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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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Old
11-05-2012, 03:20 PM
  #476
Ludwig Fell Down
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I'm with the crowd that can't help themselves. Once the season is on, I'll be back and rooting for the B's as always.

Leave it to Charlie Pierce, whom I seldom agree with but often get writing envy from, to summarize more eloquently than I could:

What I miss most about hockey are the different ways things look, and the different ways things sound. There is nothing in sports like walking out into an arena in which everything is dark except for the gleaming sheet of ice below. Nothing sounds quite like the hiss of the blades, and the different sounds of the different tiny detonations — a puck onto a stick, a puck onto the glass, a puck onto the boards, a body into the boards — that make up the action. They are all sharp and varied, like the argumentative calls of exotic crows. What I miss most about hockey are the many ways it is so different from everything else. Everything is so damned vivid.

I am not even the greatest of hockey fans, but I know this one thing: Outside of NASCAR fans — who are outliers in so many ways, including, alas, which way many of them would have been rooting at Gettysburg — hockey fans have a more intimate relationship with their sport than do any other fans.


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...chs-ahl-hockey

Not surprisingly, Pierce puts 100% of the blame on the owners. Still a good read no matter which party you side with.

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11-05-2012, 03:26 PM
  #477
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As a hockey fan, I'm restraining myself from getting overly hopeful.

As someone who works near the Garden and knows a lot of people in the area who just realized losing October was a hit (restaurant owners are getting hit the most - their bills and expenses mostly stay the same), I'm excited for them because it will relieve a ton of stress no matter when the season starts.

I'll buy DKH a beer when he's right.
The folks who need the work to pay their bills are the ones whom I feel really bad for.

They lost half the basketball season last year...

I also hope Dan is correct. See you at the Garden soon...

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11-05-2012, 03:43 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Ludwig Fell Down View Post
I'm with the crowd that can't help themselves. Once the season is on, I'll be back and rooting for the B's as always.

Leave it to Charlie Pierce, whom I seldom agree with but often get writing envy from, to summarize more eloquently than I could:

What I miss most about hockey are the different ways things look, and the different ways things sound. There is nothing in sports like walking out into an arena in which everything is dark except for the gleaming sheet of ice below. Nothing sounds quite like the hiss of the blades, and the different sounds of the different tiny detonations — a puck onto a stick, a puck onto the glass, a puck onto the boards, a body into the boards — that make up the action. They are all sharp and varied, like the argumentative calls of exotic crows. What I miss most about hockey are the many ways it is so different from everything else. Everything is so damned vivid.

I am not even the greatest of hockey fans, but I know this one thing: Outside of NASCAR fans — who are outliers in so many ways, including, alas, which way many of them would have been rooting at Gettysburg — hockey fans have a more intimate relationship with their sport than do any other fans.


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...chs-ahl-hockey

Not surprisingly, Pierce puts 100% of the blame on the owners. Still a good read no matter which party you side with.
Great article, thanks for linking.

If you read about the history of the NHL (and other pro leagues for that matter) it's amazing that there have been so many incompetent/malicious/clueless idiots in positions of power. When you're a kid, you think those people are, well, grownups. Then you grow up and realize they're not.

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11-05-2012, 03:49 PM
  #479
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I was doing OK without the NHL up until I caught a replay of Game 2 vs Philly in 2011 on NESN the other night. I was getting my hockey fix from UNH games. Then I watched that game and it hit me how much I miss NHL/Playoff hockey...

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11-05-2012, 04:05 PM
  #480
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The "bottom feeder teams" at the start of the last cba ( the lowest 5 franchises in value) were Calgary, Nashville, pittsburg, Atlanta and Washington.
Calgary went from 135 to 220mil
Nashville went from 134 to 163 mil
Pitt went from being valued at 133 to 264 mil
Atlanta went from 128 to being sold for 170 and currently valued at 164mil
Washington went from 127 to 225mil


The last CBA has been very good to the bottom feeders.
i guess id argue that the origional premise here is that team values are going up... and by extension will continue to go up. that the owners should be forced to factor this into their thinking when they cry poor.

my argument i set out to show is that some teams did go up in value in the past. Its dumb to say they didnt. The numbers are the numbers. But I hoped everyone can see the numbers with more then just a blind math test. It is more then just A-B=C

There is an assumption that the old rules of the CBA were contributing directly to the increase of franchise value and that is why the owners were crying poor when they werent really suffering at all.

so maybe between things like arena deals and a reduction from 70+% hrr to 54% there was some increase in some teams values going back to the starting point of this last cba going into effect. Your choice of bottom feeder teams is only the teams at the bottom of forbes valuation. obviously those markets are very strong markets. if they were at the bottom of forbes then its obvious they were ready to bloom no matter what cba was brought in. they were not bad markets inheriently.

so im not prepared to say tht this past cba was the reason they increased in value. i might say that the last cba just sucked way way more then the current one does. the current one though has the escaltor. what started as 54% hrr when your increase of valuation took place... became 57% when my complete slowdown/reversal took effect

and again.. the argument here is what can owners expect in the future? will they continue to be forced to sell teams because they suffer 100 million in loses and only see an increase of 10-15 mill in franchise value? i think thats the reality here. I think that whatever valuation increases happened... were a one time correction that can be directly attributed to alot of other factors that arent going to be part of the near future. i think that strong healthy markets will go up whether theres a good cba or not. This lockout isnt being done to help those markets though. No one is saying that Toronto or Calgary even needs the help. No one is saying Boston or Philadelphia needs the help.

Maybe they are saying Minnesota does? and maybe Leopold could be a rallying point that he handed out big contracts and is a leader on the player side now. But in his case he had to play by the rules as they existed. he has a chance now to change the rules. he will still live by the rules however they are when the dust settles. he did only what he could. he wasnt acting in a vacuum. he had to follow the rules as they existed

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11-05-2012, 04:16 PM
  #481
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one issue i have had with how donald fehr catagorizes the 'make whole provision' as being funded by the players...

ALL PLAYER COMP IS FUNDED BY THE PLAYERS!!!!

what i mean is the players under the old CBA got 57% of HRR... no more/no less. if the players individual salaries added up to more then this... it was corrected
if the players individual salaries added up to less... it was corrected

the slice of pie the players got... was always 57%... and any individual pieces they get are parts of this same 57%. If player A gets a bigger individual slice then players b to zzzzz all get smaller pieces. This is very very simple math.

this brings us to an interesting moral dilema. if the players that have current contracts are demanding they be paid in full... then there is no way around the reality that it will come out of the other players pockets. even if the owners were willing to make the pie bigger... it always comes out of the other players pockets.

players say rich owners should fund shortfalls for poor owners... but does any player ever say please dont overpay me cause it comes out of the pocket of my poorer paid comrads in the union? They dont like to face this reality... but it is reality and no they dont say that.

when they sign their individual contracts its greedy greedy greedy. they justify it by saying they are taking it from the owners, but in reality they are taking it from the 50-57% of money that they bargained for in the CBA and its coming from the other players. The owners are on the hook for it before that individual contract was ever signed. It is now just a question of how do the players split up what is already theirs

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11-05-2012, 04:17 PM
  #482
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at the end of the day the Stanley Cup still belongs in Boston no matter how angry I am at the league and players.

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11-05-2012, 05:01 PM
  #483
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I subscribe to the Lou Gorman approach to this kind of issue.

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11-05-2012, 05:22 PM
  #484
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I subscribe to the Lou Gorman approach to this kind of issue.
"The sun will rise, the sun will set, and I'll have lunch."

Lou was a middling GM, but had a great outlook on life.

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11-05-2012, 05:37 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Ludwig Fell Down View Post
"The sun will rise, the sun will set, and I'll have lunch."

Lou was a middling GM, but had a great outlook on life.
One pitch away from having a statue in Boston.*



*Normal hyperbole, but the general point still stands!

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11-05-2012, 05:37 PM
  #486
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One final NHLPA conference call today before they meet face to face tomorrow (Tuesday). Sounds like Bettman and D. Fehr will be there. Would prefer it was Daly and S Fehr - they seem to get more done.

Heard that there will NOT be another official player proposal tomorrow but a continuation of the negotiations started with S Fehr and Daly. Which is good because there's some common ground. A new proposal would be like starting from scratch again

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11-05-2012, 05:40 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
One final NHLPA conference call today before they meet face to face tomorrow (Tuesday). Sounds like Bettman and D. Fehr will be there. Would prefer it was Daly and S Fehr - they seem to get more done.

Heard that there will NOT be another official player proposal tomorrow but a continuation of the negotiations started with S Fehr and Daly. Which is good because there's some common ground. A new proposal would be like starting from scratch again
All sounds good right up until they can't decide if they want to order Asian for lunch or Pan-Asian.

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Old
11-05-2012, 05:42 PM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
All sounds good right up until they can't decide if they want to order Asian for lunch or Pan-Asian.
Actually not true Mike. They are always in agreement on the menu. They just can't agree on who pays for it

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11-05-2012, 05:45 PM
  #489
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Actually not true Mike. They are always in agreement on the menu. They just can't agree on who pays for it
I heard the players would split the bill, but balked when the owners insisted they pay the tip too.

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11-05-2012, 05:47 PM
  #490
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thanks for this- what a great, great paragraph by Pierce. That is so true. I love all the sports especially the Red Sox and Patriots, but the Bruins (and hockey) are my Tiny Tim.

When I went to Prague and hung out with all these Bruins fans, some I knew, many I didn't I actually realized- wow, all this and hockey too....just the greatest sport to weave in friendships, family, and traveling.

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11-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Ladyfan View Post
The folks who need the work to pay their bills are the ones whom I feel really bad for.

They lost half the basketball season last year...

I also hope Dan is correct. See you at the Garden soon...
well, the thought of Don Fehr and Gary Betman together tomorrow makes me sick. So my opitimism is a bit on hold- but in the end they are going to have to agree eventually, so lets cut the bull **** and act like freaking grownups and not worry about did I bleep him more than he bleeped me.

However, I expect this done by a week from Friday even if Fehr hurls on the offer tomorrow and Betman turns beat red.

The players want to play- they just don't want to get reamed where the sun don't shine.
Many of the powerful owners are freaking old....and these teams beyond the greatest toy they ever had, are TV programs to their cable companies. When you are pushing 80 or already there as two of the most prominent, IMPORTANT (and Gary Betman's bosses), and powerful men like Mike Illitch and Ed Snyder, you do not want to miss this season. I have no idea if the WC can be saved if the deal goes down in less than a week but this could be Illitch's swan song to the great state of Michigan that means the world to this guy.

There are to many people on both sides that want this marriage to work, and the guests (me and you) want to enjoy the party....I'm not going to be happy unless I see that freaking WC on New Years.

Cut the bleep Fehr and Betman and do whats right tomorrow- its election Tuesday and don't go being a aholes and spoiled brats on the most important day of the year and why you two have what you have.

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11-05-2012, 06:14 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Actually not true Mike. They are always in agreement on the menu. They just can't agree on who pays for it
I heard the players don't want any part of helping to pay expenses. They want the owners to pay for the meal and give them their 57% off the top.

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11-05-2012, 06:57 PM
  #493
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I'm really hoping OOG's take is correct. However knowing Fehr and Bettman this progress will all collapse at the slightest thing. I'm still not expecting to see NHL hockey this season. Hoping but not expecting.

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11-05-2012, 07:05 PM
  #494
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I heard the players don't want any part of helping to pay expenses. They want the owners to pay for the meal and give them their 57% off the top.
That doesn't make any sense.

You ruined the analogy.

Go to the box. Feel shame.

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11-05-2012, 07:20 PM
  #495
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That doesn't make any sense.

You ruined the analogy.

Go to the box. Feel shame.
sure it does. players don't care about the increase cost of expense they just want their 57% off the top. makes sense no shame

you said players would split the bill that is what does not make sense. Players have no part in paying for anything expense related.

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11-05-2012, 07:41 PM
  #496
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sure it does. players don't care about the increase cost of expense they just want their 57% off the top. makes sense no shame

you said players would split the bill that is what does not make sense. Players have no part in paying for anything expense related.
Oh good grief Scotto.

Have a drink. Two even.

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11-06-2012, 06:45 AM
  #497
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Some filtered FYI for a Tuesday morning prior to the two sides meeting face to face:

-NHLPA has asked the NHL to put everything discussed by S Fehr and Daly on paper in a formal proposal so that they may "bring it to the membership". That usually means a vote but I think in this case means discussion.

-Both D. Fehr and Bettman will be in attendance today.

-Both sides agree in the HRR definitions.

-Both sides agree on a 50-50 split and a lot of the discussion on the weekend was how to get there.

-Owners will guarantee all current contracts - out of pocket.

There's agreement on the following, but there is going to be some give and take from both sides depending on who has to give up what to get to 50-50 when they want to.

-They agree on ELC (sorry no details)

- NHL has agreed to salary arbitration (wanted it out in last offer) It's binding arbitration for first 5 years of player's service ( no walk away rights for teams) and then switches to non- binding until player reaches UFA (as in last CBA - teams have walk away rights)

- UFA ages and service stays the same as expired CBA

- seven year maximum contract length

- Front loaded contracts : salary can not drop more then 10% from one year to the next.

-Cap floor will become a %age of cap instead of fixed amount

-Phoenix has been a hot topic apparently - one can only imagine what that is all about

Realignment will eventually be part of the conversation.

Seems like some give on both sides IMO. Let's hope that today goes well. They agree by the end of the week, next week the lawyers draw it all up, NHLPA takes it to the membership for a vote, Bettman/Daly take it to the owners and we have a signed, sealed and delivered CBA by the end of next week.

Then training camp can start on the 19th and 64 game schedule begins November 27th.

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11-06-2012, 07:18 AM
  #498
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Some filtered FYI for a Tuesday morning prior to the two sides meeting face to face:

-NHLPA has asked the NHL to put everything discussed by S Fehr and Daly on paper in a formal proposal so that they may "bring it to the membership". That usually means a vote but I think in this case means discussion.

-Both D. Fehr and Bettman will be in attendance today.

-Both sides agree in the HRR definitions.

-Both sides agree on a 50-50 split and a lot of the discussion on the weekend was how to get there.

-Owners will guarantee all current contracts - out of pocket.

There's agreement on the following, but there is going to be some give and take from both sides depending on who has to give up what to get to 50-50 when they want to.

-They agree on ELC (sorry no details)

- NHL has agreed to salary arbitration (wanted it out in last offer) It's binding arbitration for first 5 years of player's service ( no walk away rights for teams) and then switches to non- binding until player reaches UFA (as in last CBA - teams have walk away rights)

- UFA ages and service stays the same as expired CBA

- seven year maximum contract length

- Front loaded contracts : salary can not drop more then 10% from one year to the next.

-Cap floor will become a %age of cap instead of fixed amount

-Phoenix has been a hot topic apparently - one can only imagine what that is all about

Realignment will eventually be part of the conversation.

Seems like some give on both sides IMO. Let's hope that today goes well. They agree by the end of the week, next week the lawyers draw it all up, NHLPA takes it to the membership for a vote, Bettman/Daly take it to the owners and we have a signed, sealed and delivered CBA by the end of next week.

Then training camp can start on the 19th and 64 game schedule begins November 27th.
Thx Dom,

It appears to me that Daly and S. Fehr should have, from the beginning, been the two guys who were handing things from day one as Bettman and D. Fehr and their nausiating pi***ng contest got them nowhere.

I`m probably way off and simplifying things way more than they are but I`m shaking my head wondering how S. Fehr and Daly sit in a room one day whatever of the lockout and commit to having an honest day/night of communication in attempts to hammer out a deal that is fair to both sides while Fehr`s brother, and Daly`s puppet master couldn`t sit still in a room together for 5 mins??

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11-06-2012, 07:20 AM
  #499
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Thx Dom,

It appears to me that Daly and S. Fehr should have, from the beginning, been the two guys who were handing things from day one as Bettman and D. Fehr and their nausiating pi***ng contest got them nowhere.

I`m probably way off and simplifying things way more than they are but I`m shaking my head wondering how S. Fehr and Daly sit in a room one day whatever of the lockout and commit to having an honest day/night of communication in attempts to hammer out a deal that is fair to both sides while Fehr`s brother, and Daly`s puppet master couldn`t sit still in a room together for 5 mins??
Well to be fair, I believe the NHL lists Daly as chief labor negotiator.

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11-06-2012, 07:22 AM
  #500
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Well to be fair, I believe the NHL lists Daly as chief labor negotiator.
Thx Morris, see, this is why I come here, I don`t know the details like many here do, half the time, I can`t figure out what the heck Daly`s job is

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