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11-05-2012, 02:37 PM
  #776
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
He's a great defensive player even when he doesn't win the Selke. When he scores 21-26 goals he isn't a 40 goal scorer.



Exactly. This isn't about getting Kesler as many goals as possible, it's about the team scoring as many as possible. Few players can do heavy lifting and contribute offensively, we need to take advantage of that. I'm having a hard time understanding your position, you just endorsed a move to bring Gagner in as our third line centre. That's the kind of move I'm talking about, though I'd rather it be someone not quite as soft. You realize Kesler would be doing a lot of defensive work with Gagner as our third line centre rather than Pahlsson, Lapierre or Manny, right?
Gagner wouldn't be the best fit for the third line C, but if we went with:

Sedins-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Kassian/Hemsky
Higgins-Gagner-Hansen
Raymond-Lapierre-Malhotra/Kassian

We'd have three solid scoring lines all of whom are reasonably good defensively. Gagner will be flanked by Higgins and Hansen, and it's not like he's terrible defensively anyways.

We'd be a nightmare to match up against, and would provide enough defense with each line to work well enough with our goaltending to see us through.

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11-05-2012, 03:05 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
What do you except for Luongo? If you don't mind me asking.
I'd rather wait to find out what the new CBA is like before naming value.

If we are going to get an injury prone player back in a Luongo trade I'd rather trade for Lupul, at least that way Luongo is out of the conference.

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11-05-2012, 03:18 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We'd have three solid scoring lines all of whom are reasonably good defensively. Gagner will be flanked by Higgins and Hansen, and it's not like he's terrible defensively anyways.
This is the thinking I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. To me, it makes sense to put the guys in roles that take advantage of their strengths. That means giving Gagner the offensive wingers and more offensive role and giving Kesler the defensive wingers and the more defensive role. I prefer

Sedins/Kassian
Higgins/Kesler/Burrows
Booth/Gagner/Hansen

or

Sedins/Burrows
Higgins/Kesler/Hansen
Booth/Gagner/Kassian

I really like defined roles on hockey teams, I think it's important. Those lines are a lot easier to put into positions to play to the players strengths imo.


Last edited by Scurr: 11-05-2012 at 03:25 PM.
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11-05-2012, 03:22 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
This is the thinking I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. To me, it makes sense to put the guys in roles that take advantage of their strengths. That means giving Gagner the offensive wingers and more offensive role and give Kesler the defensive wingers and the more defensive role. I prefer

Sedins/Kassian
Higgins/Kesler/Burrows
Booth/Gagner/Hansen

or

Sedins/Burrows
Higgins/Kesler/Hansen
Booth/Gagner/Kassian

I really like defined roles on hockey teams, I think it's important. Those lines are a lot easier to put into positions to play to the players strengths imo.
And so does our coach.

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11-05-2012, 03:24 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
This is the thinking I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. To me, it makes sense to put the guys in roles that take advantage of their strengths. That means giving Gagner the offensive wingers and more offensive role and give Kesler the defensive wingers and the more defensive role. I prefer

Sedins/Kassian
Higgins/Kesler/Burrows
Booth/Gagner/Hansen

or

Sedins/Burrows
Higgins/Kesler/Hansen
Booth/Gagner/Kassian

I really like defined roles on hockey teams, I think it's important. Those lines are a lot easier to put into positions to play to the players strengths imo.
This is exactly why we get shut down though. If we have "roles" for each line of our top-9, it becomes that much easier to match up against us with Chara-Seidenberg, etc. By dividing responsibilities we become that much harder to get shut down when it counts.

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11-05-2012, 03:28 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
I'd rather wait to find out what the new CBA is like before naming value.

If we are going to get an injury prone player back in a Luongo trade I'd rather trade for Lupul, at least that way Luongo is out of the conference.
I don't see the offense deprived Leafs would trade a player like Lupul? The only player who's actually meshed with Kessel. Honestly Hemsky is the only viable option who's an upgrade on are 2 nd line.

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11-05-2012, 03:34 PM
  #782
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
I don't see the offense deprived Leafs would trade a player like Lupul? The only player who's actually meshed with Kessel. Honestly Hemsky is the only viable option who's an upgrade on are 2 nd line.
The Leafs who were top 10 in G/G last Season are now offensively deprived?


Link? or just speculating off of what HF is saying?

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11-05-2012, 03:35 PM
  #783
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Honestly Hemsky is the only viable option who's an upgrade on are 2 nd line.
He's not really a viable option if he's in the infirmary. I haven't checked, but I would hazard to guess he's missed as many games due to injury since the lockout as Salo. Now if Hemsky came at a cost of $1.5 million (cap hit) like Salo was last season......

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11-05-2012, 03:39 PM
  #784
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
The Leafs who were top 10 in G/G last Season are now offensively deprived?


Link? or just speculating off of what HF is saying?
What I meant was without Lupul the Leafs would be offensively deprived, Lupul not only adda in his 70 points he also makes Kessel thrive. Yes just speculation, but if you disgaree I'd like to see you mention any viable players Luongo will garner.

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11-05-2012, 03:40 PM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
This is exactly why we get shut down though. If we have "roles" for each line of our top-9, it becomes that much easier to match up against us with Chara-Seidenberg, etc. By dividing responsibilities we become that much harder to get shut down when it counts.
With the 4th line we have, we're already taking a lot of defensive responsibility away from our top 3 lines. Where most teams have to shelter their 4th line, we give ours the toughest minutes on our team. That leaves a lot of opportunity for the other three lines, even if Kesler is playing the biggest defensive role of the three.

The 10/11 run wasn't with our team built this way. We had a 4th line we had to shelter or not play at all. That left a lot of heavy lifting for Kesler and Lapierre.

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11-05-2012, 03:44 PM
  #786
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
With the 4th line we have, we're already taking a lot of defensive responsibility away from our top 3 lines. Where most teams have to shelter their 4th line, we give ours the toughest minutes on our team. That leaves a lot of opportunity for the other three lines, even if Kesler is playing the biggest defensive role of the three.

The 10/11 run wasn't with our team built this way. We had a 4th line we had to shelter or not play at all. That left a lot of heavy lifting for Kesler and Lapierre.
The other teams aren't going to play their top pairings against our fourth line. They will be used against the greatest offensive threat. But I don't think any teams have the defensive depth to effectively counter 3 entire top-6 calibre lines.

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11-05-2012, 03:44 PM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
He's not really a viable option if he's in the infirmary. I haven't checked, but I would hazard to guess he's missed as many games due to injury since the lockout as Salo. Now if Hemsky came at a cost of $1.5 million (cap hit) like Salo was last season......
Bassed on skill level alone Hemsky is surely worth 5 million, I mean if worse comes to worse you dump Ballard for him. Maybe it's because I'm really high on him, but I feel like he could add a dynamic to are 2 nd line.

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11-05-2012, 03:46 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
He's not really a viable option if he's in the infirmary. I haven't checked, but I would hazard to guess he's missed as many games due to injury since the lockout as Salo. Now if Hemsky came at a cost of $1.5 million (cap hit) like Salo was last season......
I looked it up & Hemsky is on par with Lupul when it comes to game played & very similar to Salo.



Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
What I meant was without Lupul the Leafs would be offensively deprived, Lupul not only adda in his 70 points he also makes Kessel thrive. Yes just speculation, but if you disgaree I'd like to see you mention any viable players Luongo will garner.
Thats the difference between us then. I don't like to speculate on his value especially since there is no CBA in place. His value could go up or it could plummet & until then I see it as a waste of time to try & come up with a trade.

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11-05-2012, 03:50 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The other teams aren't going to play their top pairings against our fourth line.
That's the beauty of starting our 4th line there. Either the other team rarely gets their top pairing on the ice starting in the offensive zone or they're playing their top pairing against our 4th line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
They will be used against the greatest offensive threat. But I don't think any teams have the defensive depth to effectively counter 3 entire top-6 calibre lines.
This is exactly what I'm saying. Rather than saddle good offensive wingers (Higgins and Hansen last season) with a "checking" centre, we give Kes whatever the 4th line can't handle and have 3 lines that can score. Putting a line of Higgins/Gagner/Hansen together isn't ideal for starting in our own end when the 4th line can't or when we need a goal. Neither is Booth/Kesler/Kassian. Higgins/Kesler/Hansen is ideal though.


Last edited by Scurr: 11-05-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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11-05-2012, 04:01 PM
  #790
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
This is the thinking I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. To me, it makes sense to put the guys in roles that take advantage of their strengths. That means giving Gagner the offensive wingers and more offensive role and giving Kesler the defensive wingers and the more defensive role. I prefer

Sedins/Kassian
Higgins/Kesler/Burrows
Booth/Gagner/Hansen

or

Sedins/Burrows
Higgins/Kesler/Hansen
Booth/Gagner/Kassian

I really like defined roles on hockey teams, I think it's important. Those lines are a lot easier to put into positions to play to the players strengths imo.
The problem is that both of those 2nd lines are better offensive threats than the "offensive" 3rd lines are. If I needed a goal I'd send out Higgins/Kesler/Hansen or Higgins/Kesler/Burrows way before I sent out Booth/Gagner/Kassian.

Even if you completely ignore the defensive abilities of those 2nd lines, they're still the superior players. Those 3rd lines look to me like they'd be marginal at everything. Gagner puts up 40 points a year while playing 17:00 a night with guys like Hall and Hemsky; what's he going to do playing 13-14 min. a night with Booth and Kassian and much less PP time? He'd probably barely match Malhotra's 25-30 pts/82 game production.

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11-05-2012, 04:07 PM
  #791
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gagner and MPS are bad
just say no edmonton trash

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11-05-2012, 04:12 PM
  #792
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The problem is that both of those 2nd lines are better offensive threats than the "offensive" 3rd lines are. If I needed a goal I'd send out Higgins/Kesler/Hansen or Higgins/Kesler/Burrows way before I sent out Booth/Gagner/Kassian.

Even if you completely ignore the defensive abilities of those 2nd lines, they're still the superior players. Those 3rd lines look to me like they'd be marginal at everything. Gagner puts up 40 points a year while playing 17:00 a night with guys like Hall and Hemsky; what's he going to do playing 13-14 min. a night with Booth and Kassian and much less PP time? He'd probably barely match Malhotra's 25-30 pts/82 game production.
I'm not sold on Gagner but he's infinitely more talented than Malhotra and would make that line much more dangerous. It's not just that Manny only puts up 25-30, he really limits the potential of whoever he plays with and can't contribute at all on the PP. Same with Pahlsson and Lapierre.

I'm not sure I understand your other point. When Pahlsson was the 3rd line centre, would you rather have him out there at the end of the game protecting a lead than Kesler?

If the 4th line and Kesler's line are doing all the heavy lifting defensively, and the twins are eating up top defensive pairs and shutdown lines, that leaves some really favourable match ups for the other line. I'd like to see a line of players that can take advantage of that. Gagner wouldn't be playing with the same quality line mates, but he wouldn't be seeing the same competition either.


Last edited by Scurr: 11-05-2012 at 04:19 PM.
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11-05-2012, 04:18 PM
  #793
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I would mix the 2nd and 3rd lines with either Gagner or Bozak. Do something like this:

Higgins-Kesler-Kassian
Booth-Bozak/Gagner-Hansen

This puts two wingers that like to give up the puck with Kesler, a player that constantly wants it. The 3rd line also has one "shooter" in Booth.

With this set up, you don't have to localize zone starts to one line over the other. It just allows you to roll them all.

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11-05-2012, 04:24 PM
  #794
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Take away Gagner's one huge game last year and his numbers look far worse. I'd take a chance on him if he had some size and grit but I'm not interested in getting a tweener who makes us easier to play against.

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11-05-2012, 04:32 PM
  #795
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Take away Gagner's one huge game last year and his numbers look far worse. I'd take a chance on him if he had some size and grit but I'm not interested in getting a tweener who makes us easier to play against.
Not against Chicago he wouldn't....

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11-05-2012, 04:32 PM
  #796
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MPS>Gagner

And MPS' stock is at an all time low, which means he could be had even cheaper.And Gagners stock is at a high, especially with people across the league hearing about that one great game (which put his point per game average just slightly above his typical 40 pt season)

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11-05-2012, 04:58 PM
  #797
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MPS>Gagner
MPS can't even put up Gagner's numbers in the AHL. Why on earth are people so high on that guy?

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11-05-2012, 05:03 PM
  #798
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MPS can't even put up Gagner's numbers in the AHL. Why on earth are people so high on that guy?
Hes 21 and I have watched him play many times since the first time i seen him play because i was so impressed and its just a matter of time until he puts everything together in the NHL. He had a bad year. Hes 21. His raw skills are there and he has nhl size and skill.

He was put into the NHL rather young

Even if there is a tiny chance he doesn't become the real good player he should, you still take your chance on somebody like him or any other highly touted prospect over a 40 pt nhler who hasn't really increased in point totals besides the year that he had one crazy good game that barely increased his totals

3.2 million for Sam Gagner this year too? I wonder what hes goign to expect next year. You can only decrease a players salary so much and for a third liner? pfft

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11-05-2012, 05:08 PM
  #799
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Even if there is a tiny chance he doesn't become the real good player he should, you still take your chance on somebody like him or any other highly touted prospect over a 40 pt nhler who hasn't really increased in point totals besides the year that he had one crazy good game that barely increased his totals
Struggling 21 year old > producing 23 year old? nope.

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11-05-2012, 05:12 PM
  #800
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Struggling 21 year old > producing 23 year old? nope.
lol thats interesting, how old was kesler when people labeled him as nothing more than a good skilled 3rd liner. pfft, hes 21, and he had one bad year. most of our prospects dont even reach the nhl by 21

who doesn't struggle at 21 besides 1-5 picks

producing 3rd liner or a 21 year old with way more potential than a 40 point nhler. lol hey i wish we were both GMs, we could get alot of trades done

Edit- and actually he was 20 in the last nhl season

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