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10-30-2012, 10:52 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
About Kessel in the playoffs: My theory wasn't limited to him alone. Last year, skill was taken out of the game. Look at the teams that had advanced, and the ones that bowed out: CHI, DET, VAN in the west alone. The Dead Puck era was in full resurgence. With that type of environment, any skill player is going to have a much harder time getting anything done in the post season.
The Sedins both went PPG. Henrik was by far our best player on the ice not in net for the LA series. I'm not buying it.

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10-30-2012, 10:52 PM
  #352
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Phew. I am glad Sorcratic told you the stuff you did about that list he gave and you believed him.

Last year Kulemin scored 7 goals in 70 games. Thats about a 10 goal pace on 82 games. The year before last he scored 30. Why the drop you ask? Simple, Kulemin had 2 very close friends die in that plane crash. We in Leaf land all know that. If you check his stats, he has improved every year that he has been in the league. And he is a top 6 rugged forward that is amazing defensively. And by the way, you don't have one player that can compete with his speed. He beat Kessel in the fastest skater comp.

Tyler Biggs has top 9 potential, and he is big and mean.

The first most want is in a deep draft. Everyone knows this....including Burke.

Who knows about the second.

That is a major overpayment from Burke nothing close will be offered to that. Do some homework people.

So I am glad you do not want this deal. It aint happening anyway.
Simple last year he scored at a .40 PtsPG clip, the year before that .70 PtsPG, the year before that .46 PtsPG and before that .42 PtsPG, it seems simple to me that he didn't suffer a step backwards but had a 1 time career year. Oh and you might want to do some homework and think about Ballard and Raymond when talking about speed and btw Raymond matches up almost exactly with Kulemin in career stats, is amazing defensively, has played center and played on all 3 top lines and we can't wait to get rid of him.

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10-30-2012, 10:58 PM
  #353
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[QUOTE=JayBeautiful;55412369]Simple last year he scored at a .40 PtsPG clip, the year before that .70 PtsPG, the year before that .46 PtsPG and before that .42 PtsPG, it seems simple to me that he didn't suffer a step backwards but had a 1 time career year. Oh and you might want to do some homework and think about Ballard and Raymond when talking about speed and btw Raymond matches up almost exactly with Kulemin in career stats, is amazing defensively, has played center and played on all 3 top lines and we can't wait to get rid of him.[/QUOTE]

Why is that?

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10-30-2012, 11:04 PM
  #354
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The Sedins both went PPG. Henrik was by far our best player on the ice not in net for the LA series. I'm not buying it.

You don't have to buy it. I'm not selling it. This stuff sells itself. Henrik was the best, but failed to produce the necessary offense. The whole team did. Not only that, but neither did CHI or DET, also noted skilled teams.


Size and collapsing Ds ruled the ice. Not skill.

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10-30-2012, 11:12 PM
  #355
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You don't have to buy it. I'm not selling it. This stuff sells itself. Henrik was the best, but failed to produce the necessary offense. The whole team did. Not only that, but neither did CHI or DET, also noted skilled teams.


Size and collapsing Ds ruled the ice. Not skill.


I don't know about you, but I don't expect any player to get more than PPG in the playoffs except maybe Crosby/Malkin. Faulting the Sedins when they produced as they should just because the rest of the team-who aren't as skilled as them-didn't produce/played badly hardly means skill is essential to win games. Especially for the PP. Sedin-Sedin-Kessel on the PP would make teams that play "rough" and take a stupid penalty think twice about it next time.

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10-30-2012, 11:12 PM
  #356
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Gotcha. Sorry about that.

I don't agree with the skilled guys being taken out. Maybe that happened on your team, but you can go to the top 4 teams and see their skilled guys reined supreme. Plus, it depends on the skilled guy we are talking about . Kessel is one determined SOB. And, contrary to what most people think here, his D play is coming along nicely. He is often first back because of his speed now.


The skill got taken out for DET, CHI and SJS. The west was merciless. All the big teams that collapse to the net advanced. It wasn't just the Canucks.



In the east, the most skilled teams never made it past the 2nd round. WSH bowed out to NYR, and PHI lost to NJ. Defense, size, and goaltending put the clamp down on the NHL last year.

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10-30-2012, 11:20 PM
  #357
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I don't know about you, but I don't expect any player to get more than PPG in the playoffs except maybe Crosby/Malkin. Faulting the Sedins when they produced as they should just because the rest of the team-who aren't as skilled as them-didn't produce/played badly hardly means skill is essential to win games. Especially for the PP. Sedin-Sedin-Kessel on the PP would make teams that play "rough" and take a stupid penalty think twice about it next time.


The Canucks are a skilled team. Even the players beyond the twins. They also played a skilled game. As in, quick transition and passing, instead of trying to grind the games out. Last year's playoffs played directly against that, and more of the purely skilled teams bowed out early.



In the match-up vs LA, one would have expected VAN's superior skill to shine through, it didn't happen. LA's cycle game didn't skip a beat though. In fact, that style is favoured in the playoffs. So the gap became razor thin and D.Sedins injury + AV's incompetence sealed the deal.

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10-30-2012, 11:20 PM
  #358
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The skill got taken out for DET, CHI and SJS. The west was merciless. All the big teams that collapse to the net advanced. It wasn't just the Canucks.



In the east, the most skilled teams never made it past the 2nd round. WSH bowed out to NYR, and PHI lost to NJ. Defense, size, and goaltending put the clamp down on the NHL last year.

Phoenix is a perfect example of this too. Collapse, clear rebounds, block shots, get timely scoring. They must clamp down on interference again—it is so much more entertaining with the clutch and grab out of the game.

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10-30-2012, 11:27 PM
  #359
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Wow, some of you guys just don't know what you are talking about. Yes, your twins got shut down, but Kessel is a proven playoff performer with 15 points on 9 goals in 15 games.

Its just fun to read some of this stuff.
15 games and hes a proven playoff performer? As been mentioned before the Sedins scored 22 points in their first 24 playoff games. After they started getting matched up against the opposing teams top defensive units their totals started to get lower. The exact same thing will happen with Kessel now that he is playing on the first line.

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10-30-2012, 11:30 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The Canucks are a skilled team. Even the players beyond the twins. They also played a skilled game. As in, quick transition and passing, instead of trying to grind the games out. Last year's playoffs played directly against that, and more of the purely skilled teams bowed out early.



In the match-up vs LA, one would have expected VAN's superior skill to shine through, it didn't happen. LA's cycle game didn't skip a beat though. In fact, that style is favoured in the playoffs. So the gap became razor thin and D.Sedins injury + AV's incompetence sealed the deal.
LA is a good team and all, but both teams healthy I like the Canucks chances of beating them in a 7-game series.

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10-30-2012, 11:33 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Back in 94 View Post
15 games and hes a proven playoff performer? As been mentioned before the Sedins scored 22 points in their first 24 playoff games. After they started getting matched up against the opposing teams top defensive units their totals started to get lower. The exact same thing will happen with Kessel now that he is playing on the first line.
That's for two players though, so really they each had 11 points in their first 24 playoff games. Actually, Daniel had 10 and Henrik 12. Daniel and Henrik have, under Gillis' reign had at least 10 points each playoff until the last one. So there goes that argument.

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10-30-2012, 11:37 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
That's for two players though, so really they each had 11 points in their first 24 playoff games. Actually, Daniel had 10 and Henrik 12. Daniel and Henrik have, under Gillis' reign had at least 10 points each playoff until the last one. So there goes that argument.
Ouch, didn't read the post properly. I think the argument is still relevant. Do you think Kessel can maintain a PPG pace in the playoffs playing on the first line for the Leafs?

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10-30-2012, 11:42 PM
  #363
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LA is a good team and all, but both teams healthy I like the Canucks chances of beating them in a 7-game series.

I do too, but then I am reminded that the game has gotten progressively "slower" in the post season. This past playoffs was the worst example. Skating and skill were all but negated by the cycle and obstruction/interference. And lastly, the Canucks don't collapse to the net, so that immediately puts them at a comparative disadvantage. Tought sledding if you want to bank on skill alone.

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10-30-2012, 11:42 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You don't have to buy it. I'm not selling it. This stuff sells itself. Henrik was the best, but failed to produce the necessary offense. The whole team did. Not only that, but neither did CHI or DET, also noted skilled teams.


Size and collapsing Ds ruled the ice. Not skill.
This was mostly in the West. It's not as if these teams ruled the playoffs, there were just so many of them in there. Phoenix, St Louis, LA, and Nashville were all in there where as the quality of skill teams didnt exist this year. If a team like the Canucks of 10/11 were in the mix, we may be singing a different tune. I do agree last post season was dominated by defensive teams, but I also think these teams could have been beat by skill. Give us Daniel in that series vs the Kings and I bet ya we take em to 7.

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10-30-2012, 11:42 PM
  #365
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Ouch, that completely flew over my head. I think the argument is still relevant. Do you think Kessel can maintain a PPG pace in the playoffs playing on the first line for the Leafs?
Yeah the argument I still find relevant. I think Kessel would be a PPG player in the playoffs for the Leafs because they don't really have any strong scoring threats besides him Lupul or Grabovski. It's possible he doesn't depending on who they are facing, but I think he could.

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10-30-2012, 11:47 PM
  #366
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I do too, but then I am reminded that the game has gotten progressively "slower" in the post season. This past playoffs was the worst example. Skating and skill were all but negated by the cycle and obstruction/interference. And lastly, the Canucks don't collapse to the net, so that immediately puts them at a comparative disadvantage. Tought sledding if you want to bank on skill alone.
The past playoffs was more of an aberration if you ask me. How often do you see a 6th seed face an 8th seed team for the Cup? Then there is the Pens-Flyers series where Pens were outmatched but took a chunk out of the Flyers for the next round. There is a tired Bruins team out in 7. Another two really playoff tested and tired teams in the Sharks and Red Wings. Blackhawks laid an egg, Blues had a bad matchup against LA. It really was the perfect storm in my opinion.

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10-30-2012, 11:52 PM
  #367
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Yeah the argument I still find relevant. I think Kessel would be a PPG player in the playoffs for the Leafs because they don't really have any strong scoring threats besides him Lupul or Grabovski. It's possible he doesn't depending on who they are facing, but I think he could.
Realistically IF the leafs make the playoffs this year they'd finish no higher than 7th, and the top two teams in the East this year will probably be the Bruins and Rangers. I just can't see him putting up a PPG against those two teams in a best of 7 series.

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10-31-2012, 12:00 AM
  #368
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Realistically IF the leafs make the playoffs this year they'd finish no higher than 7th, and the top two teams in the East this year will probably be the Bruins and Rangers. I just can't see him putting up a PPG against those two teams in a best of 7 series.
Rangers, maybe. Bruins, no.

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10-31-2012, 12:02 AM
  #369
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The past playoffs was more of an aberration if you ask me. How often do you see a 6th seed face an 8th seed team for the Cup? Then there is the Pens-Flyers series where Pens were outmatched but took a chunk out of the Flyers for the next round. There is a tired Bruins team out in 7. Another two really playoff tested and tired teams in the Sharks and Red Wings. Blackhawks laid an egg, Blues had a bad matchup against LA. It really was the perfect storm in my opinion.

Could be. I'm thinking it's just part of the cycle. That eventually the league will get so fed up with an obstruction laden playoffs that they will clamp down and open things up for the skilled teams again. After a few years of that, the league will progressively loosen the reigns on obstruction until we are back to another dead puck era. And then on we go correcting it again.


The Canucks need to target players that work in both paradigms, not just the one where skill is favoured.

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10-31-2012, 12:03 AM
  #370
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Realistically IF the leafs make the playoffs this year they'd finish no higher than 7th, and the top two teams in the East this year will probably be the Bruins and Rangers. I just can't see him putting up a PPG against those two teams in a best of 7 series.
Actually, Kessel is that good and coming into his own that a lot of us think he be more than a PPG player. People go on about his sniping abilities, but he has hands of silk when it comes to his passing game.

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10-31-2012, 12:04 AM
  #371
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Could be. I'm thinking it's just part of the cycle. That eventually the league will get so fed up with an obstruction laden playoffs that they will clamp down and open things up for the skilled teams again. After a few years of that, the league will progressively loosen the reigns on obstruction until we are back to another dead puck era. And then on we go correcting it again.


The Canucks need to target players that work in both paradigms, not just the one where skill is favoured.
I thought Kassian was a huge step in the direction as is Jensen.

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10-31-2012, 12:07 AM
  #372
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Could be. I'm thinking it's just part of the cycle. That eventually the league will get so fed up with an obstruction laden playoffs that they will clamp down and open things up for the skilled teams again. After a few years of that, the league will progressively loosen the reigns on obstruction until we are back to another dead puck era. And then on we go correcting it again.


The Canucks need to target players that work in both paradigms, not just the one where skill is favoured.
Hey Bleach....Playoff scoring is up .3 goals per game this year over any season in the past 10 years.

Its not a huge increase, but its an increase none the less. So, teams are in fact, scoring more in the playoffs. So that kinda puts a damper on your obstruction theory. But, I will say this, I will agree with you on that point when certain teams are playing a trap system other teams are playing an obstruction system. In Basketball they call it a pick.

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10-31-2012, 12:13 AM
  #373
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Actually, Kessel is that good and coming into his own that a lot of us think he be more than a PPG player. People go on about his sniping abilities, but he has hands of silk when it comes to his passing game.
More than a PPG in the playoffs? I'll be glad if he proves me wrong because I actually like the guy but I just can't see it.

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10-31-2012, 12:17 AM
  #374
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Sorry no way. Schneider is going to be a Vezina trophy winner, doubtful Kessel ever wins anything. Jensen and Kassian give the Canucks everything they have been looking for in just a couple of years. A big tough body, and big talented winger. Gaunce is a flier, but could easily end up being a Kessel light, and is probably better than either Bozak or Finn in the long run. Finn - 35th overall .... doesn't project as high as Jensen, Kassian or Gaunce in my eyes. Bozak is what, 26 or something, and his last 3 seasons projected over an 82 game year is something like 17, 15 & 20 goals. This is a horrible trade. If the Canucks were gong to trade Schneider, he should have been the key piece in landing Rick Nash.
It's a reasonable deal but with the way things are going this is a year long lockout and that means Kessel is just a 1 year rental (2013-14). Not sure I'd give up Schneider+ for 1 year of Kessel.

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10-31-2012, 12:24 AM
  #375
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Rangers, maybe. Bruins, no.
Penguins IMHO. The finished as well as any team and nearly won east and the PT without Crosby for 75% of it. They romp home with the East and the PT with Crosby for a whole season.

Quote:
Blues had a bad matchup against LA
Their system were similar enough and cancelled out any systems advantage and the Hitchcock effect got taken out out the equation. It came down to which team had more talent and the Blues got exposed.


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