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The All Purpose Luongo Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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Old
10-25-2012, 01:45 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Behind closed doors is speculative, his quotes are not. He exudes class. When he could have pulled a Heatley and be subsequently vilified by VAN fans/media, he instead shows how smart/conscientious he is. He's all about the team.


You think he's going to pull a 180 and start taking on a Heatley persona?
But you KNOW Luongo pulling a Heatley is impossible because Roberto has no track record of such behavior. Heck, Panthers fans still debate to this day who's at fault in his departure. Most put Lupien and Keenan squarely ahead of Luongo on the blame totem polem. In fact, Luongo was both blindsided and saddened by the trade.

And you also KNOW that Luongo is as PC as they come. He's the funny guy, sooner to make his teammates laugh than to alienate them. Every single thing he's said to this point has been predictable, so much so that there's no need to even take them into account.

Don't act like the absence of Roberto "pulling a 180 and starting to take on a Heatley persona" means something.

The most "controversial" thing to come out of his mouth is reporting that he and Gillis agreed that it was time for him to move on, which was anything but earth-shattering seeing Vigneault turn to Schneider to save the Canucks in their final three playoff games.

But if you want to keep bringing up these innocuous quotes to reaffirm your belief that Luongo will wholeheartedly accept a platoon/backup role with Vancouver until Gillis brings a trade proposal his way that he will undoubtedly accept, regardless of the destination, then you go right ahead.


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10-25-2012, 01:55 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
$5.33M/year long-term isn't an albatross for a top 5 goalie.
It is for a mid-30s goaltender who has shown that he cannot hold the number one position in the playoffs.

A lot of question marks surround Roberto at the moment and that will be reflected in his value. Based on previous trades and what Brian Burke has told those around him, any trade involving the Leafs and Roberto will be with minimal value going the other way. If Mike Gillis isn't satisfied with that, then he could look for another sucker to take that contract on with the soon-to-be lower cap ceiling.

I could see something being worked out around Carter Ashton and a third or fourth round pick once Gillis realizes he's in a ****** bargaining position.

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10-25-2012, 02:01 PM
  #428
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I could see something being worked out around Carter Ashton and a third or fourth round pick once Gillis realizes he's in a ****** bargaining position.
Or maybe the Leafs new GM will see the value in Luongo when Burke is fired before Christmas.

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10-25-2012, 02:02 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
2nd or Ashton.

Bozak + 2nd or Ashton + cap space for Luongo + albatross contract.

Won't be much more than that.
You're forgetting the new CBA will likely make us keep the albatross part of the contract. You'd just be getting the good cap hit part.

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10-25-2012, 02:03 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
It is for a mid-30s goaltender who has shown that he cannot hold the number one position in the playoffs.

A lot of question marks surround Roberto at the moment and that will be reflected in his value. Based on previous trades and what Brian Burke has told those around him, any trade involving the Leafs and Roberto will be with minimal value going the other way. If Mike Gillis isn't satisfied with that, then he could look for another sucker to take that contract on with the soon-to-be lower cap ceiling.

I could see something being worked out around Carter Ashton and a third or fourth round pick once Gillis realizes he's in a ****** bargaining position.
I'm sure you can.
I'm expecting a reasonable deal to be worked out as soon as the ink dries on a CBA deal. Vancouver would prefer to move Luongo before the season starts and there is no way that Burke will go another season with the goaltending that was amongst the worst in the league. With both sides in a fairly even bargaining position we should see a deal shortly after a new CBA, IMO.

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10-25-2012, 02:17 PM
  #431
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There is a contingent of Canuck fans that will insist on the 1st or Gardiner or both. While some will be happy with that package. It all comes down to how much quality, and not quantity, some fans prefer.
While there's a contingent of Leaf fans that will insist on a lower package altogether (cap dumps, mid to low picks, etc). Need to come to a middle ground it seems..

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10-25-2012, 02:18 PM
  #432
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Or maybe the Leafs new GM will see the value in Luongo when Burke is fired before Christmas.
There would have to be a season for that to happen. A GM with any semblance of intelligence will see that there's a combination of variables impacting Roberto's value from a Leafs perspective.

The price has to be right and giving up a multitude of young players with good potential is not the right price.

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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
You're forgetting the new CBA will likely make us keep the albatross part of the contract. You'd just be getting the good cap hit part.
Unless Roberto decides that he wants to retire at the age of 40 or James Reimer finds he rookie form. Then we're stuck with 5/6/7 years of a 5.3m/year backup, similar to the situation the Canucks find themselves in right now.

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10-25-2012, 02:31 PM
  #433
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But you KNOW Luongo pulling a Heatley is impossible because Roberto has no track record of such behavior. Heck, Panthers fans still debate to this day who's at fault in his departure. Most put Lupien and Keenan squarely ahead of Luongo on the blame totem polem. In fact, Luongo was both blindsided and saddened by the trade.

So Luongo has a track record or he doesn't. Pick one and I will respond in kind.


Quote:
And you also KNOW that Luongo is as PC as they come. He's the funny guy, sooner to make his teammates laugh than to alienate them. Every single thing he's said to this point has been predictable, so much so that there's no need to even take them into account.

Oh I see, so unless it's a Heatley-esque tirade in the media it's meaningless. He couldn't be telling the truth if he's positive amirite?


Quote:
Don't act like the absence of Roberto "pulling a 180 and starting to take on a Heatley persona" means something.

Yet, the absence of anything negative means something. Hmmm...


Quote:
The most "controversial" thing to come out of his mouth is reporting that he and Gillis agreed that it was time for him to move on, which was anything but earth-shattering seeing Vigneault turn to Schneider to save the Canucks in their final three playoff games.

The "pumping the tires" bit wasn't controversial? I haven't kept track, but Heatley ever say anything controversial prior to the OTT incident?

I get what you're saying. You need someone to say both positive and negative things in the media, so as to take positive things he says at face value. Correct? If so, I'm saying that I can take Lu's statements at face value because he hasn't done anything for me to question them.


Quote:
But if you want to keep bringing up these innocuous quotes to reaffirm your belief that Luongo will wholeheartedly accept a platoon/backup role with Vancouver until Gillis brings a trade proposal his way that he will undoubtedly accept, regardless of the destination, then you go right ahead.

I don't need to reaffirm my belief. It's not shaken. But it seems you need it to be for some reason.

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10-25-2012, 02:33 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
It is for a mid-30s goaltender who has shown that he cannot hold the number one position in the playoffs.

A lot of question marks surround Roberto at the moment and that will be reflected in his value. Based on previous trades and what Brian Burke has told those around him, any trade involving the Leafs and Roberto will be with minimal value going the other way. If Mike Gillis isn't satisfied with that, then he could look for another sucker to take that contract on with the soon-to-be lower cap ceiling.

I could see something being worked out around Carter Ashton and a third or fourth round pick once Gillis realizes he's in a ****** bargaining position.
Jeez its like we talk and no one pays attention to what we say


The move to put in Schneider over Luongo had NOTHING to do with Luongo's play & it had EVERYTHING to do with the way the team played in front of him. It was the last attempt to wake a team up that was facing a HUGE up hill battle.

But if you really believe the bottom paragraph I don't even want to waste my time having a "discussion".

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10-25-2012, 02:34 PM
  #435
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Unless Roberto decides that he wants to retire at the age of 40 or James Reimer finds he rookie form. Then we're stuck with 5/6/7 years of a 5.3m/year backup, similar to the situation the Canucks find themselves in right now.
I don't think that you have many worries about Reimer relegating Luongo to a back up spot.

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10-25-2012, 02:37 PM
  #436
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I'm one of the more reasonable Leafs fans and have been trying to come up with a fair trade. That said however, and these are just my educated guesses, but here are rules when coming up with a proposal:

1) Gardiner, Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Grabovski, Finn will NOT be traded, for a mix of a)untouchable b)newly signed c)newly acquired

2) A 1st is not going to be traded. I'm not trying to be unreasonable but I find it highly, highly unlikely Burke would go down that path again. He's still hearing about the Kessel trade, even if it's top 10 protected I still think it will be a while before he trades another 1st.

3) I am a believer that Kadri and Frattin will probably be going the other way but at the same time they will not be traded in the same package. Burke wouldn't trade our 2 best forward prospects in one shot.

So putting those rules into consideration look for Kadri OR Frattin plus a couple of other pieces (Mac, Connolly, 2nd, Colborne, Ashton, Lombardi, Franson maybe Kulemin although he did just resign)

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10-25-2012, 02:42 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
I'm one of the more reasonable Leafs fans and have been trying to come up with a fair trade. That said however, and these are just my educated guesses, but here are rules when coming up with a proposal:

1) Gardiner, Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Grabovski, Finn will NOT be traded, for a mix of a)untouchable b)newly signed c)newly acquired

2) A 1st is not going to be traded. I'm not trying to be unreasonable but I find it highly, highly unlikely Burke would go down that path again. He's still hearing about the Kessel trade, even if it's top 10 protected I still think it will be a while before he trades another 1st.

3) I am a believer that Kadri and Frattin will probably be going the other way but at the same time they will not be traded in the same package. Burke wouldn't trade our 2 best forward prospects in one shot.

So putting those rules into consideration look for Kadri OR Frattin plus a couple of other pieces (Mac, Connolly, 2nd, Colborne, Ashton, Lombardi, Franson maybe Kulemin although he did just resign)
Aside from plugs, it would stand to reason that Vancouver should be looking for D futures since they have terrible depth in that area and are already a good team.

Toronto has one of the best D prospect groups in the League, so in my view that's what Gillis should be trying to pilfer. Gardiner and Rielly excluded of course.

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10-25-2012, 02:42 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
I'm one of the more reasonable Leafs fans and have been trying to come up with a fair trade. That said however, and these are just my educated guesses, but here are rules when coming up with a proposal:

1) Gardiner, Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Grabovski, Finn will NOT be traded, for a mix of a)untouchable b)newly signed c)newly acquired

2) A 1st is not going to be traded. I'm not trying to be unreasonable but I find it highly, highly unlikely Burke would go down that path again. He's still hearing about the Kessel trade, even if it's top 10 protected I still think it will be a while before he trades another 1st.

3) I am a believer that Kadri and Frattin will probably be going the other way but at the same time they will not be traded in the same package. Burke wouldn't trade our 2 best forward prospects in one shot.

So putting those rules into consideration look for Kadri OR Frattin plus a couple of other pieces (Mac, Connolly, 2nd, Colborne, Ashton, Lombardi, Franson maybe Kulemin although he did just resign)
That's the thing, the situation doesn't call for a "fair trade".

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10-25-2012, 02:43 PM
  #439
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That's the thing, the situation doesn't call for a "fair trade".
Agreed. We have Burke over a bit of a barrel here.
Seriously though, I'd include Finn in the list of possibilities. He's only a second round pick right?

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10-25-2012, 02:45 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
So putting those rules into consideration look for Kadri OR Frattin plus a couple of other pieces (Mac, Connolly, 2nd, Colborne, Ashton, Lombardi, Franson maybe Kulemin although he did just resign)
If that's the case I doubt a deal gets done between these two teams. Kulemin, Colborne, Frattin is the best I can come up with in that scenario, I can't see that being enough. We have Sedin, Booth, Higgins and Raymond on LW, Kulemin is a good player but we don't have anywhere for him to play.

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10-25-2012, 02:48 PM
  #441
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Agreed. We have Burke over a bit of a barrel here.
Seriously though, I'd include Finn in the list of possibilities. He's only a second round pick right?
I don't value a player from when he was taken in the draft. In my eyes he was a mid to late first round pick. Currently tearinng up the OHL, he's not going no where.

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10-25-2012, 02:50 PM
  #442
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I don't value a player from when he was taken in the draft. In my eyes he was a mid to late first round pick. Currently tearinng up the OHL, he's not going no where.
We'll see.
In my view you guys are saying you have too many untouchables though. If I was in your shoes I'd want to hang onto the good players as well. I doubt that Gillis has that same view though.

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10-25-2012, 02:52 PM
  #443
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While there's a contingent of Leaf fans that will insist on a lower package altogether (cap dumps, mid to low picks, etc). Need to come to a middle ground it seems..
I don't think so. It's my expectation that:

-The Canucks without Bozak + Ashton + 2nd are okay.
-The Leafs without Luongo will struggle to find consistency in net.

I'd rather just see how things play out if there is a season. I have a feeling that even if the Leafs capitulate the way the PA did in the last CBA negotiations, they still likely win the trade.

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10-25-2012, 03:00 PM
  #444
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We'll see.
In my view you guys are saying you have too many untouchables though. If I was in your shoes I'd want to hang onto the good players as well. I doubt that Gillis has that same view though.
Undoubtedly the Leafs will have to give up something they don't want to if Luongo is coming the other way, no arguments there.

To understand the Leafs perspective though, it's a bit tough for the Leafs to give up prospects acquired during the Burke era as they represent the new direction (hence the long list of untouchables). AFAIK none have been traded as of yet and the team has yet to mature enough where some of them would be viewed as expendable.

Burke is holding on to his youth very tightly right now (and for good reason) so he may not be willing to give up any future whatsoever despite the obvious short term benefits Luongo would bring.

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10-25-2012, 03:07 PM
  #445
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Undoubtedly the Leafs will have to give up something they don't want to if Luongo is coming the other way, no arguments there.

To understand the Leafs perspective though, it's a bit tough for the Leafs to give up prospects acquired during the Burke era as they represent the new direction (hence the long list of untouchables). AFAIK none have been traded as of yet and the team has yet to mature enough where some of them would be viewed as expendable.

Burke is holding on to his youth very tightly right now (and for good reason) so he may not be willing to give up any future whatsoever despite the obvious short term benefits Luongo would bring.
Like I said I don't blame you for wanting to hang onto some promising prospects. Who knows you may even be able to swing a deal without trading players that you place significant value on. The risk is that another team gets involved though and that you end up without Luongo. I'd also be fine hanging onto him until the trade deadline or so if all we are offered are players like Bozak who I don't really see significantly improving the team. Just my 2 cents.

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10-25-2012, 03:19 PM
  #446
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If giving up guys like Frattin, Bozak and Colborne is "selling the farm" for the Leafs, that's a pretty ****** farm...
No kidding...

I like Bozak, but he's essentially a good 3rd line center with one year till he becomes a UFA.

Frattin is turning 25, and was on pace for 12 goals over a full NHL season. He did score 24 goals in 36 AHL games, but that was with a 24% shooting percentage as well. Even for the AHL that is pretty high. AHL star Alexandre Giroux has a 16% career AHL shooting percentage. Based on that, Frattin is more likely a 30-35 goal AHL scorer so far. Probably would be happy if he produced 15-20 in the NHL.

Colborne is big and talented, but hasn't produced a huge amount yet. He had nearly identical offensive results in his 3rd season after being drafted as Jordan Schroeder did. Last season wasn't an improvement over that, although his wrist injury didn't help with that.

I can't really see that as "selling the farm". That should be more reserved for including pieces like Rielly, unprotected 1sts, Gardiner, etc....

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10-25-2012, 03:33 PM
  #447
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It is for a mid-30s goaltender who has shown that he cannot hold the number one position in the playoffs.

A lot of question marks surround Roberto at the moment and that will be reflected in his value. Based on previous trades and what Brian Burke has told those around him, any trade involving the Leafs and Roberto will be with minimal value going the other way. If Mike Gillis isn't satisfied with that, then he could look for another sucker to take that contract on with the soon-to-be lower cap ceiling.

I could see something being worked out around Carter Ashton and a third or fourth round pick once Gillis realizes he's in a ****** bargaining position.
A few seasons ago, you could have said that Thomas was a mid to late-30s goalie who lost the number one position to a rookie goalie.

It shouldn't really hinder the goalie's value too much if someone like Schneider and Rask edges them for the number one position, given that those goalies would be major upgrades to Toronto's goaltending as well. It's not like they lost out to Gustavsson for example.

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10-25-2012, 03:35 PM
  #448
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No kidding...

I like Bozak, but he's essentially a good 3rd line center with one year till he becomes a UFA.

Frattin is turning 25, and was on pace for 12 goals over a full NHL season. He did score 24 goals in 36 AHL games, but that was with a 24% shooting percentage as well. Even for the AHL that is pretty high. AHL star Alexandre Giroux has a 16% career AHL shooting percentage. Based on that, Frattin is more likely a 30-35 goal AHL scorer so far. Probably would be happy if he produced 15-20 in the NHL.

Colborne is big and talented, but hasn't produced a huge amount yet. He had nearly identical offensive results in his 3rd season after being drafted as Jordan Schroeder did. Last season wasn't an improvement over that, although his wrist injury didn't help with that.

I can't really see that as "selling the farm". That should be more reserved for including pieces like Rielly, unprotected 1sts, Gardiner, etc....
Then you obviously don't understand the situation Quinn/JFJ and Burke have created for this franchise. (See Seguin/Hamilton/Edler/Rask as recent examples)

Our prospect pool is mediocre at best - but we haven't had a "farm" team in 20 years. So every piece we acquire holds great value to the fanbase.

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10-25-2012, 03:37 PM
  #449
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I'd include Finn in the list of possibilities. He's only a second round pick right?
What a ridiculous statement.

Shea Weber was just a second round pick as well.

Matt Finn has shown that he has wonderful potential so far. He plays the most minutes on the blue line, and is a catalyst in every situation. I think the Leafs managed to draft another player that could slot into the top three D positions within 3 or 4 years.

Mike Gillis would be looking for where that horseshoe is hidden in his behind if he could get Burke to include Finn in any deal for Roberto.

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10-25-2012, 03:42 PM
  #450
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I still find it amusing that his cap-circumventing contract is looked down upon. It just seems weird to have to defend it.


These deals were red-flagged because they broke the spirit of the CBA. They were granting their teams an unfair advantage among the competition, but now they're suddenly viewed as disadvantageous? The complete opposite perception the GMs signing them had/have.


On that point, Gillis/Gilman have done an excellent job with contracts to this point. Many of the Canucks deals are well below market value. Even players coming in are taking pay cuts (Garrison). Therefore, I'm assuming they did their due diligence in deciding to ink Luongo to his lifetime contract. It just seems against type to negotiate that well with everyone else and then drop the ball with one of their best players. Yet many don't think that's the case. That this same tandem that does so well with contracts in general, completely fell apart on the contract for Lu? The guy they signed to a cheater deal via a loophole they exploited before it was closed. Seems completely contradictory.

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