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The All Purpose Luongo Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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Old
10-26-2012, 02:54 PM
  #676
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAMOUSfin View Post
Connolly+Kadri+ is a good basis for a deal. Not sure Burke would easily give up Biggs though and I'd rather have him switched out for a defensive prospect. Also I'd like to get Franson as a 6/7 Rome replacement PP QB option.

Connolly+Kadri+Franson+Blacker/Finn/Percy
Make it Finn and swap Franson for a 2nd and I could live with that.

Connolly + Kadri + Finn + 2nd.

Two good prospects and a serviceable cap dump and a 2nd in a decent draft.

Nothing exciting, but fair.

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10-26-2012, 03:00 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Make it Finn and swap Franson for a 2nd and I could live with that.

Connolly + Kadri + Finn + 2nd.

Two good prospects and a serviceable cap dump and a 2nd in a decent draft.

Nothing exciting, but fair.
I would be fine with that.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:01 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Man I hope when a deal is made it's not with Toronto. Not a lot of high-end talent in that organization and even less that would be available... Hopefully, as a Canucks' fan, Gills has some better options...
You are not going to get high end talent back for him.

A higher end prospect or pick is as good as it gets.

I have no idea why Leafs add a "cap dump". That is just adding value on the Canuck side for no reason.


Last edited by FireEverybody*: 10-26-2012 at 03:05 PM. Reason: connolly contract is up this year lol big dump indeed ...
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Old
10-26-2012, 03:04 PM
  #679
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Just to switch it up a bit and think outside the box, how about a 3-way deal with Columbus?

Toronto:
In: Luongo, Raymond
Out: Kulemin, Kadri, Reimer

Columbus:
In: Kadri, Reimer, Van 2nd
Out: Anisimov, NYR/LAK 1st, Mason (cap dump)

Vancouver:
In: Kulemin, Anisimov, NYR/LAK 1st, Mason (cap dump)
Out: Luongo, Raymond, 2nd

Obviously there will be people who are unhappy with this, like there are with any proposal, but I'm tired of rehashing the same proposal over and over.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:08 PM
  #680
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I highly doubt Columbus has any interest in Reimer.

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10-26-2012, 03:08 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
You are not going to get high end talent back for him.

A higher end prospect or pick is as good as it gets.

I have no idea why Leafs add a "cap dump". That is just adding value on the Canuck side for no reason.
Some Leaf fans have far too long a list of 'higher end prospects' that they consider off limits. The reality is that only a handful of the propsects will make the team and contribute siginificantly. I'm fine with excluding the cap dump as that was only included to help the Leafs' cap situation.

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10-26-2012, 03:10 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Make it Finn and swap Franson for a 2nd and I could live with that.

Connolly + Kadri + Finn + 2nd.

Two good prospects and a serviceable cap dump and a 2nd in a decent draft.

Nothing exciting, but fair.
I too could live with this.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:12 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
Just to switch it up a bit and think outside the box, how about a 3-way deal with Columbus?

Toronto:
In: Luongo, Raymond
Out: Kulemin, Kadri, Reimer

Columbus:
In: Kadri, Reimer, Van 2nd
Out: Anisimov, NYR/LAK 1st, Mason (cap dump)

Vancouver:
In: Kulemin, Anisimov, NYR/LAK 1st, Mason (cap dump)
Out: Luongo, Raymond, 2nd

Obviously there will be people who are unhappy with this, like there are with any proposal, but I'm tired of rehashing the same proposal over and over.
Cbus hates this.
They would get Raymond too imo. and still hate.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:14 PM
  #684
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I'm really bent on getting a RS depth D with size: Holzer/Franson... just not Komisarek.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:17 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
If I were Gillis I'd demand something like the following from Toronto:

Kulemin
Kadri + 2nd/ 1st
Fin

Kulemin would probably look good playing with the Sedins, and Burrows and Kesler would draw a lot of penalties if the opposition had to tolerate playing the both of them being on one line.

At the same time Toronto is a much better team now, which has to be important to Burke. I don't know how many more years he can get away with having so little to show. They NEED a goalie. The guys they've got now have had a few hot spurts, but they can't be relied on to get the job done for an entire season.

At the same time Vancouver isn't going to walk away from a Luongo deal for possible futures or for some deal that's only going to enhance their bottom 6. Their bottom six is great. In fact, the Canucks roster as a whole is pretty damn good. They just don't know how to kick it into high gear when the playoffs come around. Vancouver gets a power forward who could play very well on either of Vancouver's top 3 lines.
I like this offer but realistically it would need to be changed a bit to placate TO.

To Van:
Kulemin
Connolly/McArthur
Colbourne
Franson
Blacker/2nd

To T.O:
Luongo
Raymond

We get a roster player with size who we can use in tandem with Higgins to fill the 2nd RW line hole and the other plays the 3rd line either side (Hansen can play either side as well) and is locked up for 2 years at a decent cap hit. A player who can battle for top 6 in McArthur or a #3C or Playmaker w/ Kes in Conolly. A 6/7 Dman who doesn't want to be in Toronto anyways and can replace Rome. A Solid forward prospect who we can afford to let develop in the AHL for a few years. Or a toss-up between a B-D prospect or a 2nd in a deep draft.

Toronto gets an great-to-elite goalie and a player with speed, hands and great defensive ability. They get their cap dump in Conolly or McArthur, dont give up Reilly, Kadri, Gardiner, Finn or a 1st.

Please no Kadri, he is not anything close to what we need as a return. Gillis got rid of Hodgson not just because of his personality/Daddy issues but because as far as Offensive Centres we have Henrik and Kesler and have time for an eventual replacement to be traded here/drafted/develop in the minors. I would rather sign Arrnot than go after Bozak or Kadri. Kadri is soft, weak, came to what should've been his most important camp in apparently terrible shape and thats after spending the summer with Gary Roberts. Tanev did as well apparently and is in the best shape of his life.

Kadri to me seems like T.O's Patrick White with slightly more upside


Last edited by Seatoo: 10-26-2012 at 03:25 PM.
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Old
10-26-2012, 03:23 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Some Leaf fans have far too long a list of 'higher end prospects' that they consider off limits. The reality is that only a handful of the propsects will make the team and contribute siginificantly. I'm fine with excluding the cap dump as that was only included to help the Leafs' cap situation.
Depends .... Example Rielly is just not happening.
We cant afford to trade 3,4,+ of or recent draft picks .. well ... because we are terrible lol.

We should wait until there is a cba. That is when we will have an idea of luo's value.

It could jump or it could drop off the face of the Earth.

PRO TIP: one is more likely.


Last edited by TMI: 10-26-2012 at 04:08 PM. Reason: playing mod
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Old
10-26-2012, 03:25 PM
  #687
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You should think of Kadri as an offensive winger more than an offensive center. He'd easily become one of our top prospects... with the way Kassian is producing in the AHL and Jensen is producing in the SEL (8G, 3A, 11pts in 16GP!!!) I'd have to put him at 3rd in the organization.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:27 PM
  #688
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Kadri could be a decent fit with Kesler/Booth right now. That said, if he doesn't fit into that role, I really don't see a spot for him on the roster.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:28 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
Depends .... Example Rielly is just not happening.
We cant afford to trade 3,4,+ of or recent draft picks .. well ... because we are terrible lol.

We should wait until there is a cba. That is when we will have an idea of luo's value.

It could jump or it could drop off the face of the Earth.

PRO TIP: one is more likely.
Fair enough. I can see why you wouldn't want to trade a few prospects as that is the team's future. That's the way to build. I'd rather target one prospect, one player and maybe a second round pick.


Last edited by TMI: 10-26-2012 at 04:08 PM. Reason: quote
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Old
10-26-2012, 03:30 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by FAMOUSfin View Post
You should think of Kadri as an offensive winger more than an offensive center. He'd easily become one of our top prospects... with the way Kassian is producing in the AHL and Jensen is producing in the SEL (8G, 3A, 11pts in 16GP!!!) I'd have to put him at 3rd in the organization.
I would agree, he may get to being a center one day but he won't be starting there as is the case for quite a few players.

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10-26-2012, 03:52 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Man I hope when a deal is made it's not with Toronto. Not a lot of high-end talent in that organization and even less that would be available... Hopefully, as a Canucks' fan, Gills has some better options...
Agreed. I can understand Toronto not wanting to give up what valuable pieces they do have (although seriously question how they can expect to get an elite player for spare parts) but its frustrating seeing Canuck fans willing to essentially give Luongo away for those spare parts. I'm just glad that Gillis didn't break down in the summer and dump Luongo like some people seem to think he'll do. I fully believe he will bring back a valuable asset like he should.

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10-26-2012, 03:54 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
i think every leaf fan would prefer to include macarthur instead of kulemin but i think most would agree kulemin is the better piece. despite not putting up points last season he was still an asset defensively and is cheap. there is also a lot of people who think that kulemins stats from last season were do to some sort of depression from his close friends death. im not sure, i guess we will see how he bounces when hockey resumes.

i dont think a deal around lombardi, colborne, and kulemin is a deal vancouver jumps at. it doesnt include any high profile guys or anything sexy but it does offer 2 roster players who can contribute right away.

this would be a deal vancouver might have to settle for but as a leaf fan i cant see it being one they jump on.

its a shame that contracts have the ability to impact a player negatively. look at finger, had fletcher signed him for $1-1.5 million he would probably be playing in the nhl as a 5/6 guy and most people would like what he brings. by signing him to $3.5 million no one wanted anything to do with him. luongo is an above average goalie, how much above average is debatable. imo he falls somewhere between 5-10 in the league which would be a massive upgrade in toronto and for many teams in the league. the issue is the length of his contract. it is undeniably long and the potential for complications towards the end of it are pretty high. i think it is one thing to reward your franchise player with a contract like that but it is another to acquire someone who signed the contract with another team.

luongo would 100% benefit the leafs right away but if vancouver insists on something significantly more the kulemin, lombardi, colborne i would hope burke would walk away. the contract is too scary for my taste. the other thing is the leafs are probably a good 3-5 years away from being truly competitive. at that time luongo would be in his late 30s. its possible he might be ok then but it is a big risk to hope a goalie will be able to play into his late 30s.



A pretty reasoned response. You bring up good points about Kulemin and the settle value for the Canucks. However, I cannot agree with your assessment on the contract. It's been discussed ad nauseum, but I just don't understand the perspective that it's a poor deal for a rich team. It is the exact opposite for a rich team. It's why it was offered by Gillis to someone he views as a franchise player.


The contract is essentially built on altering his cap hit first and foremost. Consider that Luongo's prior 4 year deal, right before he signed his cap-circumvention deal, was 6.75m for 4 yrs. What's his actual salary for the next 5 years? 6.714m dollars. So not only is he getting paid a salary commensurate to his prior 4 year contract salary, the cap hit lowers the cap hit to 5.33m per year making it one of the best value deals in the league.


Here is my further take on it:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I still find it amusing that his cap-circumventing contract is looked down upon. It just seems weird to have to defend it.


These deals were red-flagged because they broke the spirit of the CBA. They were granting their teams an unfair advantage among the competition, but now they're suddenly viewed as disadvantageous? The complete opposite perception the GMs signing them had/have.


On that point, Gillis/Gilman have done an excellent job with contracts to this point. Many of the Canucks deals are well below market value. Even players coming in are taking pay cuts (Garrison). Therefore, I'm assuming they did their due diligence in deciding to ink Luongo to his lifetime contract. It just seems against type to negotiate that well with everyone else and then drop the ball with one of their best players. Yet many don't think that's the case. That this same tandem that does so well with contracts in general, completely fell apart on the contract for Lu? The guy they signed to a cheater deal via a loophole they exploited before it was closed. Seems completely contradictory.


So the anti-contract talks are completely outside the realm of reason IMO. Gillis knew Luongo's intention to play it out. Gilman was there to double-check the deal. They both were able to lock up one of the 4 key pieces on their team to a "cheater" deal. Do these people not know how to do their jobs? Or do people on a message board think they know better?

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10-26-2012, 04:14 PM
  #693
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
A pretty reasoned response. You bring up good points about Kulemin and the settle value for the Canucks. However, I cannot agree with your assessment on the contract. It's been discussed ad nauseum, but I just don't understand the perspective that it's a poor deal for a rich team. It is the exact opposite for a rich team. It's why it was offered by Gillis to someone he views as a franchise player.


The contract is essentially built on altering his cap hit first and foremost. Consider that Luongo's prior 4 year deal, right before he signed his cap-circumvention deal, was 6.75m for 4 yrs. What's his actual salary for the next 5 years? 6.714m dollars. So not only is he getting paid a salary commensurate to his prior 4 year contract salary, the cap hit lowers the cap hit to 5.33m per year making it one of the best value deals in the league.


Here is my further take on it:







So the anti-contract talks are completely outside the realm of reason IMO. Gillis knew Luongo's intention to play it out. Gilman was there to double-check the deal. They both were able to lock up one of the 4 key pieces on their team to a "cheater" deal. Do these people not know how to do their jobs? Or do people on a message board think they know better?
Agreed 100%

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10-26-2012, 04:14 PM
  #694
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I agree the Canucks want to trade Luongo, but I don't think they will do so and accept a bad deal. If Gillis can't get a good deal for Luongo then he will hold on to him. Eventually some team will see the opportunity to solidify their goaltending position and make an acceptable offer.

I think people need to realize that Gillis holds the cards as to what happens with Luongo, and if they try to call his bluff he's likely to turn up a full house.
I understand that since I wouldn't want to give up a pretty darn good goalie for ntohing, but it's not like what we're offering you (the deal that most other Canuck fans are agreeing with) is terrible. I agree all the deals including Komisarek/Connolly/or any cap dump make no sense for you guys, but for us to actually give anything of high substantial worth is not very probable. It's pretty over the top to expect a top prospect from any team + a 1st for Luongo given the current situation.

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10-26-2012, 04:21 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by BayStBullies View Post
This might be closer to reality:

To Vancouver:
Connolly
Bozak
Blacker
3rd round pick

To Leafs:
Luongo
+1

Burke's strategy has always been to navigate the cap system carefully and capitalize on the other team's mistakes. See Lebda for Franson, etc.

This is classic Burke and Canuck fans are going to see this soon enough.. Bozak is the centerpiece of the package coming back folks. The CENTERPIECE. Which means anything else in that deal is lesser value than Bozak. Think 3rd round pick, Jerry D'Amigo, Carter Ashton, etc.

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10-26-2012, 04:21 PM
  #696
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Make it Finn and swap Franson for a 2nd and I could live with that.

Connolly + Kadri + Finn + 2nd.

Two good prospects and a serviceable cap dump and a 2nd in a decent draft.

Nothing exciting, but fair.
This is definatly the fairest trade.

Vancouver fans would want that 2nd to be a first

TML would want Kadri left out

But its a great middle point.

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10-26-2012, 04:22 PM
  #697
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You are not going to get high end talent back for him.

A higher end prospect or pick is as good as it gets.
My point is as a Canucks fan I'd rather have a prospect included from a team like Florida that has a much deeper talent pool. Someone like Howden, Petrovic, Shore or Robak excites me a lot more than Blacker, Colborne or even Kadri. (*Just examples, please no Florida fans tell me these guys are untouchable yada yada yada)... Just a chance to have a prospect break-out from a deeper team rather than somewhere like Toronto where these guys are dissected and tracked since they're drafted.

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10-26-2012, 04:28 PM
  #698
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Originally Posted by LaymanX View Post
+1

Burke's strategy has always been to navigate the cap system carefully and capitalize on the other team's mistakes. See Lebda for Franson, etc.

This is classic Burke and Canuck fans are going to see this soon enough.. Bozak is the centerpiece of the package coming back folks. The CENTERPIECE. Which means anything else in that deal is lesser value than Bozak. Think 3rd round pick, Jerry D'Amigo, Carter Ashton, etc.
It's ok to state your opinion, but to force it down everyone's throat is arrogant. If Bozak is the centrepiece and nothing else of much value is coming back then the Canucks will probably turn somewhere else, as there are reportedly as much as 5 teams interested. I understand Leaf fans do not want give up much value, but many of these proposals are just unrealistic.

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10-26-2012, 04:28 PM
  #699
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Agreed. I can understand Toronto not wanting to give up what valuable pieces they do have (although seriously question how they can expect to get an elite player for spare parts) but its frustrating seeing Canuck fans willing to essentially give Luongo away for those spare parts. I'm just glad that Gillis didn't break down in the summer and dump Luongo like some people seem to think he'll do. I fully believe he will bring back a valuable asset like he should.
You can believe that if you want, but as others have posted here over and over again:

i) He's not staying in Vancouver
ii) There is no market for his services
iii) Burke is aware of i) and ii)

To be honest, Bozak is a fair trade for Luongo, (believe it or not). I saw his first career goal in person and have been following his career ever since. He has great hockey IQ, works very hard on the faceoff game, has underrated playmaking abilities, is a very responsible backchecker and helps anchor guys like Kessel and Lupes. All at a very affordable caphit. His offensive production (or lack thereof) isn't from lack of effort.. maybe he needs to tweak his finish a bit?

There's a reason why he (and Kulemin) were Wilson's fav for a long time.

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10-26-2012, 04:29 PM
  #700
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Originally Posted by LaymanX View Post
+1

Burke's strategy has always been to navigate the cap system carefully and capitalize on the other team's mistakes. See Lebda for Franson, etc.

This is classic Burke and Canuck fans are going to see this soon enough.. Bozak is the centerpiece of the package coming back folks. The CENTERPIECE. Which means anything else in that deal is lesser value than Bozak. Think 3rd round pick, Jerry D'Amigo, Carter Ashton, etc.
I'm hoping it is classic Burke too!
Two first rounders and a second.

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