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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:45 PM
  #276
LetsGoFlyers1825
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Doughty
Pietrangelo
Karlsson

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:46 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix60 View Post
Oh, so a Sens fan [boy] disagrees with me? That must mean you're right then.

Doughty had a 59 points season as a sophomore. Last year, he came in out of shape due to missing the training camp, and it showed pretty badly. Also, the Sens finished 4th in the league for G/G, compared to the Kings, who ended up surprisingly low at the 29th place. Believe it or not, that plays a huge roll on how much points a player will produce. Despite a sup-bar season, he came out big in the playoffs, being a legit contender for the Conn Smythe if it weren't for Quick stellar play, racking up 16 points in 20 games.
Every single thread. If this thread was Karlsson vs Kopitar you would have said the exact same thing for Kopitar.

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10-30-2012, 06:48 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Every single thread. If this thread was Karlsson vs Kopitar you would have said the exact same thing for Kopitar.
You mean I say that every single thread? News to me, since I'm far from a Kings fan.

And yeah, Kopitar was the other legit contender out there with Quick, but Quick rightfully won it in the end. What's your point?

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10-30-2012, 06:53 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Damn that Lidstrom. A damn shame, I heard he is a good defender.

P.S. It wasn't a dame fine one. Try generational. Top 3rd points all-time by defender to only Orr and Potvin. 2nd youngest to win Norris since Orr. Yup, generational.



I stopped reading there. Try again, man.
Umm... I'm not going to sift through everything said here, but I'd like to point out this gem. the NHL started before the (first) lockout in case your forgot

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10-30-2012, 06:55 PM
  #280
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You can talk about Norris all you want, I'll take the guy who played a MAJOR role on a Stanley Cup winning team, as well as on a gold winning team Canada.

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10-30-2012, 06:56 PM
  #281
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You know just because Karlsson is Swedish doesn't mean that his lack of physical play needs to be compared to Lidstrom to make it better. I think that is just lazy arguing to be honest.

I guess Doughty was, you know, a #1 defenseman and the the top offensive defenseman in the playoffs. Sens fans act as if Doughty hasn't achieved anything. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that the games are far past 10PM bed time however.

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10-30-2012, 06:57 PM
  #282
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I'm just going to have to assume from all of this that Senators fans stopped watching once they got beaten by the Rangers in the playoffs. Doughty was far and away the best defenseman in the playoffs, and it wasn't even close. Farther away than Karlsson from his competition in the regular season. And this isn't an opinion, it's bonafide fact, I'd like to see anyone even debate this point

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10-30-2012, 06:59 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
You can talk about Norris all you want, I'll take the guy who played a MAJOR role on a Stanley Cup winning team, as well as on a gold winning team Canada.
So hes good at being on stacked teams?

I'll take the player that makes his own success.

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10-30-2012, 07:00 PM
  #284
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Doughty being more physical than Karlsson is pretty irrelevant.

Lidstrom made a pretty good career out of not being physical

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10-30-2012, 07:01 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix60 View Post
You mean I say that every single thread? News to me, since I'm far from a Kings fan.

And yeah, Kopitar was the other legit contender out there with Quick, but Quick rightfully won it in the end. What's your point?
Not you personally.

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10-30-2012, 07:01 PM
  #286
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By the way Karlsson only outscored Lubomir Visnovsky by 10 points and that guy didn't even get a Norris nod. So much for generational.

Doughty was a top-3 player on the Kings, hardly benefitting from a stacked team. I'd reccomend you see a few of the playoff games before you comment

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10-30-2012, 07:03 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I'm just going to have to assume from all of this that Senators fans stopped watching once they got beaten by the Rangers in the playoffs. Doughty was far and away the best defenseman in the playoffs, and it wasn't even close. Farther away than Karlsson from his competition in the regular season. And this isn't an opinion, it's bonafide fact, I'd like to see anyone even debate this point
So Doughty > Chara, Weber, Suter as well because of 1 playoffs.

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10-30-2012, 07:04 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
So Doughty > Chara, Weber, Suter as well because of 1 playoffs.
Think about that one and I will get back to you

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10-30-2012, 07:14 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Umm... I'm not going to sift through everything said here, but I'd like to point out this gem. the NHL started before the (first) lockout in case your forgot
My bad, I meant for 21 year olds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
By the way Karlsson only outscored Lubomir Visnovsky by 10 points and that guy didn't even get a Norris nod. So much for generational.

Doughty was a top-3 player on the Kings, hardly benefitting from a stacked team. I'd reccomend you see a few of the playoff games before you comment
Wait, when? And how old was he? This is info I need to know so get to it. Again, picking the black hairs off a white sheep. Stop proving my point, it's becoming too easy.

Yes, Doughty is good, I'm not denying that, stop bringing him up to me. He had a great playoffs, but so did Karlsson. Doughty though had much stronger support all-around that made him excel farther.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Karlsson had more points last season than Doughty had in his last 2 seasons combined but hes only "slightly" better offensively than Doughty. Yeah, ok.
Looooooooooooooool.

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10-30-2012, 07:24 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
My bad, I meant for 21 year olds.



Wait, when? And how old was he? This is info I need to know so get to it. Again, picking the black hairs off a white sheep. Stop proving my point, it's becoming too easy.

Yes, Doughty is good, I'm not denying that, stop bringing him up to me. He had a great playoffs, but so did Karlsson. Doughty though had much stronger support all-around that made him excel farther.



Looooooooooooooool.
I think your point is that Karlsson is significantly better than Doughty. And I think I have shown how that isn't tenable once you look past the stats sheet and also look at the totality of careers.

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10-30-2012, 07:29 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I think your point is that Karlsson is significantly better than Doughty. And I think I have shown how that isn't tenable once you look past the stats sheet and also look at the totality of careers.
Lol, what? Since when? I'm saying Karlsson is better, keep adding in info that you want to make up. Never assume, it makes an a** of u and me.

Damn, these sayings are coming in handy.

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10-30-2012, 07:32 PM
  #292
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Karlsson and Pietrangelo ARE significantly better than Doughty.

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10-30-2012, 07:38 PM
  #293
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And giroux is so much better than ovechkin. That is the totality of the logic you are using. I finally hit the nail on the head to what i was thinking.

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10-30-2012, 07:56 PM
  #294
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Norris should be awarded to the top D on the Stanley Cup winning team. No doubt Doughty is good, but consistency is an issue. What Doughty will we see next season? The one that stepped up on several occasions, or the Doughty that put himself out of Norris discussion?

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10-30-2012, 07:59 PM
  #295
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I would expect doughty to have a career year next year. If he doesnt do it then, it will be pretty obvious that karlsson has the upper hand unless he doesnt play as well as he did

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10-30-2012, 08:13 PM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Karlsson and Pietrangelo ARE significantly better than Doughty.
Why because little Benny says so? Okay, kid. You win.

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10-30-2012, 09:05 PM
  #297
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Why because little Benny says so? Okay, kid. You win.
Yes and many other people too.

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10-30-2012, 09:09 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Yes and many other people too.
32% of the participant in this poll said Doughty was the BEST of the 3.

I think it shows they are all pretty equal, nah?

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10-30-2012, 09:37 PM
  #299
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Yeah ek fans the polls dont lie. Many people hold all 3 dmen in equal esteem, just like is being argued today.

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10-30-2012, 10:24 PM
  #300
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For those saying Doughty's 2010 year was better than Karlsson's and that's why they choose Doughty, let me just point some things out because I had a slow night.

Here is their comparisons at 5 on 5:



The line at the bottom shows the difference. If in green, it should be read as "Karlsson is better by X percent" and if it is in green it should be read as "Doughty is better by X percent", for those of you who understand statistics you understand why I'm specifying this.

So here is my interpretation of the numbers:

-Karlsson scored a whopping 56% more points than Doughty per 60 minutes.
-Karlsson was used more often than Doughty at ES, which shouldn't be a surprise since Karlsson didn't PK and Doughty did.
-Both first pairing defenseman.
-Karlsson's team scored 26% more often when on the ice than Doughty's team did.
-Karlsson's team got scored on 34% more often when on the ice than Doughty's team did.
-Overall, Karlsson's team was 8% better than Doughty's team was when both on the ice.
-Karlsson's team was 159% more dominant in terms of net shots against the other team than Doughty's team was when both were on the ice. That's insane.
-Karlsson gave the puck up 15% more than Doughty. Very marginal.
-Karlsson stole the puck 235% more than Doughty. Huge.
-Doughty hit a lot more than Karlsson: no surprise to anyone.
-Doughty blocked a few more shots than Karlsson, nothing considerable.
-Both were on the ice for very similar amounts of offensive-zone faceoffs.

If I showed these numbers - which really I tried to be as unbiased as possible as to which statistics I selected - to random knowledgeable hockeyfans and masked the names, I'd imagine almost all of them would choose Karlsson.

There is no way you can tell me Doughty's superior hits, better GA ON 60, and marginally less giveaways and marginally more blocked shots even comes CLOSE to making up for Karlsson's whopping 56% advantage in points per 60 minutes (let alone the other categories Karlsson beat Doughty in). Let's also not forget that it was easier to score in 2010 than it was in 2012 too.

Then if you want to look at team-relative stats:



Relative to their teams, Ottawa with Karlsson (relative to without Karlsson) was much better at scoring goals than LA with Doughty (relative to without Doughty).

The opposite is true for GA.

However, when looking at the net goal differential, Karlsson made a bigger impact on winning hockey games in terms of +/- than Doughty did relative to their teams (loose speak here).

Karlsson's insane corsi relative shows that Ottawa was firing wayyyyy more shots when he was on the ice and allowing wayyyyy less than when he was off. Again, he made a much larger impact than Doughty.

Lastly, Karlsson contributed to 30.12% of his teams goals, Doughty a significantly lower 19.31%.

Again, stats are not perfect and there are certainly other factors are play that are difficult (impossible?) to tease out, but the argument that Doughty-2010 was better than Karlsson-2012 seems extremely difficult to support.

I'll leave everyone to draw their own personal conclusions, but I thought these statistics were pertinent.

For me, from a statistical perspective, it's clear who I think the winner of this matchup is.

I understand Doughty was younger when he did this season, but to me, this was his best year...he's done nothing but regress since then so I'm not sure that's a relevant issue.

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