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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:16 PM
  #851
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
Me too.. going friday night for draft and dog night. I plan on having entirely too much fun.
actually that sounds high, but about 5 on tickets, then add in gas, food, atleast one trip to Nashville or New York or Toronto or Montreal and thats another 1500 or so.

Where is draft and dog night?

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11-12-2012, 04:26 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by DKH View Post
actually that sounds high, but about 5 on tickets, then add in gas, food, atleast one trip to Nashville or New York or Toronto or Montreal and thats another 1500 or so.

Where is draft and dog night?
Its in providence. For the providence vs monarchs game. I need to catch some hockey. But its $18 bucks for a beer, hot dog, and ticket for the 200 section and $22 for the 100 section. Its usually once a month on selected friday nights.



http://www.providencebruins.com/View...ftDog%20Nights

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11-12-2012, 04:29 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
Its in providence. For the providence vs monarchs game. I need to catch some hockey. But its $18 bucks for a beer, hot dog, and ticket for the 200 section and $22 for the 100 section. Its usually once a month on selected friday nights.



http://www.providencebruins.com/View...ftDog%20Nights
Nice deal. Going to Pub Night at the Thunderbirds this weekend... $20 for good seats + one free draft beer + one free Tbirds hat + a raffle entry for a signed stick.

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11-12-2012, 04:35 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
Its in providence. For the providence vs monarchs game. I need to catch some hockey. But its $18 bucks for a beer, hot dog, and ticket for the 200 section and $22 for the 100 section. Its usually once a month on selected friday nights.



http://www.providencebruins.com/View...ftDog%20Nights
wow good deal- they have Black and Gold downstairs which is Guiness and Harp but they can give Miller Lite (sorry mom) and thats a damn good price

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11-12-2012, 07:44 PM
  #855
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Your two points seem contradictory- "Owners over-pay because they're afraid of being criticized" and "its strictly about making a profit off of an investment"

Also players aren't paid millions because they play a game, they make millions because people will pay billions to watch them play.
Owners pay the going rate, so in that regard it's not technically overpaying when everyone else is being forced to pay it as well. As long as the money is there the owners will be forced to use it because the players will demand it or go elsewhere. Any owner worth his salt would do so in order to keep his club competitive and therefore profitable. Perhaps if all owners got together and collectively said "we aren't going to spend over this much for any player", but I don't think that's realistic. There will always be one or two who spend frivolously because they want to win.

The system is inherently flawed imo. I guess that much should be obvious by the number of lockouts we've seen in the past 20 years. A salary cap was a step in the right direction, and tying the cap to revenues was a great idea at first when revenues were down. Revenues went up and up however, and while that's a good thing in the big scheme of things the fact that the salary cap has gone up and up with them isn't. There are already teams who can't afford to spend to the upper limit and those teams are constantly at a disadvantage because of that. When certain owners can start saying "hey, lets structure this deal like this so this team can't afford to pay it and we can steal their best player", that's not healthy in my opinion and doesn't make for exciting hockey. I like parity, I like a level playing field. In order to have a healthy league I think both are a necessity.

Now sure, it's easy for the players to say "this is an easy solve, the rich teams just need to give away a bunch more of that money they're making to the poor teams" while guys like Shae Weber sign offer sheets paying him 40+ mill in two years (when Forbes ranks the Predators at around 200 mill total value wise) but that doesn't seem much like a solution to me. I doubt the top tier players would be eager to share some of their salary with the guys making league minimum as most people like to keep the money they are making. At some point the bar needs to be set in a place where it's reasonable to expect all 30 NHL teams to be able to bring in enough revenue (without charging ludicrous sums for tickets and concessions and gouging the fans) and it needs to stay there regardless if revenues climb so that they can realistically be able to spend up to the upper limit without losing money and without having the teams that make more money toe the line for them.

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Originally Posted by thegodfather View Post
Kaoz, I don't disagree with you on any of your comments. But at the same time they put their names on those contracts, they should honor them to the fullest.
I could go either way on it honestly. I see where you're coming from and in some cases where the owners tried to get creative with the cap structuring deals in such a way that the cap hits are lower but the player gets paid a heinous amount of money they absolutely should foot the bill, just desserts and all that. In other cases however I understand where some owners are coming from in saying that the salaries as they are are out of control and they really had no choice but to sign their players to it as the market, out of control as it is, dictated it.

End of the day, I'd just like some hockey please, but it'd be nice if we didn't have to suffer through these lockouts every 5 years. I don't care who makes the money so long as the league remains healthy.

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:11 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Where does Bobby Mac say anything about what happened? All he's doing is talking about both sides feelings and his opinion.

Now, you're a smart person and I'm sure you've done your reading:

-NHL proposes their make whole

- It gets out on twitter and players are asking reporters to explain it to them

- then 1 player (of only 5 in the room) leaks the Fehr memo to the media (was it his attempt to publicly display that the make whole wasn't in the memo? - we'll never know unless they figure out who that player was.

- Other players on the NHLPA committee calling out the player that leaked the memo

- Since the proposal was made, players asking questions, the leaked memo, the league questioning whether Fehr is making all the info available - Fehr himself has been talking about that same make whole publicly.

So you've seen the memo, you know then make whole wasn't included in that memo, and the undeniable evidence of Fehr talking about it proves without a shadow of a doubt that the proposal was made - you tell me why it was absent from the memo.

Their excuse is that they tell the players they can call with any questions they have. Sure. Call and ask questions about something that we aren't even aware of.

Your own quote of Bobby Mac begins with "It's fair to say" and goes on to say the NHLPA dismissed the NHL's make whole proposition. Again, the memo tells the players nothing about that.

And the second part?



Opinion on motivation. Not anything to do with fact of the circumstances leading up to it.
Oh SNAP!

Dom,

Great points and I have yet to see anyone debate them. Instead just more of the "Players: Good...Owners: Bad" stuff.

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:50 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Oh SNAP!

Dom,

Great points and I have yet to see anyone debate them. Instead just more of the "Players: Good...Owners: Bad" stuff.
How about this then?

"In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players' share and cap issues, their so-called "make whole", and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their "make whole" idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago. While a step forward, a significant gap remains."

Does that count as "make whole" NOT being included in the memo? It's not a secret what the NHL proposed and why the idea is rejected:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643570

The League proposes to make Players "whole" for the absolute reduction in Players' Share dollars (when compared to 2011/12) that is attributable to the economic terms of the new CBA (the "Share Reduction"). Using an assumed year-over-year growth rate of 5% for League-wide revenues, the new CBA could result in shortfalls from the current level of Players' Share dollars ($1.883 Billion in 2011/12) of up to $149 million in Year 1 and up to $62 million in Year 2, for which Players will be "made whole." (By Year 3 of the new CBA, Players' Share dollars should exceed the current level ($1.883 Billion for 2011/12) and no "make whole" will be required.) Any such "shortfalls" in Years 1 and 2 of the new CBA will be computed as a percentage reduction off of the Player's stated contractual compensation, and will be repaid to the Player as a Deferred Compensation benefit spread over the remaining future years of the Player's SPC (or if he has no remaining years, in the year following the expiration of his SPC). Player reimbursement for the Share Reduction will be accrued and paid for by the League, and will be chargeable against Players' Share amounts in future years as Preliminary Benefits. The objective would be to honor all existing SPCs by restoring their "value" on the basis of the now existing level of Players' Share dollars.

Is there something I'm missing? If so, fair enough. But I'm not sure where the obstruction of information lies.

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Old
11-12-2012, 10:31 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
http://hockeyjournal.com/blog/kirks/index

Always good to read about too...Bruins or otherwise...
I played baseball with Keith Aucoin in Waltham when we were kids. Always admired how hard he worked in the AHL.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:06 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Oh SNAP!

Dom,

Great points and I have yet to see anyone debate them. Instead just more of the "Players: Good...Owners: Bad" stuff.
I'll bite.

Here are a couple notable parts of the memo:

In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players’ share and cap issues, their so-called “make whole”, and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their “make whole” idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago.

snip...

We will review today’s discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update.

The 1st bolded part indicates to me that the players already knew about the "make whole" as had been discussed earlier. This portion tells them that it was formally given - so if players don't know about it they can ask.

The 2nd bolded part tells me this was a memo and that was it. This wasn't a full CBA offer they were giving here. Full details did not need to be given in this memo and just because it wasn't in there doesn't mean the players who wanted to be informed about it had information withheld from them.

Were all 30 (29) owners informed of everything the players offered before being rejected in 10 minutes? I highly doubt it.

But keep vilifying Fehr when the players have overwhelmingly said that he has been a great communicator in keeping them informed.

Just more of the "Players: Bad...Owners: Good" stuff from the pro owner agenda.

Look at the track records of Bettman vs Fehr. Fehr's is far better than Bettman.
Look at why there are owners losing money. It is because of systemic issues and 1 or 2 misplaced franchises - not players share.
Look at who started the work stoppage. Are the players locked out or on strike?
Look at the players offer and how much it gives to the owners. Tell me what concessions the owners are giving. What is the dollar value of that compared to what the players are giving? It is 1 to 2% of what the players are giving up.
The owners are also unwilling to give on the major contracting issues. This has been confirmed by sources that were in the room.

Oh SNAP!

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:30 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
It's infuriating, isn't it??

And those proposals are seen as the PA "not even trying."

Now... I'm not sold that this lockout is 100% owner's fault. And I DO believe that there needs to be changes made to the financial structure of the league AND that player reductions in the share of HRR are a part of that strategy.

But Fehr is getting a GREAT deal of slack right now, which means that there's a huge lot of you who are buying into the NHL's BS propaganda. The confusion over the "Make Whole" provision is just one example of people refusing FACT in favor of whatever garbage makes them feel more.
Yes. People act like the owners are making all the concessions. So many are buying anything that gets leaked for the NHL's side and then dismiss anything from the players side. The facts are in the numbers and Fehr has presented them truthfully. The players are giving up $200M + per year ...and they are the greedy ones?

I still put it 100% on the owners why there is a lockout. No doubt about it. Probably 80% on why it is still going on. Sure they could have negotiated sooner (like that would have made a difference) or could have accepted one of the owners' offers. But why would they? Until the owners make some real concessions and honor most of the current contracts they should not accept a deal.

I feel they do need some systemic changes but it doesn't need to be everything they are asking for; and the money issue should be 50/50 but honor player contracts in full at 57%. Pay back at least the full $592M shortfall over the next 5 years.

Maybe the players should give some "last offer", ultimatums and deadlines like the NHL likes to.

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11-13-2012, 02:45 AM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
I dont see how we as fans should be rooting for the financial well being of the players.

Financially sound owners and franchises are very much more in our best interests, IMO.
I don't see why we should be concerned with billionaire owners being financially sound or that the players have to foolproof their business. That should be on the owners. There are many other ways than to take money from the players.

Only a couple franchises are in trouble that aren't of their own making. Maybe only 1 (Phoenix) and I would argue that is also of their own making and the NHL could have moved them to a profitable city. Phoenix shouldn't even count in the numbers.

The NHL as a whole is financially sound. The players offer would make every team financially sound.

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11-13-2012, 02:47 AM
  #862
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
What is your guess for a start date? I'm confident they have a season but don't know if it will be December 1st or Jan. 1st. I'm leaning towards Dec 1st.

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11-13-2012, 02:57 AM
  #863
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Also, for those angry the NHL locked the players out this time around..

Would you rather the players have gone on strike in April?

Now that is something that would make me give up on the NHL. Luckily the owners stopped that before it happened.
So an NHL lockout is good and player strike is bad? Brilliant. Yeah, luckily the owners locked out the players and we can't watch hockey right now. You should have given up on the NHL when Bettman cancelled a whole season. He is working on #2 now.

I would have rather watched hockey all year so far and see if we got a hypothetical strike later. I bet the owners would have come to an agreement before the playoffs if the players went on strike.

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11-13-2012, 03:01 AM
  #864
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Originally Posted by NYCBruin View Post
Yes fan boys always give the cool players a pass.

Greed. End of story here folks. Don't try to complicate it.
You are right. Owner's greed. End of story.

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11-13-2012, 03:19 AM
  #865
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Agreed. Just tired of the common belief being propagated that it's all on the owners and the players are innocent victims. They league will die as the league is structured. The players are just as guilty and should not be getting half of the revenue when they don't assume any of the league costs. Said it before but it bears repeating. Nobody is innocent in this one.
I get the exact opposite impression on these boards and the league won't die as structured.

I think it is ridiculous that anyone thinks the players should pay for costs or don't deserve half.

Are there a lot of businesses out there were employees are paying for all kinds of expenses?

Are there many businesses where both the employee and the product (which the players are both) don't make up over 50% of the costs.

There are more billionaires in the world than players I want to pay top dollar to watch play hockey. Keep the NHL players with 30 different owners and you will see similar revenue. Replace the players and keep the same owners and see what happens to revenue.

The players deserve what the market will pay and what each team can afford. Right now they are limited in what they can make individually and as a whole. How about we put a limit on what each owner can make? Give any overage to the players.

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11-13-2012, 03:25 AM
  #866
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
The NHL got a 10 year deal partially on the premise that all of its issues would be solved in the upcoming CBA negotiations.

Doesn't matter what anyone of us believe. NBC gives the NHL an ultimatum : Settle by Nov 1st or we cancel the deal ?

Players win by a landslide and it isn't even close. NHL would have to give into every one of the players demands to get the deal done by then. There's no threat to the players to settle in that event.

NBC knew there was a possibility of losing the season. That's why they got the "free" year tagged on at the end in the event the season was lost.

It's also not out of the realm of possibility that the longer this goes, that NBC would be better off with a lost season. Pay $200 million for a 48 game season or $200 million for 0 games with a free 88 games tagged onto the end (accounting for expansion there )
The owners already have the leverage. I think the TV deal gave them an unfair advantage in these negotiations. They are getting paid regardless of a season this year correct? That contract should have just been delayed a year in case of a work stoppage. The owners shouldn't be getting any money this year and then a free year on the end IMO.

I think we would have hockey by now if not for the TV deal.

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11-13-2012, 03:27 AM
  #867
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yes, and I am so embarressed over this I am thinking of driving to Toronto and buying one of the Leafs paper bags to wear in public. As I stated before I have the blueprint up for a penalty box that I will build in my backyard Friday morning and go sit for 2 minutes in shame.

If they get past my date, just forget it- take a year off, a couple, maybe long enough to outlive some owners.

I am kinda liking saving about 10 grand in NHL related money and going to Providence games anyways.

But yes, November 15th is the date the mods shut off my account here and I slink away in shame to the abyss
Don't leave. We will have a season

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11-13-2012, 05:54 AM
  #868
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Don't leave. We will have a season



the excitement is all but gone.

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11-13-2012, 06:37 AM
  #869
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I am somewhat put off by all the side-taking here. some are all for the players and some are all for the owners.....why? Both parties are in the wrong for equal amounts. They are both putting their bottom lines ahead of the people who make their bottom lines possible.
I am disgusted by both sides and it will take a while for me to come back to the NHL.

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11-13-2012, 06:51 AM
  #870
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I am somewhat put off by all the side-taking here.
Amen to that!

Religion and politics have nothing on an HF Boards discussion on the lockout.

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Old
11-13-2012, 06:54 AM
  #871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
What is your guess for a start date? I'm confident they have a season but don't know if it will be December 1st or Jan. 1st. I'm leaning towards Dec 1st.
I got a call at 4 friggin am this morning saying that as of last night they are very close and a deal is coming soon that will allow the season to begin on Dec 1 and that the Winter Classic will be back on again. After doing some searching, found that someone had said "sources" in Chicago had confirmed it with him on twitter.

You and I have been in agreement for quite a while that they are not separated by that much. That said, I'm not so sure Bettman and Fehr were sleeping together last night, let alone share the same Hotel, that they have come even closer to a deal after the Hall of Fame Inductions.

Steve Fehr has said that there are 3 remaining stumbling blocks that need to be dealt with.

My take is that if it were Steve Fehr and Bill Daly running the show, we would never have come this far. They made huge steps last weekend only to have it all picked apart in the larger groups. Bettman and Don Fehr can both go take a hike as far as i'm concerned.

As for the 4 am phone call, it was from a fan (really have to stop giving my phone number out) asking if there was any truth to it. Of course I'll find out what I can this morning, but I highly doubt its true.

But I do believe they can start the week of Nov 27 - Dec 2

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11-13-2012, 07:04 AM
  #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
I got a call at 4 friggin am this morning saying that as of last night they are very close and a deal is coming soon that will allow the season to begin on Dec 1 and that the Winter Classic will be back on again. After doing some searching, found that someone had said "sources" in Chicago had confirmed it with him on twitter.

You and I have been in agreement for quite a while that they are not separated by that much. That said, I'm not so sure Bettman and Fehr were sleeping together last night, let alone share the same Hotel, that they have come even closer to a deal after the Hall of Fame Inductions.

Steve Fehr has said that there are 3 remaining stumbling blocks that need to be dealt with.

My take is that if it were Steve Fehr and Bill Daly running the show, we would never have come this far. They made huge steps last weekend only to have it all picked apart in the larger groups. Bettman and Don Fehr can both go take a hike as far as i'm concerned.

As for the 4 am phone call, it was from a fan (really have to stop giving my phone number out) asking if there was any truth to it. Of course I'll find out what I can this morning, but I highly doubt its true.

But I do believe they can start the week of Nov 27 - Dec 2
That seems to my thoughts as well. This thing was stalled for what.. 2 weeks no one spoke to each other. Then steve fehr and daly get together and **** started moving to the right side of the tracks. I believe Morris Wanchuk had it right.. the 2's would get this done or at least be the big reason why it gets done.

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11-13-2012, 07:08 AM
  #873
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Originally Posted by Dogberry View Post
Nice deal. Going to Pub Night at the Thunderbirds this weekend... $20 for good seats + one free draft beer + one free Tbirds hat + a raffle entry for a signed stick.
Gotta love the minor leagues. I think they're giving out shirts to the first 2k people friday night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH View Post
wow good deal- they have Black and Gold downstairs which is Guiness and Harp but they can give Miller Lite (sorry mom) and thats a damn good price
Ya i'm gonna find the most expensive beer that i can get for free.. black and tan for free will make me happy for sure.

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11-13-2012, 07:08 AM
  #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
I'll bite.

Here are a couple notable parts of the memo:

In addition, we received a revamped proposal covering players’ share and cap issues, their so-called “make whole”, and player contracting issues. The owners finally did formally give us their “make whole” idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago.

snip...

We will review today’s discussions over night and tomorrow morning before meeting again with the owners. Following our meeting tomorrow with the league, we will be able to provide a broader update.

Oh SNAP!
The left out part

Quote:
The owners finally did formally give us their "make whole" idea, which in dollar terms is similar to the discussions Bill Daly had with Steve Fehr a few days ago.
Similar, not the same

As for the last part...AFTER the meetings the next day they would provide further details....yes, after we reject it we'll tell you about it.

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Old
11-13-2012, 07:27 AM
  #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
The left out part



Similar, not the same

As for the last part...AFTER the meetings the next day they would provide further details....yes, after we reject it we'll tell you about it.
I'm confused. Unless I'm misreading it, the sentence you provided reads word for word the same as the sentence you quoted, yet you say they're similar, not the same.

Am I missing something?

Edit: Sorry. Niether sentence showed up in my post...not too good at this multi-quote stuff!

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