HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Players on Canadian teams dinged on pension

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-29-2012, 08:51 AM
  #1
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 6,191
vCash: 500
Players on Canadian teams dinged on pension

Players on Canadian teams dinged on pension

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...656/story.html

The NHL pension plan is funded and administered jointly by the league and the players’ association. For the first 160 games of a player’s career, he gets $24,000 a season in his pension fund, regardless of where he plays. But things get more complicated after a player has logged the equivalent of two full seasons in the NHL.

The annual payments jump to about $50,000 a year — the actual amount varies depending on exchange rates — but Canadian tax laws cap pension contributions at $24,000. A Canadian player gets $24,000 dumped into his pension account and receives a cheque for the remaining amount — after the tax man takes his cut.

Darche added that the NHLPA is lobbying the federal government for an exemption that would allow more money to be placed into the pension fund.

“The difference is huge,” Darche said. “A player who plays 15 seasons with a U.S. team will have about $1 million in his pension account, while a player with a Canadian team would have $375,000.”

cbcwpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 08:54 AM
  #2
MrFunnyWobbl
"inside mad"
 
MrFunnyWobbl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unlocated
Country: Umm al-Qaiwan
Posts: 19,462
vCash: 966
Send a message via AIM to MrFunnyWobbl
You left out the comparison to an average persons pension.

MrFunnyWobbl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:23 AM
  #3
Dojji*
Fight the Hate
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 16,821
vCash: 500
Not sure it's relevant TBH. what we have here is teams that have yet another competitive disadvantage when trying to collect talent.

Dojji* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:41 AM
  #4
Holdurbreathe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFunnyWobbl View Post
You left out the comparison to an average persons pension.
The average person doesn't get the top jobs in any industry or the pensions that go with them.

Every time I see this type of argument, all it seems to suggest is bitterness for being average and envy of those that aren't.

Holdurbreathe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:47 AM
  #5
HabsByTheBay
Registered User
 
HabsByTheBay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London
Country: United States
Posts: 1,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
The average person doesn't get the top jobs in any industry or the pensions that go with them.

Every time I see this type of argument, all it seems to suggest is bitterness for being average and envy of those that aren't.
Also it's misplaced anger. People have crappy pensions. NHL players aren't the reason why. Cheapskate employers are.

HabsByTheBay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:51 AM
  #6
digdug41982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 26,473
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
The average person doesn't get the top jobs in any industry or the pensions that go with them.

Every time I see this type of argument, all it seems to suggest is bitterness for being average and envy of those that aren't.
Yeah, no ****ing kidding. You want big money, find a way to make it. You don't, be happy with what you have. The ****ing sense of entitlement and bitterness is mortifying.

digdug41982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:53 AM
  #7
predfan98
Registered User
 
predfan98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,495
vCash: 500
They can start drawing pension-- a guaranteed amount-- at age 45. Guaranteed and administered by the union......

predfan98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 10:27 AM
  #8
UsernameWasTaken
Let's Go Blue Jays!
 
UsernameWasTaken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFunnyWobbl View Post
You left out the comparison to an average persons pension.
what does that have to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Yeah, no ****ing kidding. You want big money, find a way to make it. You don't, be happy with what you have. The ****ing sense of entitlement and bitterness is mortifying.
No kidding. I find the obsession with the "lowest common denominator" around here incredibly obnoxious. How many posts have I see of people whining "last year my boss told me and the other cashiers at the campus photocopying store that we had to take a pay cut so i agreed because it was better than getting fired and it's so unfair that the players get paid a lot of money in bad economic times, that's not the way business works!!1!!1"

UsernameWasTaken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 11:07 AM
  #9
digdug41982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 26,473
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
No kidding. I find the obsession with the "lowest common denominator" around here incredibly obnoxious. How many posts have I see of people whining "last year my boss told me and the other cashiers at the campus photocopying store that we had to take a pay cut so i agreed because it was better than getting fired and it's so unfair that the players get paid a lot of money in bad economic times, that's not the way business works!!1!!1"
Yeah...this is a 100% fact and a lesson in life to anyone who wants / needs it. If you are not pushing forward, you are left behind. And that's totally fine, there is nothing wrong with being content with your current situation, you earned it and if it makes you happy, be happy, God bless you. However, if you are not happy, do not look onto others with jealousy, it is counterproductive to your own progress and if you wanted sympothy from others, you surely are not going to get it that way. I don't care if it is the NHL players, the neighbor next door, the guy from high school you thought was a loser that is driving a luxury car now...doesn't matter.

digdug41982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 11:36 AM
  #10
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 12,047
vCash: 500
Surprised no one asked the question: what's the motivation for Canada to cap pension contributions to $24k/year?

mouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:00 PM
  #11
epo
Registered User
 
epo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 331
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Surprised no one asked the question: what's the motivation for Canada to cap pension contributions to $24k/year?
Tax allocation base on our society's values.

epo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:32 PM
  #12
TrillMike
Registered User
 
TrillMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
They can start drawing pension-- a guaranteed amount-- at age 45. Guaranteed and administered by the union......
This ^. Is it fair that other guys doing the same thing in south of the border have a lot more? Probably not, but compared to the average guy/gal who might retire around the age of 60-65 (if they're lucky)... C'mon.

TrillMike is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:39 PM
  #13
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,468
vCash: 500
Why can't they just put the remainder of it in an RRSP account instead?

Ari91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:41 PM
  #14
epo
Registered User
 
epo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 331
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Why can't they just put the remainder of it in an RRSP account instead?
That's what they are doing in the first place.

epo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 01:14 PM
  #15
barneyg
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Surprised no one asked the question: what's the motivation for Canada to cap pension contributions to $24k/year?
Pension contributions reduce taxable income in the year they are made, and payments (withdrawals) are taxed in the year retirees get them. So in essence a pension contribution (a) defers taxes on the part of your income that you put aside for your old days, and (b) therefore lets you invest using pre-tax money.

The greater the contribution, the greater the deferred taxes, and the greater the "pre-tax investment" advantage. Wealthier people (e.g. including NHL players) can afford to make greater contributions so they benefit the most from those rules. Canada caps pension contributions to limit that benefit for wealthier people.

edit: What Darche leaves out is that to get to $1 million, the guy on a US team needs to contribute more to his pension than his Canadian team counterpart. So it's not really $1 million vs. $375k, more like $1 million vs. ($375k + whatever the Canadian team guy was able to do with the reduced contributions). $1 million is still going to be bigger but it's not quite the margin Darche alluded to.

barneyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 02:07 PM
  #16
sunnyvale420
Registered User
 
sunnyvale420's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 592
vCash: 500
Should you qualify for ANY sort of pension if you have made over 10 million dollars in your working career? This goes for business owners, joe blow employee, sports athletes, government...

sunnyvale420 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 04:11 PM
  #17
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,583
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
They can start drawing pension-- a guaranteed amount-- at age 45. Guaranteed and administered by the union......
The NHL Pension Plans (there are separate plans for players on US and Canadian teams) are no longer defined benefits plans (and haven't been since 1986) - they are defined contribution plans.

The League and the NHLPA make annual contributions to individual fully vested retirement accounts for each player - the amount (and currency) is based on whether a player as > 160 games credited. The player may then choose how the funds are invested - the available investment fund options are defined by the Plan Trustees.

kdb209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 04:46 PM
  #18
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by epo View Post
That's what they are doing in the first place.

So then Darche's comment is based on a situation where a player doesn't put the remaining money in RRSPs? He said you get back 13k and if you're smart you invest it but if they have RRSP accounts, the transfer could go straight to their accounts and that isn't taxable until you withdraw money out of it. Also, it might be an issue for players who make around league minimum because I think an RRSP contribution can't be more than 18% of your annual income.

Ari91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 06:21 PM
  #19
veganhunter
Mexico City Coyotes!
 
veganhunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,918
vCash: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
what does that have to do with anything?



No kidding. I find the obsession with the "lowest common denominator" around here incredibly obnoxious. How many posts have I see of people whining "last year my boss told me and the other cashiers at the campus photocopying store that we had to take a pay cut so i agreed because it was better than getting fired and it's so unfair that the players get paid a lot of money in bad economic times, that's not the way business works!!1!!1"
I don't disagree with this in theory but the NHLPA insist on making ridiculous comparison to themselves and the common working man. I think a lot of these comparison are borne out of that. I mean you can't have it both ways.

veganhunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 03:57 PM
  #20
barneyg
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
So then Darche's comment is based on a situation where a player doesn't put the remaining money in RRSPs? He said you get back 13k and if you're smart you invest it but if they have RRSP accounts, the transfer could go straight to their accounts and that isn't taxable until you withdraw money out of it. Also, it might be an issue for players who make around league minimum because I think an RRSP contribution can't be more than 18% of your annual income.
The 18% rule only applies if you make less than ~$130,000/year. If you make more than that, the cap is fixed at ~$24,000 (18% of $130k).

The $24,000 pension contribution IS already dumped into the player's RRSP -- Darche can't put anything else in it. So he has to pay taxes on the additional cheque he gets. Then he can put a small part of it into a TFSA ($5k/year) but if he invests the rest, if will be in a non-registered account and he will therefore have to pay taxes on interest/dividends/capital gains every year after that.

barneyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 05:20 PM
  #21
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Players on Canadian teams dinged on pension

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...656/story.html

The NHL pension plan is funded and administered jointly by the league and the players’ association. For the first 160 games of a player’s career, he gets $24,000 a season in his pension fund, regardless of where he plays. But things get more complicated after a player has logged the equivalent of two full seasons in the NHL.

The annual payments jump to about $50,000 a year — the actual amount varies depending on exchange rates — but Canadian tax laws cap pension contributions at $24,000. A Canadian player gets $24,000 dumped into his pension account and receives a cheque for the remaining amount — after the tax man takes his cut.

Darche added that the NHLPA is lobbying the federal government for an exemption that would allow more money to be placed into the pension fund.

“The difference is huge,” Darche said. “A player who plays 15 seasons with a U.S. team will have about $1 million in his pension account, while a player with a Canadian team would have $375,000.”
Hockey players are certainly not the only people who are subject to this rule. Why would they deserve an exemption that others would not receive. They are already much more likely to have a secure future than others for whom this rule applies? I can see the arguement that their earning years are limited, but this is about it. Politically, this would be a very dicey move.


Last edited by Fourier: 11-30-2012 at 05:27 PM.
Fourier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 05:26 PM
  #22
Noob616
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,396
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Surprised no one asked the question: what's the motivation for Canada to cap pension contributions to $24k/year?
Because we hate rich people.

Noob616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 05:27 PM
  #23
Silver
Registered User
 
Silver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Posts: 5,063
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Hockey players are certainly not the only people who are subject to this rule. Why would they deserve an exemption that others would not receive. They are already much more likely to have a secure future than others for whom this rule applies?
A lot of those same guys getting dinged on the pension do better in other ways by being in Canada. I don't see Corey Perry in ads for Wells Fargo like Iggy does for Scotiabank.

Maybe they should equalize that out as well?

Silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:46 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.