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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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Old
11-13-2012, 05:22 PM
  #901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Top 10 player salaries the year before the last CBA and the top 10 Salaries this year.

2004
$11,000,000.00Forsberg, Peter
$11,000,000.00Jagr, Jaromir
$11,000,000.00Fedorov, Sergei
$11,000,000.00Bure, Pavel
$10,000,000.00Lidstrom, Nicklas
$10,000,000.00 Tkachuk, Keith
$9,880,939.00 Sakic, Joe
$9,500,000.00 Pronger, Chris
$9,326,519.00Blake, Robert
$9,000,000.00LeClair, John


2012
$14,000,000 Weber, Shea
$12,000,000Richards, Brad
$12,000,000Myers, Tyler
$12,000,000Parise, Zach
$12,000,000Suter, Ryan
$11,000,000 Kovalchuk, Ilya
$10,000,000 Lecavalier, Vincent
$9,000,000 Malkin, Evgeni
$9,000,000 Ovechkin, Alex
$8,500,000 Staal, Eric

During the years in between league revenue grew by about 50% (from 2.1 to 3.3 billion) and Bettman's salary grew from 3.7 mil to 8.
Boy, doesn't this make it seem like outlawing cap-circumventing contracts would go a long way in fixing some of this?

Also, those numbers are crazy. And pretty much explain why I suppored the owners for the most part last time and the players for the most part this time.

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11-13-2012, 05:25 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by nifty988 View Post
Tyler Myers makes 12 mil??

10 mil signing bonus and 2 mil salary!

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11-13-2012, 05:40 PM
  #903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Top 10 player salaries the year before the last CBA and the top 10 Salaries this year.

2004
$11,000,000.00Forsberg, Peter
$11,000,000.00Jagr, Jaromir
$11,000,000.00Fedorov, Sergei
$11,000,000.00Bure, Pavel
$10,000,000.00Lidstrom, Nicklas
$10,000,000.00 Tkachuk, Keith
$9,880,939.00 Sakic, Joe
$9,500,000.00 Pronger, Chris
$9,326,519.00Blake, Robert
$9,000,000.00LeClair, John


2012
$14,000,000 Weber, Shea
$12,000,000Richards, Brad
$12,000,000Myers, Tyler
$12,000,000Parise, Zach
$12,000,000Suter, Ryan
$11,000,000 Kovalchuk, Ilya
$10,000,000 Lecavalier, Vincent
$9,000,000 Malkin, Evgeni
$9,000,000 Ovechkin, Alex
$8,500,000 Staal, Eric

During the years in between league revenue grew by about 50% (from 2.1 to 3.3 billion) and Bettman's salary grew from 3.7 mil to 8.
Bettman's salary is beyond ridiculous.

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11-13-2012, 08:33 PM
  #904
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“We’re done making proposals,” Daly said. “We’ll see what they want to do.”
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...medium=twitter

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11-13-2012, 11:11 PM
  #905
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Crosby was quoted as saying "I think there's a deal to be made"

And "I think in the end both sides lose"

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11-13-2012, 11:18 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by KnightofBoston View Post
Crosby was quoted as saying "I think there's a deal to be made"

And "I think in the end both sides lose"
I love that 1st quote!

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11-14-2012, 02:33 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
1. Owners set the going rate, and they say the money isn't there. IMO that's a management mistake that players shouldn't have to pay for.

2. Top teir players did agree to share some of their salary when the salary cap was imposed and they took a roll back in salaries. Hell, 10 years ago Holik signed a deal that averaged out to be more per year than any current player other than Ovechkin!
theres some logic problems in these statements. first as far as the owners handing out 'individual' contracts and then being blamed for 'overspending.' Remember that owners are obligated under the old cba to give the union members 57% of hrr. Not one penny more... not one penny less. Owners cant screw themselves up by issuing individual contracts since the money is already gone.

Now remember that owners have to compete... keep fans happy... winning teams sell more tickets... as do teams with attractive gate attractions. So once an owner knows he is on the hook to contibute his share to the 57% then it really doesnt matter if he spends a buck to try to make a buck. OF COURSE what the owners are saying now is that 57% is way too much money and forces them to lose more money then they would otherwise agree to.

Remember... these are billionare owners so if they WANT to lose SOME money they are able to do it {and often do} But they are just asking now not to be FORCED to lose TOO MUCH money.

Ultimately its the fans that force the owners to spend to the cap and over their budget anyhow. If our owner doesnt spend spend spend then we revolt. So the owners are really just asking for protection against us and our demands anyhow.

Moving on to point number 2. When an individual player leverages a payout to himself, he is taking money from the collective. The collective is entitled to 57% of the hrr under the old cba. The collective gets this money whether crosby or ovechkin get their 7-9 mill or not. If the individual contracts dont add up to 57%, then the collective still gets the money as the owners MUST give the collective 57%

so when an individual player gets an extra million here or there from some owner... its not really the owner paying him. Its really the collective. That money otherwise would have went to the collective. Every player is taking money that is otherwise owed to the collective. So all players take from each other.

Now as for the rollbacks last time around... this money didnt go to help the collective. The wealthy players didnt give to help the poor. This money went to the owners and was used to protect everyones jobs. The rich players didnt give any bigger % then the poor players did.

The players DO NOT revenue share with each other. They resist improving pensions for retired players. They maximize their individual earning powers. They sacrafice entry level players that cant defend themselves yet. They dont fight for the righs of juniors or minor leagers.

The players point the finger at the Maple Leafs and Rangers and say that maybe these 2 teams can bail out the 10 big money losers but Maple Leafs and Rangers are owned by corporations with share holders. It is a bunch of people living hand to mouth that own these teams. Taking away their profits is hurting moms and pops. The players could also easily help the 10 biggest money losing teams by accepting a rollback in their share of hrr from 57 to 50%. This rollback would repersent around a loss of 100k or so on a million dollar salary this year... and less loss in the future.

The players are not willing to survive on 900k compensation this year instead of 1 million but are willing to tell the shareholders of the rangers and leafs that instead of a meager dividend on their investment, they should be happy with nothing

dont get me wrong... i think players do deserve a very good living, but lets call it as it is. The owners have been operating under a very crappy system that has seen players salaries skyrocket way beyond reason. The only way the owners even struggle to survive is by taking taxpayer handouts. Without the 10s and 10s of millions of dollars taxpayers give the owners every year, theres at least 10 markets that wouldnt be able to still be supporting hockey at all.

at the end of the day... the union needs these teams to exist or they are going to lose 33% of their cozy jobs... and thats going to be a hell of a lot more difficult for them then any possible cutback on salaries from an average of over 2.5 mill per player down to maybe around an average of 2 mill instead for the next year or two until growth in revenues has it right back to 2.5 mill anyhow

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11-14-2012, 07:25 AM
  #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Top 10 player salaries the year before the last CBA and the top 10 Salaries this year.

2004
$11,000,000.00Forsberg, Peter
$11,000,000.00Jagr, Jaromir
$11,000,000.00Fedorov, Sergei
$11,000,000.00Bure, Pavel
$10,000,000.00Lidstrom, Nicklas
$10,000,000.00 Tkachuk, Keith
$9,880,939.00 Sakic, Joe
$9,500,000.00 Pronger, Chris
$9,326,519.00Blake, Robert
$9,000,000.00LeClair, John


2012
$14,000,000 Weber, Shea
$12,000,000Richards, Brad
$12,000,000Myers, Tyler
$12,000,000Parise, Zach
$12,000,000Suter, Ryan
$11,000,000 Kovalchuk, Ilya
$10,000,000 Lecavalier, Vincent
$9,000,000 Malkin, Evgeni
$9,000,000 Ovechkin, Alex
$8,500,000 Staal, Eric

During the years in between league revenue grew by about 50% (from 2.1 to 3.3 billion) and Bettman's salary grew from 3.7 mil to 8.
So you're showing that the past CBA, and more specifically the salary cap that was implemented didn't do at all what it was intended to do? I agree completely, which is why we're again going through CBA negotiations well into what should be an NHL season.

In a world with no cap structure (your 2004 example) players salaries will continuously inflate. That was the problem then. The reason they inflate? Simple really, the best players make the most money, and as their contracts end or other players prove to be better, they will get more money. So on and so on. If you took the top salaries from the year 2000 they are significantly lower:

PLAYER TEAM POS. SALARY
Jagr, Jaromir PIT RW $10,359,852.00 US
Kariya, Paul ANA LW $10,000,000.00 US
Forsberg, Peter COL C $9,000,000.00 US
Fleury, Theoren NYR RW $8,500,000.00 US
Lindros, Eric PHI C $8,500,000.00 US
Bure, Pavel FLA RW $8,000,000.00 US
Roy, Patrick COL G $7,500,000.00 US
Hasek, Dominik BUF G $7,000,000.00 US
Sundin, Mats TOR C $7,000,000.00 US
Leetch, Brian NYR D $6,680,000.00 US

Proving what? Salary inflation in a non cap NHL. Go back another 5 years and the change is ridiculous. This is one of the main reasons there was a lockout in the first place.

But then, look at salaries the year after the lockout:
1 Jagr Jaromir RW New York Rangers $8,360,000.00
2 Yashin Alexei C New York Islanders $7,600,000.00
3 Lidstrom Nicklas D Detroit Red Wings $7,600,000.00
4 Tkachuk Keith LW St. Louis Blues $7,600,000.00
5 Iginla Jarome RW Calgary Flames $7,000,000.00
6 Sundin Mats C Toronto Maple Leafs $6,840,000.00
7 Khabibulin Nikolai G Chicago Blackhawks $6,750,000.00
8 Niedermayer Scott D Anaheim Mighty Ducks $6,750,000.00
9 Guerin Bill RW Dallas Stars $6,738,498.00
10 Sakic Joe C Colorado Avalanche $6,664,797.00

Significantly lower, much more reasonable. All teams could afford their payroll. There was parity, and a level playing field for all. Proving what? At first, when revenues were down the lockout and cap accomplished what the owners wanted.

Again, where current player salaries have gone since the institution of the cap IS the problem. Many teams can no longer afford to pay their players. That's an issue, unless you aren't concerned about league health. At first tying the salary cap to revenues made sense because revenues were down. They've steadily increased to the point where there is literally no difference (as you've shown) to what was being spent pre 2004 lockout. And it continues to get worse. That's not a healthy market most teams can survive in.

Now that doesn't make a lick of difference to the big market teams who are pulling in the coin. It does however make a difference to the smaller market teams who aren't.

So whats the answer? A hard, reasonable cap imo. Problem is, it will never be agreed upon by the PA because the players feel entitled to make more money as the NHL (as a whole) makes more money even though that makes it impossible for smaller market teams, and areas where they're trying to grow the sport to thrive. Personally, I think the best players making 10mill per year is more then fair to the players regardless of the revenue the NHL is bringing in. Hell, I think making 7 million a year is a fantastic yearly salary. The fact that the PA is arguing otherwise is in my opinion, absolutely ludicrous. I don't care if NHL owners get richer, or if Gary Bettman draws a salary 2/3rds of what the best NHL players get. I have a hard time thinking that being a 22 year old defenseman for the Buffalo Sabres is a harder job, and therefore worth more in salary then it is to run the entire league. Bettman needs a better agent.


Last edited by Kaoz: 11-14-2012 at 07:30 AM.
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11-14-2012, 07:31 AM
  #909
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http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...121119633/1002

good article from buffalo on the main issues.

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11-14-2012, 07:44 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
So you're showing that the past CBA, and more specifically the salary cap that was implemented didn't do at all what it was intended to do? I agree completely, which is why we're again going through CBA negotiations well into what should be an NHL season.

In a world with no cap structure (your 2004 example) players salaries will continuously inflate. That was the problem then. The reason they inflate? Simple really, the best players make the most money, and as their contracts end or other players prove to be better, they will get more money. So on and so on. If you took the top salaries from the year 2000 they are significantly lower:

PLAYER TEAM POS. SALARY
Jagr, Jaromir PIT RW $10,359,852.00 US
Kariya, Paul ANA LW $10,000,000.00 US
Forsberg, Peter COL C $9,000,000.00 US
Fleury, Theoren NYR RW $8,500,000.00 US
Lindros, Eric PHI C $8,500,000.00 US
Bure, Pavel FLA RW $8,000,000.00 US
Roy, Patrick COL G $7,500,000.00 US
Hasek, Dominik BUF G $7,000,000.00 US
Sundin, Mats TOR C $7,000,000.00 US
Leetch, Brian NYR D $6,680,000.00 US

Proving what? Salary inflation in a non cap NHL. Go back another 5 years and the change is ridiculous. This is one of the main reasons there was a lockout in the first place.

But then, look at salaries the year after the lockout:
1 Jagr Jaromir RW New York Rangers $8,360,000.00
2 Yashin Alexei C New York Islanders $7,600,000.00
3 Lidstrom Nicklas D Detroit Red Wings $7,600,000.00
4 Tkachuk Keith LW St. Louis Blues $7,600,000.00
5 Iginla Jarome RW Calgary Flames $7,000,000.00
6 Sundin Mats C Toronto Maple Leafs $6,840,000.00
7 Khabibulin Nikolai G Chicago Blackhawks $6,750,000.00
8 Niedermayer Scott D Anaheim Mighty Ducks $6,750,000.00
9 Guerin Bill RW Dallas Stars $6,738,498.00
10 Sakic Joe C Colorado Avalanche $6,664,797.00

Significantly lower, much more reasonable. All teams could afford their payroll. There was parity, and a level playing field for all. Proving what? At first, when revenues were down the lockout and cap accomplished what the owners wanted.

Again, where current player salaries have gone since the institution of the cap IS the problem. Many teams can no longer afford to pay their players. That's an issue, unless you aren't concerned about league health. At first tying the salary cap to revenues made sense because revenues were down. They've steadily increased to the point where there is literally no difference (as you've shown) to what was being spent pre 2004 lockout. And it continues to get worse. That's not a healthy market most teams can survive in.

Now that doesn't make a lick of difference to the big market teams who are pulling in the coin. It does however make a difference to the smaller market teams who aren't.

So whats the answer? A hard, reasonable cap imo. Problem is, it will never be agreed upon by the PA because the players feel entitled to make more money as the NHL (as a whole) makes more money even though that makes it impossible for smaller market teams, and areas where they're trying to grow the sport to thrive. Personally, I think the best players making 10mill per year is more then fair to the players regardless of the revenue the NHL is bringing in. Hell, I think making 7 million a year is a fantastic yearly salary. The fact that the PA is arguing otherwise is in my opinion, absolutely ludicrous. I don't care if NHL owners get richer, or if Gary Bettman draws a salary 2/3rds of what the best NHL players get. I have a hard time thinking that being a 22 year old defenseman for the Buffalo Sabres is a harder job, and therefore worth more in salary then it is to run the entire league. Bettman needs a better agent.
What your definition of a harder job? i think getting hit in every imagineable way, playing 82 games a year, and getting your body in prime shape is a pretty difficult job. Bettman looking out for the interests of the owners, speaking pubicly when issuing the stanley cup or at the draft, and not attending that many games sounds like a sweet job. Especially making 8 million a year. So a 22 year old defensemen making 12 million to play one of the most phyiscal sports out there is ridiculous, but a man sitting in an office, and to not get in the way of the owners making 8 million isn't?

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11-14-2012, 07:54 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
What your definition of a harder job? i think getting hit in every imagineable way, playing 82 games a year, and getting your body in prime shape is a pretty difficult job. Bettman looking out for the interests of the owners, speaking pubicly when issuing the stanley cup or at the draft, and not attending that many games sounds like a sweet job. Especially making 8 million a year. So a 22 year old defensemen making 12 million to play one of the most phyiscal sports out there is ridiculous, but a man sitting in an office, and to not get in the way of the owners making 8 million isn't?
Yes, I think being the commissioner of the NHL would be far harder then being a 22 year old 2nd pairing defenseman in Buffalo, and think the former should be compensated more then latter. At the very least, I think it's silly to balk at the money the former makes when the later makes that plus 50% more.

Also, I think you have an overly simplistic view of what Bettman actually does and is responsible for. It's no doubt a tad more difficult then you make it seem.

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11-14-2012, 07:58 AM
  #912
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Yes, I think being the commissioner of the NHL would be far harder then being a 22 year old 2nd pairing defenseman in Buffalo, and think the former should be compensated more then latter. At the very least, I think it's silly to balk at the money the former makes when the later makes that plus 50% more.

Also, I think you have an overly simplistic view of what Bettman actually does and is responsible for. It's no doubt a tad more difficult then you make it seem.
Surely can`t be more difficult than the multi-tasking I`m forced to do in order to be considered a professional waiter??

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11-14-2012, 08:00 AM
  #913
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Yes, I think being the commissioner of the NHL would be far harder then being a 22 year old 2nd pairing defenseman in Buffalo, and think the former should be compensated more then latter. At the very least, I think it's silly to balk at the money the former makes when the later makes that plus 50% more.

Also, I think you have an overly simplistic view of what Bettman actually does and is responsible for. It's no doubt a tad more difficult then you make it seem.
I think your being completely simplistic in your view on what a player has to sacrifice to be at the top level. Gary Bettman has a hard job yes. But he doesn't risk physical injuries to do it. The reason why he makes 8 million dollars a year is because the people of buffalo pay millions of dollars to see that young man play a good physical brand of hockey. They don't pay to see the owners and bettman could millions. Also bettmans job has been pointed out is to meet with donald fehr (another man that makes entirely too much money if you ask me as well). He represents the owners.. how is that a hard job. The owners know what they want he is their mouthpiece of sorts. You're acting like the man is stuck in a lab all day and is doing quantum physics.

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11-14-2012, 08:00 AM
  #914
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Surely can`t be more difficult than the multi-tasking I`m forced to do in order to be considered a professional waiter??
An NHL commissioner gets better perks

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11-14-2012, 08:06 AM
  #915
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An NHL commissioner gets better perks
I get 50% discounts on food, solid for a starving student

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11-14-2012, 08:12 AM
  #916
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I think your being completely simplistic in your view on what a player has to sacrifice to be at the top level. Gary Bettman has a hard job yes. But he doesn't risk physical injuries to do it. The reason why he makes 8 million dollars a year is because the people of buffalo pay millions of dollars to see that young man play a good physical brand of hockey. They don't pay to see the owners and bettman could millions. Also bettmans job has been pointed out is to meet with donald fehr (another man that makes entirely too much money if you ask me as well). He represents the owners.. how is that a hard job. The owners know what they want he is their mouthpiece of sorts. You're acting like the man is stuck in a lab all day and is doing quantum physics.
I know people who work out and get into top physical condition as a hobby, because it makes them feel better, and because it's healthy. That's not much of a sacrifice, that's something we should all strive for. Now as for what a player sacrifices to get to the level they're at, I think I know just as well as you and most others do here being a guy who's played and followed hockey all his life.

I envy the commitment, skill, and drive NHL players show. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the fact that they are away from their families constantly, and that they risk personal injury on a daily basis. Just like I appreciate electricians do that exact same thing, truck drivers, doctors, etc etc etc... I also think being able to make more money in one year then most people will see in their entire lives could be considered fair compensation.

End of the day, I want the league to thrive and I want each team to be able to make bank. I don't care if Shae Weber has to make 10 million per year instead of 14 million per year to make that happen. When these kids were growing up and decided to commit to the sport the best players were making less then 4 mill per year.

Ps. Just a quick search for Bettmans job responsibilities returns this:
Yea, he does and is responsible for pretty much all of it. One key difference though that's interesting, Bettman doesn't do his job well he gets less money. Myers sucks out for a season in front of those gracious Buffalo fans you speak of he still gets his money.


Last edited by Kaoz: 11-14-2012 at 08:19 AM.
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11-14-2012, 08:33 AM
  #917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
I know people who work out and get into top physical condition as a hobby, because it makes them feel better, and because it's healthy. That's not much of a sacrifice, that's something we should all strive for. Now as for what a player sacrifices to get to the level they're at, I think I know just as well as you and most others do here being a guy who's played and followed hockey all his life.

I envy the commitment, skill, and drive NHL players show. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the fact that they are away from their families constantly, and that they risk personal injury on a daily basis. Just like I appreciate electricians do that exact same thing, truck drivers, doctors, etc etc etc... I also think being able to make more money in one year then most people will see in their entire lives could be considered fair compensation.

End of the day, I want the league to thrive and I want each team to be able to make bank. I don't care if Shae Weber has to make 10 million per year instead of 14 million per year to make that happen. When these kids were growing up and decided to commit to the sport the best players were making less then 4 mill per year.

Ps. Just a quick search for Bettmans job responsibilities returns this:


Yea, he does and is responsible for pretty much all of it. One key difference though that's interesting, Bettman doesn't do his job well he gets less money. Myers sucks out for a season in front of those gracious Buffalo fans you speak of he still gets his money.
You outlined what he does, thats great. Its all talk, you ever heard/read some peoples jobs. How about front desk clerk?.. everyones always using big speech to explain their jobs. I'm not saying bettmans job isn't important but i doubt hes wringing hands each and every day worried about every little thing in the league (when of course the season is being played). I think he's a management shill, otherwise with 2 lockouts and a shortened season in 95 he'd be fired by now. He's made a good amount of owners plenty of money. I know only 12 teams made money last year, but they made enough to leave this guy in his office. I think the "pressure" of his job is pretty overrated. As long as he helps out jj and the other owners he'll always have a seat at the table.

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11-14-2012, 08:36 AM
  #918
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One really sucky fact in all of this is that no matter what agreement they come to, or when, I can't afford a ticket to go see them live...at all.

There've been months where my cable bill gets payed late, but I pay it as soon as I can cuz I love to watch hockey on TV.

Heck, there's someone on here who said they've put buying a furnace for her house on hold so she could pay for her season tickets.

That reminds me...I need to order heating oil.

And I care about these d***cknozzles trying to figure out how to divvy up 3.3 billion per year?!!

Oh, wait, it's not that much, cuz they missed games this year.

Why do I care? cuz I love to watch hockey.

I wasn't mad about this before, but I'm mad now.

*End of rant*

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11-14-2012, 09:30 AM
  #919
SpokedLightning
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Originally Posted by Roll 4 Lines View Post
One really sucky fact in all of this is that no matter what agreement they come to, or when, I can't afford a ticket to go see them live...at all.

There've been months where my cable bill gets payed late, but I pay it as soon as I can cuz I love to watch hockey on TV.

Heck, there's someone on here who said they've put buying a furnace for her house on hold so she could pay for her season tickets.

That reminds me...I need to order heating oil.

And I care about these d***cknozzles trying to figure out how to divvy up 3.3 billion per year?!!

Oh, wait, it's not that much, cuz they missed games this year.

Why do I care? cuz I love to watch hockey.

I wasn't mad about this before, but I'm mad now.

*End of rant*
I feel your pain. Thats what disgusts me most about this whole situation. I would normally be pro player but with all the stupid woe is me tweets they have been posting I'm going to have a hard time rooting for these guys when they "eventually" start playing again.


Last edited by SpokedLightning: 11-14-2012 at 11:32 AM.
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11-14-2012, 09:31 AM
  #920
Kaoz
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
You outlined what he does, thats great. Its all talk, you ever heard/read some peoples jobs. How about front desk clerk?.. everyones always using big speech to explain their jobs. I'm not saying bettmans job isn't important but i doubt hes wringing hands each and every day worried about every little thing in the league (when of course the season is being played). I think he's a management shill, otherwise with 2 lockouts and a shortened season in 95 he'd be fired by now. He's made a good amount of owners plenty of money. I know only 12 teams made money last year, but they made enough to leave this guy in his office. I think the "pressure" of his job is pretty overrated. As long as he helps out jj and the other owners he'll always have a seat at the table.
You're all over the place here, sorry, it's hard to follow. He's made the owners money, but you acknowledge less then half of those owners made money last year? You think his job description is all talk and bluster, and that being responsible for the league on a whole is really no biggie? Unless you think someone else is responsible and he's just the face of the league (couldn't they have picked a face that doesn't look like Despereuax)?

I'll say this. The league will immediately survive without Gary Bettman. Another commissioner would be hired, life would go on. But the league will also survive without a Sid Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, Evgeni Malkin, Tyler Myers, Shae Weber, etc etc etc... New players will come in and take their place and life will go on. The only things the league can't survive without are owners and fans. It needs both. Viable owners aren't exactly lining up at the door anymore. If they aren't going to make money they aren't going to buy, that's just common sense. Every team needs to make money for this thing to work and it can't happen with players salaries where they are right now and where they're headed regardless of how many hours Tyler Myers spends in the gym.

The owners aren't locking the players out because they only care about money. The owners are the only ones losing money at this point. They've locked out the players because too many teams are losing money, because too many can't afford payroll demands from their players already and because the players want to make even more money then they currently are.

Sorry, I know there is this whole line of thought out there that players sacrifice so much that they deserve, or should be entitled to the money the league earns. If that's true then why aren't soldiers fighting for their country entitled to an equal portion of the countries GNP? They sacrifice a hell of a lot more. That whole argument kinda falls on deaf ears here, people sacrifice for their work, that's just how it goes.


Last edited by Kaoz: 11-14-2012 at 09:39 AM.
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11-14-2012, 10:48 AM
  #921
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Surely can`t be more difficult than the multi-tasking I`m forced to do in order to be considered a professional waiter??
Well...Maybe a tad more difficult. ..but we like you better than him

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11-14-2012, 11:02 AM
  #922
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
theres some logic problems in these statements. first as far as the owners handing out 'individual' contracts and then being blamed for 'overspending.' Remember that owners are obligated under the old cba to give the union members 57% of hrr. Not one penny more... not one penny less. Owners cant screw themselves up by issuing individual contracts since the money is already gone.

Now remember that owners have to compete... keep fans happy... winning teams sell more tickets... as do teams with attractive gate attractions. So once an owner knows he is on the hook to contibute his share to the 57% then it really doesnt matter if he spends a buck to try to make a buck. OF COURSE what the owners are saying now is that 57% is way too much money and forces them to lose more money then they would otherwise agree to.

Remember... these are billionare owners so if they WANT to lose SOME money they are able to do it {and often do} But they are just asking now not to be FORCED to lose TOO MUCH money.

Ultimately its the fans that force the owners to spend to the cap and over their budget anyhow. If our owner doesnt spend spend spend then we revolt. So the owners are really just asking for protection against us and our demands anyhow.

Moving on to point number 2. When an individual player leverages a payout to himself, he is taking money from the collective. The collective is entitled to 57% of the hrr under the old cba. The collective gets this money whether crosby or ovechkin get their 7-9 mill or not. If the individual contracts dont add up to 57%, then the collective still gets the money as the owners MUST give the collective 57%

so when an individual player gets an extra million here or there from some owner... its not really the owner paying him. Its really the collective. That money otherwise would have went to the collective. Every player is taking money that is otherwise owed to the collective. So all players take from each other.

Now as for the rollbacks last time around... this money didnt go to help the collective. The wealthy players didnt give to help the poor. This money went to the owners and was used to protect everyones jobs. The rich players didnt give any bigger % then the poor players did.

The players DO NOT revenue share with each other. They resist improving pensions for retired players. They maximize their individual earning powers. They sacrafice entry level players that cant defend themselves yet. They dont fight for the righs of juniors or minor leagers.

The players point the finger at the Maple Leafs and Rangers and say that maybe these 2 teams can bail out the 10 big money losers but Maple Leafs and Rangers are owned by corporations with share holders. It is a bunch of people living hand to mouth that own these teams. Taking away their profits is hurting moms and pops. The players could also easily help the 10 biggest money losing teams by accepting a rollback in their share of hrr from 57 to 50%. This rollback would repersent around a loss of 100k or so on a million dollar salary this year... and less loss in the future.

The players are not willing to survive on 900k compensation this year instead of 1 million but are willing to tell the shareholders of the rangers and leafs that instead of a meager dividend on their investment, they should be happy with nothing

dont get me wrong... i think players do deserve a very good living, but lets call it as it is. The owners have been operating under a very crappy system that has seen players salaries skyrocket way beyond reason. The only way the owners even struggle to survive is by taking taxpayer handouts. Without the 10s and 10s of millions of dollars taxpayers give the owners every year, theres at least 10 markets that wouldnt be able to still be supporting hockey at all.

at the end of the day... the union needs these teams to exist or they are going to lose 33% of their cozy jobs... and thats going to be a hell of a lot more difficult for them then any possible cutback on salaries from an average of over 2.5 mill per player down to maybe around an average of 2 mill instead for the next year or two until growth in revenues has it right back to 2.5 mill anyhow
1. The first point was in response to the idea that an individual could always go somewhere else to get the money he demands if a team refuses to pay him. The problem is that the "somewhere else" is always another team. Players only get paid when owners decide to pay them.

2. When the NHLPA agreed to a salary cap and a max contract tied to the cap number (20%), they agreed to profit sharing among players. Why not place the same profit sharing equation on owners? As it is, three teams individually take home more than 20% of league profits- the Leafs take home 2/3 of all league profit alone! If 20% is a good cap number for players, why not 20% for owners and the health of the league?

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11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
  #923
Fire Julien
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marc savard ‏@MSavvy91

Crosby's comments on the lockout I couldn't agree more..I'm starting to think its the NHL's mandate to not have a season.. #nhlpastaystrong

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11-14-2012, 11:32 AM
  #924
RussellmaniaKW
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what does "NHL pasta y strong" mean?

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11-14-2012, 11:45 AM
  #925
SpokedLightning
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
what does "NHL pasta y strong" mean?
Kiss The Ring...er Caballo could tell you but then he would have to kill you.

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