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Luongo Thread - Waiting on the World to Change (Mod Warning in OP)

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11-01-2012, 02:57 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's impossible to get a deal done that satisfies everyone. On the Leafs board I heard someone say they wouldn't trade Reimer straight up for Luongo. Middle ground can be found, but not with everyone.
If It was me, as you know, I get it done with Finn. But Burke wont.

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11-01-2012, 02:59 PM
  #477
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Ok, what are your major needs? Keeping in mind Lou is a 5.3 mil cap hit and his contract goes for another 10 years. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to get a good return for him.

SS, I think this is the issue: Some fans, including myself, view Luongo's contract as _excellent_, while others like yourself view it as terrible. It's no wonder we are diametrically opposed in our view of his worth.


You might want to take a look at an earlier exchange we had with BuddhaSmoka1 in this thread, or early in the Lu thread on the Trades board, to understand where we are coming from. All it can do is help everyone get caught up on the perception of Lu's contract on _both_ sides of the fence.

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11-01-2012, 03:00 PM
  #478
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Here is a fact for you that has nothing to do with a trade. if MG does not stock his shelves, the Canucks will AGE out. Then you will be at the bottom again trying to claw your way back up.
We went through it, Now Monteal is about to go through it. You have not drafted well. there simply is not much there.

I am offering a couple top prospects in Holzer and McKegg. If you think they are "Plugs" then we have nothing else to talk about.
I think part of the issue is that you are taking what I would consider to be mid level prospects like Colborne and Finn out of the discussions right off the bat. I think the majority of us know that we aren't getting Rielly and Gardiner and we understand that but essentially you're offering up a bunch of third and fourth liners and your third level prospects. It's like us telling you we want one of your key assets but you have to take Lack, Jensen, and Tanev right out of the discussion. You can have your choice between Malhotra, Raymond, Schroeder, Sauve etc. A trade needs to address both sides needs.

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11-01-2012, 03:03 PM
  #479
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SS, I think this is the issue: Some fans, including myself, view Luongo's contract as _excellent_, while others like yourself view it as terrible. It's not wonder we are diametrically opposed in our view of his worth.


You might want to take a look at an earlier exchange we had with BuddhaSmoka1 in this thread, or early in the Lu thread on the Trades board, to understand where we are coming from. All it can do is help everyone get caught up on the perception of Lu's contract on _both_ sides of the fence.
Sure, I agree. its not a big issue with me. I just like talking with some of you guys. Its fun to speculate.

I can see your point. I really can. But, you have to see my point also. Burke has a few guys he will not trade.

I actually do believe something has been done in principle. We will have to wait until this thing is resolved (CBA)to see what the deal actually is. If I know Burke, and I believe I do, then many canuck fans are going to be very very pissed at MG.

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11-01-2012, 03:05 PM
  #480
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I do agree with I in the Eye though that _any_ team, not just TO, will have to return a 1st in the deal. No way around it.


If you can get a mid-first from FLA, and some middling assets, you do that over taking middling assets from somewhere else without any 1st, or even a swap of 1sts. It's just common sense at that point.

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11-01-2012, 03:08 PM
  #481
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I think part of the issue is that you are taking what I would consider to be mid level prospects like Colborne and Finn out of the discussions right off the bat. I think the majority of us know that we aren't getting Rielly and Gardiner and we understand that but essentially you're offering up a bunch of third and fourth liners and your third level prospects. It's like us telling you we want one of your key assets but you have to take Lack, Jensen, and Tanev right out of the discussion. You can have your choice between Malhotra, Raymond, Schroeder, Sauve etc. A trade needs to address both sides needs.
I get that. But also we value prospects differently. I see them daily and you guys just hear names. make judgements based on what other posters have said.

Plus, its not top 6 guys you need right?

I wonder how any of you will think Burke will strip our team down for a tender? We are not rebuilding anymore, be are nearly there. Second youngest team in the league. Until that colapse, we were in a comfortable 6th place.

I know that the vancouver cupboards are bare. I think you as fans need to be concerned about your future. Lou is also a major issue. With the extra 5.3 freed up you can sign a very good FA.

Our prospects are not all 3 and 4th liners.

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11-01-2012, 03:12 PM
  #482
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I do agree with I in the Eye though that _any_ team, not just TO, will have to return a 1st in the deal. No way around it.


If you can get a mid-first from FLA, and some middling assets, you do that over taking middling assets from somewhere else without any 1st, or even a swap of 1sts. It's just common sense at that point.
Again, several of us including some of your fans proved beyond a shadow of doubt Florida wont be getting Lou. They have too much money tied up in players that are tied in for a few years. They could afford him this year, but not next or any after that.

The cap is 70 mil and change. Florida has never spent more than 51 mil. Probably a self imposed cap from the owners. They are nearly at that amount already. Next year, no chance unless they get rid of a guy named Campbell.

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11-01-2012, 03:15 PM
  #483
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I get that. But also we value prospects differently. I see them daily and you guys just hear names. make judgements based on what other posters have said.

Plus, its not top 6 guys you need right?

I wonder how any of you will think Burke will strip our team down for a tender? We are not rebuilding anymore, be are nearly there. Second youngest team in the league. Until that colapse, we were in a comfortable 6th place.

I know that the vancouver cupboards are bare. I think you as fans need to be concerned about your future. Lou is also a major issue. With the extra 5.3 freed up you can sign a very good FA.

Our prospects are not all 3 and 4th liners.
I know that but I was referring to the roster players you are offering not your prospects. If Burke wants to say that Rielly and Gardiner are off limits I understand that. But if he's also saying that the next level down ie Colborne and Finn are off limits then I hope that Gillis either demands the first round pick or walks away. It seems to me that you are trying to get a very good goalie without giving up any real significant assets. I think that you exaggerate Toronto's prospect depth if you think the third level guys (like Holzer, McKegg) will help the Canucks. They'd be a very modest upgrade to a prospect pool that already has lots of third tier guys. We need quality not quantity.

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11-01-2012, 03:17 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Sam Slick View Post
Sure, I agree. its not a big issue with me. I just like talking with some of you guys. Its fun to speculate.

I can see your point. I really can. But, you have to see my point also. Burke has a few guys he will not trade.

Understood. I think Gardiner isn't going anywhere. That much seems quite obvious. The trick is, if Burke moves to protect Gardiner, he must loosen his grip on others, otherwise he's got nothing of real interest to offer... Then FLA with a middling package looks more appealing... At least they are more apt to include their 1st.


Protect the best asset, that is the TO viewpoint. Some VAN fans are OK with that, but then you will have to loosen your grip on others.


Quote:
I actually do believe something has been done in principle. We will have to wait until this thing is resolved (CBA)to see what the deal actually is. If I know Burke, and I believe I do, then many canuck fans are going to be very very pissed at MG.



We know Burke as well... Lest you forget. MG also, is a strong trader. The fact that this has dragged out this long speaks to that. If Lu could be had for a song, he would have been gone already.


Some of us just expect a 1st and a _good_ prospect. So I know I won't be disappointed if we at least get that much back. Not every Canuck fan's expectation can be coloured with the same brush.


Lastly, I think Gillis has price points from every GM on Lu, not just TO. At the very least, he knows what the top 5 teams are willing to give up in principle. When the CBA is ratified, we'll know in a hurry who won out. Or, if Lu is kept, we'll know that the best price wasn't enough for MG to move him. A wait and see...

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11-01-2012, 03:18 PM
  #485
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Again, several of us including some of your fans proved beyond a shadow of doubt Florida wont be getting Lou. They have too much money tied up in players that are tied in for a few years. They could afford him this year, but not next or any after that.

The cap is 70 mil and change. Florida has never spent more than 51 mil. Probably a self imposed cap from the owners. They are nearly at that amount already. Next year, no chance unless they get rid of a guy named Campbell.
There were reports out of Florida that Tallon obtained permission from ownership to take on Luongo's contract. The issue with Florida is that they likely won't be willing to give up as much as their current goaltending performed much better than the Leafs.
Burke has no real other options and you had better believe that Gillis knows this. I've said it may times that Burke can simply not afford to run one more year with his current goalies.


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11-01-2012, 03:21 PM
  #486
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[QUOTE=Bleach Clean;55444257]Understood. I think Gardiner isn't going anywhere. That much seems quite obvious. The trick is, if Burke moves to protect Gardiner, he must loosen his grip on others, otherwise he's got nothing of real interest to offer... Then FLA with a middling package looks more appealing... At least they are more apt to include their 1st.


Protect the best asset, that is the TO viewpoint. Some VAN fans are OK with that, but then you will have to loosen your grip on others.







We know Burke as well... Lest you forget. MG also, is a strong trader. The fact that this has dragged out this long speaks to that. If Lu could be had for a song, he would have been gone already.


Some of us just expect a 1st and a _good_ prospect. So I know I won't be disappointed if we at least get that much back. Not every Canuck fan's expectation can be coloured with the same brush.


Lastly, I think Gillis has price points from every GM on Lu, not just TO. At the very least, he knows what the top 5 teams are willing to give up in principle. When the CBA is ratified, we'll know in a hurry who won out. Or, if Lu is kept, we'll know that the best price wasn't enough for MG to move him. A wait and see...[/QUOTE]

Agreed

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11-01-2012, 03:26 PM
  #487
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Ok, so what player do you think MG starts with or no deal will work?
We're likely losing big in any Luongo deal, we need one piece back that gives us a chance to salvage the deal. Prospects that top out as 4th defensemen or 2nd liners don't do it. We need your 1st or a high end prospect. I said I would accept Bozak/Frattin/1st, that's a bare minimum for me.

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He can only give us maybe 4 or 5 years.
You act like that's no big deal. If it was that easy to get good goaltending you wouldn't have been waiting since Belfour left.

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11-01-2012, 03:33 PM
  #488
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With Luongo on their team, sadly their 1st round pick will be much lower.

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11-01-2012, 03:37 PM
  #489
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Loving it when others run on about Lou's contract. It could be worse, we could still have Burke at the helm.
http://thehockeywriters.com/toronto-...yer-contracts/

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11-01-2012, 03:46 PM
  #490
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Here is a fact for you that has nothing to do with a trade. if MG does not stock his shelves, the Canucks will AGE out. Then you will be at the bottom again trying to claw your way back up.
We went through it, Now Monteal is about to go through it. You have not drafted well. there simply is not much there.

I am offering a couple top prospects in Holzer and McKegg. If you think they are "Plugs" then we have nothing else to talk about.
Holzer and McKegg are not top prospects

The Canucks have several good prospects: Jensen, Kassian, Schroeder, Gaunce, Connauton, Corrado, McNally, Lack, Cannata that we won't just "age out" like you say.

Toronto hasn't drafted well either. It's like crap telling puke it smells bad.

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11-01-2012, 03:52 PM
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Holzer and McKegg are not top prospects

The Canucks have several good prospects: Jensen, Kassian, Schroeder, Gaunce, Connauton, Corrado, McNally, Lack, Cannata that we won't just "age out" like you say. Toronto hasn't drafted well either. It's like crap telling puke it smells bad.
The problem with Montreal and Toronto aren't so much related to aging out but more to a series of incompetent GM's who kept the team in either just above or just below 8th place every year and failed to attract any free agents while at the same time trading youth. The Canucks will likely eventually see a drop off when the Sedins retire but what Gillis has successfully done is made Vancouver a destination which free agents at least put on the short list of places they'd like to play. That goes a long way in filling holes as key players retire although you can't replace players like the Sedins easily. Add to that a solid goaltending base and a solid defence none of which are that old and you have a solid base to build on that should prevent Vancouver from becoming another Toronto or Montreal.

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11-01-2012, 03:56 PM
  #492
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The problem with Montreal and Toronto aren't so much related to aging out but more to a series of incompetent GM's who kept the team in either just above or just below 8th place every year and failed to attract any free agents while at the same time trading youth. The Canucks will likely eventually see a drop off when the Sedins retire but what Gillis has successfully done is made Vancouver a destination which free agents at least put on the short list of places they'd like to play. That goes a long way in filling holes as key players retire although you can't replace players like the Sedins easily. Add to that a solid goaltending base and a solid defence none of which are that old and you have a solid base to build on that should prevent Vancouver from becoming another Toronto or Montreal.
Exactly.

When the Sedins go, we'll have $12.2M in cap space. We can use $7.5M of that to sign a marquee player, and use the remaining $4.7M of that for another important top 6 piece. As long as Jensen and Kassian develop like we think they will, along with Kesler staying healthy, we'll still have a pretty good forward group.

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11-01-2012, 04:42 PM
  #493
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Exactly.

When the Sedins go, we'll have $12.2M in cap space. We can use $7.5M of that to sign a marquee player, and use the remaining $4.7M of that for another important top 6 piece. As long as Jensen and Kassian develop like we think they will, along with Kesler staying healthy, we'll still have a pretty good forward group.
Who knows who else we gain or lose before the Sedins retire, maybe we will still be barely under the cap the next season or maybe we will have tonnes of room because maybe guys like Bieksa, Kesler or Hamhuis won't be with us anymore. There will be a lot more factors into our cap hit other than just the Sedins retiring at that time.

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11-01-2012, 04:43 PM
  #494
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Who knows who else we gain or lose before the Sedins retire, maybe we will still be barely under the cap the next season or maybe we will have tonnes of room because maybe guys like Bieksa, Kesler or Hamhuis won't be with us anymore. There will be a lot more factors into our cap hit other than just the Sedins retiring at that time.
His plan is to ditch them when their contracts are up, so those guys would still be around.

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11-01-2012, 04:54 PM
  #495
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His plan is to ditch them when their contracts are up, so those guys would still be around.
You can't "ditch" the Sedins, they're ageless wonders, I can guarantee it. They're style of play won't take any effect with age. They don't play a reckless or over-the-top style of play, I feel they can continue to contribute until they retire.

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11-01-2012, 04:58 PM
  #496
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You can't "ditch" the Sedins, they're ageless wonders, I can guarantee it. They're style of play won't take any effect with age. They don't play a reckless or over-the-top style of play, I feel they can continue to contribute until they retire.
We'll see how they do in the two seasons (if this season does happen) before their contracts are up. If they continue slumping and continue their inconsistent play in the playoffs, we would be better off spending that $12.2M elsewhere.

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11-01-2012, 05:00 PM
  #497
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You can't "ditch" the Sedins, they're ageless wonders, I can guarantee it. They're style of play won't take any effect with age. They don't play a reckless or over-the-top style of play, I feel they can continue to contribute until they retire.
True. As a long time Canuck's fan I think that the Sedins are the type of players that many won't truly appreciate until they are gone. Their plays are often subtle but some of the things they do with the puck are simply amazing and won't likely be seen again. I'd keep them around as long as possible. I'd also like to see them step their play up more in the playoffs and hopefully as well we'll be able to get them a bit of help offensively so that teams can't just focus on them. .


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11-01-2012, 05:02 PM
  #498
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We'll see how they do in the two seasons (if this season does happen) before their contracts are up. If they continue slumping and continue their inconsistent play in the playoffs, we would be better off spending that $12.2M elsewhere.
Those are both simply opinions. I don't see how basically getting a PPG in the regular season is "slumping" and if you're reffering to the LA series as "inconsistent", Daniel missed over half the series and Henrik was basically on his own. 2011 run, The Sedin's played well up until the Finals, but honestly; who played consistently well in the Cup Finals?

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11-01-2012, 05:06 PM
  #499
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Those are both simply opinions. I don't see how basically getting a PPG in the regular season is "slumping" and if you're reffering to the LA series as "inconsistent", Daniel missed over half the series and Henrik was basically on his own. 2011 run, The Sedin's played well up until the Finals, but honestly; who played consistently well in the Cup Finals?
Take the Sedins away and we're the Toronto Maple Leafs. That cap space would get us a Tim Connolly and David Booth...

The Sedins stick around as long as they're still winning their head to head matchups. Whether that's on the 1st line, 2nd or 3rd. Walking away from them when they're still quality top 6 forwards would be a disaster in the making. Gillis won't be that foolish.

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11-01-2012, 05:09 PM
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I want to see the Sedins retire in Canuck colours, I can't see it any other way.

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