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Best Two-Way Player Ever

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02-03-2005, 07:13 PM
  #1
canucksfan
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Best Two-Way Player Ever

Who is the best two-way Player ever?

I think it's Bobby Clarke. He was a great penatly killer and he scored the goals. He also was great on draws. Another player that comes to mind is Bob Gainey. The best defensive player of all time in my opinion. However, he couldn't put up the points like Clarke could.

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Old
02-03-2005, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
Who is the best two-way Player ever?

I think it's Bobby Clarke. He was a great penatly killer and he scored the goals. He also was great on draws. Another player that comes to mind is Bob Gainey. The best defensive player of all time in my opinion. However, he couldn't put up the points like Clarke could.
Bobby Clarke is a good choice, I like Derek Sanderson here and Walt Tzachuck ahead of Gainey

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02-03-2005, 09:30 PM
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Bobby Orr. One of the best defensive defensemen of his era(if not of all-time) and quite possibly the best offensive playmaker of all-time.

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02-03-2005, 10:33 PM
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There are few lists Orr wouldn't top imo. Keon should at least be included in the conversation, Marcotte, my dad swore at Claude Provost alot so he must have been good, Larry Patey and Tony Currie had terrific reps when they were active ( I didn't see much of either but did see Patey a little bit).

Bryan Trottier, Bourne, hell all the centers on the island when they were real good. Sanderson sure, Kasper. Bruins have had a ton of these guys. I'd have to pick Craig MacTavish as my homer Oiler pick.

Hmmm. Taking out Orr, I'd vote for either Keon or Trottier.

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02-03-2005, 10:52 PM
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I've been doing some work on defense for older players. I'll post the results when I'm finished. Tentatively, I have Orr and Clarke are ranked as two of the best ever--when they were on the ice, their team hardly ever gave up goals.

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02-03-2005, 10:55 PM
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Bob Gainey would be realy high on my list and also Bobby Orr and Jere Lethinen is not to bad either.

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02-03-2005, 10:56 PM
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I never even thought of Orr. I was thinking of forwards and never thought of defencemen. I'd say he was the best.

I don't like the plus minus stat that much but he was +124 in one season. That's incredible.

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02-03-2005, 11:08 PM
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As I said earlier, my work on the subject of player defense isn't done, but here are the (very) preliminary results:

Larry Robinson 1422 307.3
Bobby Clarke 1185 271.2
Brad McCrimmon 1267 265.5
Craig Ramsay 1102 255.5
Rod Langway 1018 243.0
Scott Stevens 1646 240.4
Denis Potvin 1089 230.9
Bill Hajt 876 229.1
Jimmy Watson 630 219.5
Serge Savard 1082 212.2
Doug Jarvis 988 200.0
Bob Gainey 1191 199.3
Chris Chelios 1370 198.2
Guy Carbonneau 1364 191.5
Steve Shutt 956 188.9
Joe Watson 800 187.3
Andre Dupont 826 186.8
Mike Ramsey 1113 178.4
Keith Magnuson 615 170.3
Ray Bourque 1665 170.2
Craig Ludwig 1304 169.8
Bryan Trottier 1309 166.2
Brian Skrudland 923 166.1
Bill Barber 929 164.1
Bobby Orr 630 162.4
Guy Lafleur 1160 160.1
Clark Gillies 982 154.4
Ken Daneyko 1310 150.5
Mike Bossy 771 147.1
Jacques Lemaire 896 144.0

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02-03-2005, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
As I said earlier, my work on the subject of player defense isn't done, but here are the (very) preliminary results:

Larry Robinson 1422 307.3
Bobby Clarke 1185 271.2
Brad McCrimmon 1267 265.5
Craig Ramsay 1102 255.5
Rod Langway 1018 243.0
Scott Stevens 1646 240.4
Denis Potvin 1089 230.9
Bill Hajt 876 229.1
Jimmy Watson 630 219.5
Serge Savard 1082 212.2
Doug Jarvis 988 200.0
Bob Gainey 1191 199.3
Chris Chelios 1370 198.2
Guy Carbonneau 1364 191.5
Steve Shutt 956 188.9
Joe Watson 800 187.3
Andre Dupont 826 186.8
Mike Ramsey 1113 178.4
Keith Magnuson 615 170.3
Ray Bourque 1665 170.2
Craig Ludwig 1304 169.8
Bryan Trottier 1309 166.2
Brian Skrudland 923 166.1
Bill Barber 929 164.1
Bobby Orr 630 162.4
Guy Lafleur 1160 160.1
Clark Gillies 982 154.4
Ken Daneyko 1310 150.5
Mike Bossy 771 147.1
Jacques Lemaire 896 144.0
The hell is Shutt, Lafleur and Bossy doing in the top 30 of best 2 way players of all time?

Anyways I would clearly go with Trottier... perfect player to center Bossy, could hit, take hits, make plays, score goals, lead his team to cup wins, and actually lead the league in scoring once when players like Dionne and Lafleur were at their primes! Very talented 2 way player and for me quite possibly the best.

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02-04-2005, 01:37 AM
  #10
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Sergei Fedorov should be mentioned somewhere as one of the top two-way players of all time. Maybe not THE best but pretty damn close.

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02-04-2005, 03:03 AM
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Number 4.

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02-04-2005, 05:59 AM
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# 17 Jari Kurri

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02-04-2005, 07:12 AM
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Depends on how you define 2 way player. When people say 2 way these days they seem to mean defense first. It's hard to beat Gordie Howe as a 2 way forward.

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02-04-2005, 07:18 AM
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Ray Bourque is the first name I thought of.

As far as a forward...I'll take Ron Francis.

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02-04-2005, 08:00 AM
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All those guys are great.As for current guys........ To me if Forsberg never scored a single point during the year he'd still be valuable as one of the best defensive centers in the league.Of course,he scores a lot of points.Great two way player when healthy.

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02-04-2005, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
The hell is Shutt, Lafleur and Bossy doing in the top 30 of best 2 way players of all time?

Anyways I would clearly go with Trottier... perfect player to center Bossy, could hit, take hits, make plays, score goals, lead his team to cup wins, and actually lead the league in scoring once when players like Dionne and Lafleur were at their primes! Very talented 2 way player and for me quite possibly the best.
I don't think it's a big surprise to see Bossy on the list, he was very underrated defensively.

I didn't expect LaFleur and Shutt to be on the list but the numbers are very clear: when those two were on the ice, their opponents hardly ever scored.

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02-04-2005, 10:00 AM
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To me this is all Trottier. Yes players like Gainey, Jarvis, Carbonneau and the always under-rated Joel Otto were better defensive players than Trottier, but other than Gainey no one came close to his numbers. And unlike modern two way forwards like Modano, Federov and Lehtinen, he had a real tough physical aspect to his game that made him an all-around threat.

Clarke makes this close, but to me Bobby spent too much time in the penalty box to be as effective. They both have over 1400 PIMs but Clarke got his in 7 fewer seasons. And for a player of his talent and what he brings to the Flyers he needed to be on the ice more IMO.

So it's Trottier.

For defencemen it begins and ends with Orr. You don't think of him as a physical guy because all his highlights are usually goals and such but the man was effective in the corners and was as tough as they come. Put that with his speed and passing and no one comes close.

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02-04-2005, 11:27 AM
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Bob Gainey, as my favourite alltime player (behind Carbonneau of course)....

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02-04-2005, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
I don't think it's a big surprise to see Bossy on the list, he was very underrated defensively.

I didn't expect LaFleur and Shutt to be on the list but the numbers are very clear: when those two were on the ice, their opponents hardly ever scored.
Yeah well I think that was because of two reasons:

1- Lafleur and Shutt would almost always have possession of the puck and just keep shooting away at the oppostion's goaltender.

2- Big Three (Robinson, Savard, Lapointe) 95 percent of the time 2 of these 3 guys were on the ice when Shutt and Lafleur were, and sometimes even all 3 of them, and this really helped.

However I wouldn't say they were two way players. I dont think I've ever seen Shutt and Lafleur play defense.

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02-04-2005, 12:08 PM
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Paul Coffey, early years.

Never has a more defensively responsible forward played in the NHL... oh, wait...

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02-04-2005, 12:12 PM
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I would agree with Clarke, Trottier and Gainey as the top three. However, another person to think about would be Steve Larmer. Over a 1000 points and one of the smartest players to play the game.

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Old
02-04-2005, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops
All those guys are great.As for current guys........ To me if Forsberg never scored a single point during the year he'd still be valuable as one of the best defensive centers in the league.Of course,he scores a lot of points.Great two way player when healthy.
Tough to be considered a real good defensive center when:

you don't kill penalties
you are a terrible face-off guy

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02-04-2005, 02:16 PM
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Fedorov comes to mind, same with Gainey.

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Old
02-04-2005, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah well I think that was because of two reasons:

1- Lafleur and Shutt would almost always have possession of the puck and just keep shooting away at the oppostion's goaltender.

2- Big Three (Robinson, Savard, Lapointe) 95 percent of the time 2 of these 3 guys were on the ice when Shutt and Lafleur were, and sometimes even all 3 of them, and this really helped.

However I wouldn't say they were two way players. I dont think I've ever seen Shutt and Lafleur play defense.
I agree with you on both points. I certainly didn't mean LaFleur and Shutt were defense-first players, but what I did mean is that when they were on the ice, their opponents rarely scored.

LaFleur, Shutt, Robinson, Savard and Lapointe are all on the top 35 on my list. The Canadiens were quite possibly the greatest defensive team ever.

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02-04-2005, 04:14 PM
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Dave Keon
Steve Yzerman
Bryan Trottier
Steve Kasper
Bobby Orr
Peter Forsberg
Bob Gainey (although he should have scored a bit more)
Sergei Fedorov

THESE guys are the greats!

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