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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-30-2012, 10:33 PM
  #301
ReginKarlssonLehner
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Looooooooooooooooooooool, we shall end it at that. I was trying to fiend them off till you arrived Sureves.

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10-30-2012, 11:18 PM
  #302
Muzzinga
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Not sure you will find a single Kings fan who thinks Doughty was a better player in 2010 than he is right now. Ye he scored a bunch more points, but 2012 Doughty is significantly better than 2010 Doughty in every aspect of the game

2012 Doughty played tougher minutes and absolutely crushed 2010 Doughty's Corsi, plus doesnt make anywhere close to the number of defensive lapses 2010 made

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10-31-2012, 12:01 AM
  #303
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Sorry I've said it before, I don't buy statistics as an argument. I only buy eye viewing so please.

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10-31-2012, 12:02 AM
  #304
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Statistics don't take into account Terry Murray

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10-31-2012, 12:06 AM
  #305
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Old
10-31-2012, 12:46 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Sorry I've said it before, I don't buy statistics as an argument. I only buy eye viewing so please.
And you've dismissed/argued against everything Bobby Orr, Paul Coffey and everyone on HF have said about Karlsson.

In other words, only what you see is correct. Right?



Not only, in your opinion, is your opinion the only valid one, you also think watching players is a flawless way of evaluating players. Even the best scouts in the world are not perfect.

People miss stuff while watching. You can't see everything. Someone like you doesn't know what to look for anyway. ''BIG HIT!!!1!!! Aw YEAH!!! GO Doughttttyyyyyyyyy''


Last edited by spiny norman: 10-31-2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: not needed
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Old
10-31-2012, 01:02 AM
  #307
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Non biased fan here
voted Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro

Doughty of the 2012 playoffs was a beast. He was dominant defensively and physically, MUCH smarter and more mature than 2010 Doughty, and was clutch offensively when his team needed him.

I love Karlsson, but he wouldn't have dominated physically against big teams like St. Louis and Phoenix like Doughty did.

The 3 defensemen are close, all top pairing defensemen, but I think it's absurd to put Pietrangelo over a guy who dominated the 2010 Olympics and got a gold medal PLUS dominated the 2012 playoffs and got a Stanley cup, and a defenseman who pretty much turned his team's defense around, got 76 points, and re ignited the Sens defense and got a Norris trophy.

Close, but I believe its Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro

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10-31-2012, 09:21 AM
  #308
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I'll take the only defenceman to win that award...what do you call it again. OH YEAH THE AWARD FOR THE BEST DEFENCEMAN IN THE LEAGUE! Exactly what we are juding right now lmao


Karlsson EASILY

EDIT: This is just a way for teams to justify taking 40pt defenceman before an all star. I'd love to see where people would rate Doughty and Pietro against Chara and Weber. Even though ppl who are paid to do this already said Karlsson was better than both of those players and probobally didnt even have Doughty and Pietro on the radar. I'd love to judge how accurate HF'ers can be by comparing the other two finalists against these apparent all stars.

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10-31-2012, 09:26 AM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
I'll take the only defenceman to win that award...what do you call it again. OH YEAH THE AWARD FOR THE BEST DEFENCEMAN IN THE LEAGUE! Exactly what we are juding right now lmao


Karlsson EASILY

EDIT: This is just a way for teams to justify taking 40pt defenceman before an all star. I'd love to see where people would rate Doughty and Pietro against Chara and Weber. Even though ppl who are paid to do this already said Karlsson was better than both of those players and probobally didnt even have Doughty and Pietro on the radar. I'd love to judge how accurate HF'ers can be by comparing the other two finalists against these apparent all stars.
It probably goes something like'
Chara
Weber
Doughty
Pietrangelo
.
.
.
.
.
Komisarek
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Karlsson

Purely on defensive play.

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10-31-2012, 09:30 AM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It probably goes something like'
Chara
Weber
Doughty
Pietrangelo
.
.
.
.
.
Komisarek
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Karlsson

Purely on defensive play.
I think that proves my point lol

I hate to sound like I'm ranting but here are the facts:
a straight up trade between Karlsson and Doughty makes the Kings better and the SENS worse
a straight up trade between Karlsson and Pietro makes the Blues better and the SENS worse

What Doughty and Pietro bring that Karlsson doesnt can be supplemented with the Marc Methot's of the world but what Karlsson brings that Doughty and Pietro dont can only be replaced by another...you guessed it! Karlsson...

I'll end this with a count of Norris trophies. I got one for Karlsson, until either of these guys gets one they arent' on my radar.

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10-31-2012, 10:02 AM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
I hate to sound like I'm ranting but here are the facts:
a straight up trade between Karlsson and Doughty makes the Kings better and the SENS worse
a straight up trade between Karlsson and Pietro makes the Blues better and the SENS worse

What Doughty and Pietro bring that Karlsson doesnt can be supplemented with the Marc Methot's of the world but what Karlsson brings that Doughty and Pietro dont can only be replaced by another...you guessed it! Karlsson...
This is simply absurd. I can't even begin to describe how ridiculous that statement is.

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10-31-2012, 10:21 AM
  #312
BrawlFan
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
This is simply absurd. I can't even begin to describe how ridiculous that statement is.
Blues fans and SENS fans will never agree.

You have your opinion and I have mine.

I have my Norris trophy and you have..... I kid I kid.

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10-31-2012, 10:28 AM
  #313
bleedblue1223
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Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
Blues fans and SENS fans will never agree.

You have your opinion and I have mine.

I have my Norris trophy and you have..... I kid I kid.
I think it's funny how some fans treat the Norris like the Cup.

If you substitute Karlsson for Pietrangelo or Doughty, the Blues and Kings would not be better because the style of the teams and the conference they play in. It really has nothing to do with anything else.

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10-31-2012, 10:39 AM
  #314
topshelf15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It probably goes something like'
Chara
Weber
Doughty
Pietrangelo
.
.
.
.
.
Komisarek
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Karlsson

Purely on defensive play.
We will probably be adding another pretty good two way guy in OEL,so as i have said before i dont see how anyone can say one of them is the best two way guy hand down. Thats a pretty stacked group,to stand out in

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10-31-2012, 10:42 AM
  #315
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I think the question most have with Karlsson is, can he do it again? Because if he duplicates last season, he just may win the Norris again. I can only imagine a two time winner by the age of 23 would be winning this poll rather easily.

So we'll find out.

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Old
10-31-2012, 10:52 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
Not sure you will find a single Kings fan who thinks Doughty was a better player in 2010 than he is right now. Ye he scored a bunch more points, but 2012 Doughty is significantly better than 2010 Doughty in every aspect of the game

2012 Doughty played tougher minutes and absolutely crushed 2010 Doughty's Corsi, plus doesnt make anywhere close to the number of defensive lapses 2010 made
That's fair (though I think there are fans who believe he was given the responses on this page alone) and I think I watched Doughty twice this year (excluding playoffs) so far be it for me to say anything on that subject.

But to me, a 36 point defenseman who faces top lines is never better than a 78 point defenseman who faces top lines.

Call me close-minded, but 42 points it too big of a point gap to overlook in all realistic cases.

If fans are saying Doughty-2012playoffs was better than Karlsson-2012regular season, that I think is a lot more reasonable. Doughty was just filthy out there, but frankly I don't think you can vote Doughty on this poll with that small of a sample size, but that's just me.

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10-31-2012, 12:51 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
I think that proves my point lol

I hate to sound like I'm ranting but here are the facts:
a straight up trade between Karlsson and Doughty makes the Kings better and the SENS worse
a straight up trade between Karlsson and Pietro makes the Blues better and the SENS worse

What Doughty and Pietro bring that Karlsson doesnt can be supplemented with the Marc Methot's of the world but what Karlsson brings that Doughty and Pietro dont can only be replaced by another...you guessed it! Karlsson...

I'll end this with a count of Norris trophies. I got one for Karlsson, until either of these guys gets one they arent' on my radar.
This is jaw dropping ridiculous.

Here's my take on if that trade went down: Karlsson gets on Hitch's bad side for being much worse defensively than Pietrangelo(notice Karlsson's name on HF's "defenseman defensively" poll? no? yeah neither do I), he doesn't fit in with our system, doesn't have an elite forward like Jason Spezza to actually put the puck in the net and his points take a huge hit just playing in the west in general.

Pietrangelo's numbers in the Sen's run and gun system go up (offensive system/much better shooters), not quite to Karlsson's this past year but he also vastly improves Sen's defense.

And don't start with me about how much better Karlsson would be defensively on the Blues. While you can judge offense ability just like you would defensive ability---by watching the player play, offense is also highly judged by numbers alone. THERE ARE NO ASSISTS (or for that matter second assists) WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENSE. A PLAYER'S DEFENSIVE PROWESS IS HIS ALONE AND IS NOT HELPED OUT BY OTHER PLAYERS ASSISTING.

Who was Pietrangelo's partner this past season that made Pie's defense look sooo good? yes that's right Carlo freakin Coliacovo!

On the flipside who was helping contribute to Karlsson's offensive numbers? could it be...Jason Spezza? (I love how you Sens fans give him so little credit for fear of diminishing what Karlsson did lol)

If next season Karlsson's points drop because the Sen's goal scorers simply aren't putting the puck in the net, people are gonna be like WTF? What's wrong with Karlsson? And that's because many have only judged him by the numbers you see at the end of the season.


Last edited by journeyman79: 10-31-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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Old
10-31-2012, 01:12 PM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman79 View Post
This is jaw dropping ridiculous.

Here's my take: Karlsson gets on Hitch's bad side for being poor defensively (notice Karlsson's name on HF's "defenseman defensively" poll? no? yeah neither do I), he doesn't fit in with our system, doesn't have Jason Spezza to actually put the puck in the net and his points take a huge hit just playing in the west in general.

Pietrangelo's numbers in the Sen's run and gun system go up (offensive system/much better shooters), not quite to Karlsson's this past year but he also vastly improves Sen's defense.

And don't start with me about how much better Karlsson would be defensively on the Blues. While you can judge offense ability just like you would defensive ability---by watching the player play, offense is also highly judged by numbers alone. THERE ARE NO ASSISTS (or for that matter second assists) WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENSE. A PLAYER'S DEFENSIVE PROWESS IS HIS ALONE AND IS NOT HELPED OUT BY OTHER PLAYERS ASSISTING.

If next season Karlsson's points drop because the Sen's goal scorers simply aren't putting the puck in the net, people are gonna be like WTF? What's wrong with Karlsson? And that's because many have only judged him by the numbers you see at the end of the season.
Hey,

You're wrong.

PlayerGA per 60Shots against per 60
KEVINSHATTENKIRK1.5424.6
CARLOCOLAIACOVO1.7123.9
KRISRUSSELL1.7723.4
BARRETJACKMAN1.3523.4
ROMANPOLAK1.9723.7

These defenseman would, assuming 20 minutes of ice time, allow:

0.56 goals, and 8 shots against assuming they were on the ice for 20 minutes of ES icetime.

Now let's look at Ottawa.

PlayerGA per 60Shots against per 60
FILIPKUBA2.4529.3
JAREDCOWEN2.5726.7
SERGEIGONCHAR2.4328.5
CHRISPHILLIPS2.1729.1

These defenseman would, assuming 20 minutes of ice time, allow:

0.80 goals, and 9.5 shots against assuming they were on the ice for 20 minutes of ES icetime.

In other words, in terms of goals against, you'd expect Karlsson to look approximately 42% worse defensively by playing in Ottawa instead of St. Louis. That's pretty significant if you ask me. You'd also expect him to face 19% more shots in Ottawa than he would in St. Louis. Again, that's pretty significant.

If you don't think he'd look MUCH better defensively in St. Louis: you're wrong.

And in fact, if you want to go down that route, you'd expect Karlsson to look approximately 17.5% better than Pietrangelo offensively (note: much lower than the 42% mentioned above) because he plays on Ottawa instead of St. Louis in terms of goals, and he'd actually look worse playing in Ottawa than St. Louis from a shots perspective (ie. Ottawa without Karlsson gets less shots than St. Louis without Pietrangelo).

These numbers actually show that Karlsson would look better defensively in St. Louis than Pietrangelo would look better offensively in Ottawa.

This aside from the fact that Karlsson actually put up points directly instead of merely being on the ice - 78 points in case you forgot.

So again, to reiterate, you're very wrong.

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10-31-2012, 01:18 PM
  #319
journeyman79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Hey,

You're wrong.

PlayerGA per 60Shots against per 60
KEVINSHATTENKIRK1.5424.6
CARLOCOLAIACOVO1.7123.9
KRISRUSSELL1.7723.4
BARRETJACKMAN1.3523.4
ROMANPOLAK1.9723.7

These defenseman would, assuming 20 minutes of ice time, allow:

0.56 goals, and 8 shots against assuming they were on the ice for 20 minutes of ES icetime.

Now let's look at Ottawa.

PlayerGA per 60Shots against per 60
FILIPKUBA2.4529.3
JAREDCOWEN2.5726.7
SERGEIGONCHAR2.4328.5
CHRISPHILLIPS2.1729.1

These defenseman would, assuming 20 minutes of ice time, allow:

0.80 goals, and 9.5 shots against assuming they were on the ice for 20 minutes of ES icetime.

In other words, in terms of goals against, you'd expect Karlsson to look approximately 42% worse defensively by playing in Ottawa instead of St. Louis. That's pretty significant if you ask me. You'd also expect him to face 19% more shots in Ottawa than he would in St. Louis. Again, that's pretty significant.

If you don't think he'd look MUCH better defensively in St. Louis: you're wrong.

And in fact, if you want to go down that route, you'd expect Karlsson to look approximately 17.5% better than Pietrangelo offensively (note: much lower than the 42% mentioned above) because he plays on Ottawa instead of St. Louis in terms of goals, and he'd actually look worse playing in Ottawa than St. Louis from a shots perspective (ie. Ottawa without Karlsson gets less shots than St. Louis without Pietrangelo).

These numbers actually show that Karlsson would look better defensively in St. Louis than Pietrangelo would look better offensively in Ottawa.

This aside from the fact that Karlsson actually put up points directly instead of merely being on the ice - 78 points in case you forgot.

So again, to reiterate, you're very wrong.

How does this account for quality of shots? Any hockey fan knows the disparaging differences that exist between one shot and another.

I think you're also not taking goaltending into account. In general you can average out everything as you please but according to your train of thought other players like Shea Weber and Chara aren't actually good defenders but products of their system and if they were put on offensive teams they would all of a sudden(?) forget how to see the ice like elite defenders? Let's see how well Nashville replaces Ryan Suter...should be easy right?


Last edited by journeyman79: 10-31-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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Old
10-31-2012, 01:30 PM
  #320
bleedblue1223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Hey,

You're wrong.

PlayerGA per 60Shots against per 60
KEVINSHATTENKIRK1.5424.6
CARLOCOLAIACOVO1.7123.9
KRISRUSSELL1.7723.4
BARRETJACKMAN1.3523.4
ROMANPOLAK1.9723.7

These defenseman would, assuming 20 minutes of ice time, allow:

0.56 goals, and 8 shots against assuming they were on the ice for 20 minutes of ES icetime.

Now let's look at Ottawa.

PlayerGA per 60Shots against per 60
FILIPKUBA2.4529.3
JAREDCOWEN2.5726.7
SERGEIGONCHAR2.4328.5
CHRISPHILLIPS2.1729.1

These defenseman would, assuming 20 minutes of ice time, allow:

0.80 goals, and 9.5 shots against assuming they were on the ice for 20 minutes of ES icetime.

In other words, in terms of goals against, you'd expect Karlsson to look approximately 42% worse defensively by playing in Ottawa instead of St. Louis. That's pretty significant if you ask me. You'd also expect him to face 19% more shots in Ottawa than he would in St. Louis. Again, that's pretty significant.

If you don't think he'd look MUCH better defensively in St. Louis: you're wrong.

And in fact, if you want to go down that route, you'd expect Karlsson to look approximately 17.5% better than Pietrangelo offensively (note: much lower than the 42% mentioned above) because he plays on Ottawa instead of St. Louis in terms of goals, and he'd actually look worse playing in Ottawa than St. Louis from a shots perspective (ie. Ottawa without Karlsson gets less shots than St. Louis without Pietrangelo).

These numbers actually show that Karlsson would look better defensively in St. Louis than Pietrangelo would look better offensively in Ottawa.

This aside from the fact that Karlsson actually put up points directly instead of merely being on the ice - 78 points in case you forgot.

So again, to reiterate, you're very wrong.
This entire argument is so flawed it's not even funny. Just stop manipulating stats. Differing systems, goaltending, and forwards also play a major role in defense. You, like always are ignoring too many variables. Besides, your statistics are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The question is would the Blues be better with Karlsson or Pietrangelo? Not How Karlsson would look with the Blues. Karlsson would still be a really good player with us, but his style and attributes would make us a worse team because of the style we play, and the competition we go against.

If you looked at what he put after the part you bolded, you'd notice that he, like others do not believe in statistics making the entire case. Statistics will fluctuate from season to season, but that doesn't mean a player's ability fluctuates that much. It doesn't take a genius to realize that Pietrangelo is a perfect fit for St. Louis' style and Karlsson would not be.

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10-31-2012, 01:47 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
This entire argument is so flawed it's not even funny. Just stop manipulating stats. Differing systems, goaltending, and forwards also play a major role in defense. You, like always are ignoring too many variables. Besides, your statistics are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
That's precisely what those statistics are capturing. I'm showing that it appears that St. Louis as a team systematically allows less goals than Ottawa. If Karlsson played in St. Louis he would very highly likely allow significantly less goals than he does in Ottawa - which is what the statistics are showing.

Credit it to better teammates, forwards, defense, coaching, fans, what they eat on game day, whatever you like, the point is that the poster I was responding to said Karlsson wouldn't look better defensively if he played in St. Louis: and he's wrong.

Quote:
The question is would the Blues be better with Karlsson or Pietrangelo? Not How Karlsson would look with the Blues. Karlsson would still be a really good player with us, but his style and attributes would make us a worse team because of the style we play, and the competition we go against.
That may be your question, that isn't the question I was responding to, and it's way too subjective to offer an opinion about so I'll stay out of it.

Quote:
If you looked at what he put after the part you bolded, you'd notice that he, like others do not believe in statistics making the entire case. Statistics will fluctuate from season to season, but that doesn't mean a player's ability fluctuates that much. It doesn't take a genius to realize that Pietrangelo is a perfect fit for St. Louis' style and Karlsson would not be.
See here's the thing though. You guys say you don't put much credence what all time greats say about it (Orr, Coffey, Potvin, etc). You guys say you don't put much credence in what the journalists say. You guys say you don't put much credence in what Senators fans say. You guys say you don't put much credence in what fans who watch him on a regular basis say. You guys say you don't put much credence in what the statistics say. You guys say you don't put much credence in what I say.

Even though all of those things point in the same direction...

The only thing you guys seem to lend any credence to whatsoever is your own opinions


Last edited by Sureves: 10-31-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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10-31-2012, 01:49 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by journeyman79 View Post
How does this account for quality of shots? Any hockey fan knows the disparaging differences that exist between one shot and another.

I think you're also not taking goaltending into account. In general you can average out everything as you please but according to your train of thought other players like Shea Weber and Chara aren't actually good defenders but products of their system and if they were put on offensive teams they would all of a sudden(?) forget how to see the ice like elite defenders? Let's see how well Nashville replaces Ryan Suter...should be easy right?
Quality of shots (and goaltending) should be captured in goals against... If anything Ottawa allows more quality shots than St. Louis, another thing that would support the belief that Karlsson would look much better defensively in St. Louis.

And no, I never said that about Boston or Nashville, I invite you to do your own analysis on those teams. I'm talking about St. Louis.

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10-31-2012, 01:49 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
Doughty
Pietrangelo
Karlsson
This.

I'd easily take Doughty and Pietrangelo over Karlsson.

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10-31-2012, 01:55 PM
  #324
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Based on which one I think would be the most effective #1 defenceman, it's a toss-up between Pietrangelo and Doughty as best, followed by Karlsson.

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10-31-2012, 02:02 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
That may be your question, that isn't the question I was responding to, and it's way too subjective to offer an opinion about so I'll stay out of it.
You literally read what you want to read. The poster you responded to, was responding to a statement that the Blues and Kings would be better off with Karlsson, which is ridiculous on both ends, and it has nothing to do with who is better, but the styles of each player and the competition they have to go against.

It is determined by simply watching each player actually play. The West is more physical against the West. Being physical or having the size to deal with physicality is better suited for teams in the West. The East is typically more offensive, which is why having the best pure offensive defenseman would be better for the Senators.

It just so happens that each defenseman in question is with the best team for them to succeed. LA looks to physically dominate; St. Louis plays a disciplined, technical, and organized game; and Ottawa plays an offensive game. Each player has the exact abilities of their team's style.

And stop using team stats to prove an individual, especially team shots to prove an individual's offensive performance.

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