
  #241
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No owner or player would so why should you?
Because I love the game too damn much

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10-30-2012, 08:58 AM
  #242
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Because I love the game too damn much
Good enough for me. You do realize in about 6-7 years you'll have to give up some more body parts? Heck if your young enough you may be just an empty fleshy shell by the time the NHL/NHLPA is done with you.

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10-30-2012, 10:30 AM
  #243
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getting to the point where i feel who cares if there a season.
same here.
Im so mad that i hope the whole league folds and these tards can stay playing overseas.

If the whole season is canned i really hope fans dont come back this time. I know i am definitely not coming back.

94 ad 05 were different. I dont miss it as much this time around. Its more anger at these guys.

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10-30-2012, 10:31 AM
  #244
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That isn't the sentiment that I got once the owners made their 50/50 offer. And your last sentence is what I really don't get. People say they should be happy they are millionaires and they make enough money. Yet the owners are billionaires and that is who we should have sympathy for? The players aren't crying poor at all. The owners are. The players aren't getting anything out of this deal. Only the owners are.

I think people misunderstand my position. I don't want 57% for the players though I think I have shown that it could have worked and in fact did give the NHL record revenue, profits, franchise values & TV deal, despite many owners spending like idiots. I want 50/50 but I want owners to honor current contracts.

I'm really not trying to sway anyone's mind. What i actually want is for someone to show me how I am wrong, show me why I should like the owners proposal. I have an open mind. In fact I really don't care if the players play for free, I just want to watch NHL hockey.

If someone can show me among other things:

That more than a couple of teams are truly in trouble... (profit & franchise value)
that it is the players fault they are in trouble...
that taking from the players is the only solution...
how the players offer wasn't enough...
what the owners are giving up in these "negotiations"...
how taking from the "poor" (millionaires) to give more to the "rich" (billionaires) is fair...

Start with those.

Show me why I should take the owners side and that they shouldn't honor the current contracts.
I'm not saying you should.. I'm pro-player. But there is a sentiment of people who are "players should stop *****ing, they're millionaires".

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10-30-2012, 11:10 AM
  #245
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IMO the worst part of the prospects of losing a season is the fact the Bruins are a bona fide Cup contender. Why couldn't this happen in the "Dave Lewis Era", as brief as that was!?

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10-30-2012, 11:23 AM
  #246
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I wish I couldn‘t care. I‘m such a god damn sap.
Me too.

Also bored as hell.

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10-30-2012, 12:05 PM
  #247
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Is there anything stopping the owners from using replacement players like MLB and NFL did?

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10-30-2012, 12:13 PM
  #248
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I love hockey not just NHL hockey and thats what this lockout is showing me. I have been going to some EJHL/AJHL games and enjoying that. Screw the NHL at this point.

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10-30-2012, 12:19 PM
  #249
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I love hockey not just NHL hockey and thats what this lockout is showing me. I have been going to some EJHL/AJHL games and enjoying that. Screw the NHL at this point.
That's my feeling. I'm going to go to as many Monarchs games as time/money allows and then listen to either them or Provi on the radio. If AHL Live didn't stink I would buy like a 10 game pack. After the initial withdrawls I'm doing just fine w/o NHL games.

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10-30-2012, 02:01 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Rhoshambeau View Post
Is there anything stopping the owners from using replacement players like MLB and NFL did?
Two things:

1. Who do you get as replacements? Local beer leaguers?

2. What would be fans' response to being charged regular ticket prices to watch local beer leaguers?

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