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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-30-2012, 04:33 PM
  #251
topshelf15
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Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
PKD

Karlsson is not the surefire HOFamer people on these boards tend to think he is after one high scoring / so-so defense year.
And pie isnt the best defensive two way guy that title belongs to chara or weber,as for offense out of the two way guys he places second to doughty .So this is the reason nobody thought of him for the norris ,and this will be the reason it will be a long while before he wins a norris if ever

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10-30-2012, 04:43 PM
  #252
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I wish people would recognize that I, perhaps one of Karlsson's most obnoxious supporters on HF, heavily criticized his defensive ability as recently as August of last season.

Everyone seems to think we are just homers with rosy glasses on blinking us to his faults, but it just isn't so.

The kid WAS the best defenseman in the NHL last season. If you think he can't maintain it or it was a fluke that's you and I'm not going to crystalball the future here, so have at it.

But he was the best last year, and I'm not the only one who thinks so.

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10-30-2012, 04:49 PM
  #253
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I think another point needs to be made. Even Paul Coffey had situations with teams where he was unsuccesful. And this was due to his playing style.

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10-30-2012, 04:52 PM
  #254
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Through 354 votes pretty interesting results:

1st place votes:
Karlsson - 135, Doughty - 110, Pietrangelo - 109

2nd place votes:
Pietrangelo - 141, Doughty - 120, Karlsson - 93

3rd place votes:
Karlsson - 126, Doughty - 120, Pietrangelo - 104


If these were tallied Norris-style, with 1st place votes getting 3 points & 3rd place votes getting one point, the results would be:

Karlsson - 717, Pietrangelo - 713, Doughty - 694


Pretty damn close. Petro has the fewest first place votes and fewest 3rd place votes...while Karlsson has the most first place and third place votes.

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10-30-2012, 05:03 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Sens fans seem to have this inability to process that this has just been a single season. What if Karlsson scores 45 points next year? Is it likely to happen? No. But is it possible? What is Spezza is injured?

I will go out and say this, based on variance alone it is very unlikely that Karlsson wins the Norris again.
Karlsson scored 45 points in 75 games as a sophomore. Of course it's possible he puts up 45 points next year, but it's also possible he puts up 90 points next year. Both are highly unlikely, but hey, they're both possible.

You're predicting Karlsson doesn't win the Norris again? How can you even predict that far into the future? Karlsson could play for another 20 years. Even five years from now is very hard to predict, yet you're predicting the next 20 years?

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But Sens fans keep believing that you have Paul freaking Coffey on your team. That should console the first round exits I suppose.
Very mature. Taking shots at the full team because you're losing an argument. Way to go! Applaud this man!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
PKD

Karlsson is not the surefire HOFamer people on these boards tend to think he is after one high scoring / so-so defense year.
He's not surefire HHOFer. But he did put up 78 points as a defenseman at the age of 21 and won the Norris. If that's not a reason to get excited about a player and highly praise him then I don't know what is.

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10-30-2012, 05:08 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
Karlsson scored 45 points in 75 games as a sophomore. Of course it's possible he puts up 45 points next year, but it's also possible he puts up 90 points next year. Both are highly unlikely, but hey, they're both possible.

You're predicting Karlsson doesn't win the Norris again? How can you even predict that far into the future? Karlsson could play for another 20 years. Even five years from now is very hard to predict, yet you're predicting the next 20 years?


Very mature. Taking shots at the full team because you're losing an argument. Way to go! Applaud this man!



He's not surefire HHOFer. But he did put up 78 points as a defenseman at the age of 21 and won the Norris. If that's not a reason to get excited about a player and highly praise him then I don't know what is.
You lost the argument when you quoted Bobby Orr as a credible source. I don't think this is a thread about praising players either, this is a thread debating who is the best of the 3 mentioned. So you are just totally, totally wrong

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10-30-2012, 05:10 PM
  #257
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Surely a Paul Coffey 2.0 could do something to help his teams win in the playoffs. Like, you know, how Doughty nearly stole his first ever playoff series.

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10-30-2012, 05:13 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth JD View Post
Through 354 votes pretty interesting results:

1st place votes:
Karlsson - 135, Doughty - 110, Pietrangelo - 109

2nd place votes:
Pietrangelo - 141, Doughty - 120, Karlsson - 93

3rd place votes:
Karlsson - 126, Doughty - 120, Pietrangelo - 104


If these were tallied Norris-style, with 1st place votes getting 3 points & 3rd place votes getting one point, the results would be:

Karlsson - 717, Pietrangelo - 713, Doughty - 694


Pretty damn close. Petro has the fewest first place votes and fewest 3rd place votes...while Karlsson has the most first place and third place votes.
Just FYI in Norris voting 1st place gets 10, 2nd gets 7, 3rd gets 5, but your observation that it is close still stands.

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10-30-2012, 05:14 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Surely a Paul Coffey 2.0 could do something to help his teams win in the playoffs. Like, you know, how Doughty nearly stole his first ever playoff series.
Hahahahahhahaha, this guy goin from argument to argument then when he gets beaten in one he moves on to the next avoiding his flawed basis. We have a saying for that, I believe.

"Picking the black hairs on a white sheep." Or sumtin.

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10-30-2012, 05:18 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Hahahahahhahaha, this guy goin from argument to argument then when he gets beaten in one he moves on to the next avoiding his flawed basis. We have a saying for that, I believe.

"Picking the black hairs on a white sheep." Or sumtin.
Sorry I hurt your feelings. But I value playoff performance a lot, and you are apparently unwilling to argue about players beyond "Oh... Bobby Orr said that Karlsson was a great defenseman" or something

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10-30-2012, 05:20 PM
  #261
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No one has yet to counter the fact that Karlsson is not really close in terms of physical play to Doughty and is a step behind Pietrangelo and Doughty defensively. I think the reason there has been a ton of nonsese thrown out by Karlsson supporters is that they can do absolutely nothing to counter this reality.

They will argue "oh Karlsson is great offensively blah blah blah" but the reality is that that isn't even the point of contention. Everyone in this thread basically has admitted that Karlsson had a superior 2011-12 regular season. A damn fine one too.

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10-30-2012, 05:26 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
No one has yet to counter the fact that Karlsson is not really close in terms of physical play to Doughty and is a step behind Pietrangelo and Doughty defensively.
Although physical plays look cool and all, I prefer him just taking the puck away and spending time on offense and possessing the puck.

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10-30-2012, 05:27 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
No one has yet to counter the fact that Karlsson is not really close in terms of physical play to Doughty and is a step behind Pietrangelo and Doughty defensively. I think the reason there has been a ton of nonsese thrown out by Karlsson supporters is that they can do absolutely nothing to counter this reality.

They will argue "oh Karlsson is great offensively blah blah blah" but the reality is that that isn't even the point of contention. Everyone in this thread basically has admitted that Karlsson had a superior 2011-12 regular season. A damn fine one too.
You saying that Karlsson is "a step behind Pietrangelo and Doughty defensively" is your opinion that you are passing off as a fact. That will obviously skew the argument in your favour, but it's wrong.

And on your physicality point, while seemingly true, physicality is only a small portion of defence. Karlsson brings a different element to defence then physicality, kind of a Lidstrom-esque attitude with his speed and ability to stick check.

You're allowed to have an opinion, but please stop trying to pass it off as fact when there's clearly some bias in your posts.

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10-30-2012, 05:31 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Surely a Paul Coffey 2.0 could do something to help his teams win in the playoffs. Like, you know, how Doughty nearly stole his first ever playoff series.
so much fail in this post, it's not like there were other players involved from both teams. Quick won the MVP...

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10-30-2012, 05:32 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Although physical plays look cool and all, I prefer him just taking the puck away and spending time on offense and possessing the puck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stempniaksen View Post
You saying that Karlsson is "a step behind Pietrangelo and Doughty defensively" is your opinion that you are passing off as a fact. That will obviously skew the argument in your favour, but it's wrong.

And on your physicality point, while seemingly true, physicality is only a small portion of defence. Karlsson brings a different element to defence then physicality, kind of a Lidstrom-esque attitude with his speed and ability to stick check.

You're allowed to have an opinion, but please stop trying to pass it off as fact when there's clearly some bias in your posts.
Yes Karlsson plays a different style. I get that. You don't take away credit from Lidstrom for not playing defense. But you give Pronger extra credit for being very good physically.

You all are clearly not understanding what I am saying - yes Karlsson doesn't play the game physically, but that doesn't mean that physical play isn't important. It can totally change the face of a game.

Wow am I repeating myself here or something? It's not like Doughty isn't very good at doing those things, worse than Karlsson yes but Karlsson is really really good.

I think most people would agree that Pietrangelo and Doughty are a step above Karlsson defensively, this seems to be a common opinion.

Your arguing strategy, as I understand it, is to simply dismiss parts of the game like defense and physicality as unimportant because Karlsson suffers in comparison to other elite defensemen. And you call me a bad arguer!

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10-30-2012, 05:33 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
so much fail in this post, it's not like there were other players involved from both teams. Quick won the MVP...
Nice I was referring to 2010 not 2012. So much fail in this post!

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10-30-2012, 05:39 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Yes Karlsson plays a different style. I get that. You don't take away credit from Lidstrom for not playing defense. But you give Pronger extra credit for being very good physically.

You all are clearly not understanding what I am saying - yes Karlsson doesn't play the game physically, but that doesn't mean that physical play isn't important. It can totally change the face of a game.

Wow am I repeating myself here or something? It's not like Doughty isn't very good at doing those things, worse than Karlsson yes but Karlsson is really really good.

I think most people would agree that Pietrangelo and Doughty are a step above Karlsson defensively, this seems to be a common opinion.

Your arguing strategy, as I understand it, is to simply dismiss parts of the game like defense and physicality as unimportant because Karlsson suffers in comparison to other elite defensemen. And you call me a bad arguer!
I didn't even pick Karlsson as the best of the three to be honest. It's just sad how you seem deadset on bringing down Karlsson because of a perceived lack of physicality and defence, when in reality you couldn't be further from the truth.

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10-30-2012, 05:45 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stempniaksen View Post
I didn't even pick Karlsson as the best of the three to be honest. It's just sad how you seem deadset on bringing down Karlsson because of a perceived lack of physicality and defence, when in reality you couldn't be further from the truth.
Wow have you read my posts? I think I specifically said that I am not bringing down Karlsson in the same way you don't knock Lidstrom for playing not very physical. And that Karlsson has special offensive abilities. Way to read!

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10-30-2012, 06:17 PM
  #269
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To me Doughty is the best. He has the upside to rival Karlsson offensively and the physical tools to rival Pietriangelo as a two-way defenseman. Karlsson, in my opinion, will always be limited by his "size". He's not dramatically undersized, in fact, not really undersized at all. He's just not a very physical player and doesn't have the strength, in my opinion, to develop into a great defensive defenseman, even tough his vision is through the roof.

As for Pietrangelo, he's just the perfect cornerstone to build a team around. Great offensively, great defensively. You can't ask for much more.

I went Doughty - Pietrangelo - Karlsson, altough I'm really unsure between Pietrangelo and Karlsson.

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10-30-2012, 06:26 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Sorry I hurt your feelings. But I value playoff performance a lot, and you are apparently unwilling to argue about players beyond "Oh... Bobby Orr said that Karlsson was a great defenseman" or something
You value playoff performance? Ay yo, perfect. Go read my post I made in reply to the Leaf fan who downgraded Karlsson's apparent play. 2 birds with one stone. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, I'm fine. Try focusing on coming up with better rebuttals and not escape routes.

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10-30-2012, 06:29 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
No one has yet to counter the fact that Karlsson is not really close in terms of physical play to Doughty and is a step behind Pietrangelo and Doughty defensively. I think the reason there has been a ton of nonsese thrown out by Karlsson supporters is that they can do absolutely nothing to counter this reality.

They will argue "oh Karlsson is great offensively blah blah blah" but the reality is that that isn't even the point of contention. Everyone in this thread basically has admitted that Karlsson had a superior 2011-12 regular season. A damn fine one too.
Damn that Lidstrom. A damn shame, I heard he is a good defender.

P.S. It wasn't a dame fine one. Try generational. Top 3rd points all-time by defender to only Orr and Potvin. 2nd youngest to win Norris since Orr. Yup, generational.

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To me Doughty is the best. He has the upside to rival Karlsson offensi..
I stopped reading there. Try again, man.

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10-30-2012, 06:30 PM
  #272
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Doughty
Pietrangelo



Karlsson

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10-30-2012, 06:32 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by GoKingsGoo View Post
Doughty
Pietrangelo



Karlsson
I like your avatar, man. Doughty kissing the main reason you guys won the Cup. Classy guy.

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10-30-2012, 06:37 PM
  #274
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I stopped reading there. Try again, man.
Oh, so a Sens fan [boy] disagrees with me? That must mean you're right then.

Doughty had a 59 points season as a sophomore. Last year, he came in out of shape due to missing the training camp, and it showed pretty badly. Also, the Sens finished 4th in the league for G/G, compared to the Kings, who ended up surprisingly low at the 29th place. Believe it or not, that plays a huge roll on how much points a player will produce. Despite a sup-bar season, he came out big in the playoffs, being a legit contender for the Conn Smythe if it weren't for Quick stellar play, racking up 16 points in 20 games.

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10-30-2012, 06:44 PM
  #275
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Karlsson had more points last season than Doughty had in his last 2 seasons combined but hes only "slightly" better offensively than Doughty. Yeah, ok.

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