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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-27-2012, 07:09 AM
  #126
Hynh
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Using the 10-7-5-3-1 point scheme from the Norris voting, the current results are

Karlsson 1714
Doughty 1640
Pietrangelo 1640

Personally, I voted DPK. I probably should have voted DKP but whatever.

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Old
10-27-2012, 08:53 AM
  #127
Jack Donaghy
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It's awesome that there are so many great/potentially great defensemen out there now. Great time to be a hockey fan... well, not right NOW.

Edit - I still think Myers will insert himself into this conversation and probably win a Norris some time in his career.

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Old
10-27-2012, 11:02 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Samsquanch View Post
Word. Should the art ross and hart winners from the east be scrutinized because they play there?

I think there's a difference in play style between the two conferences, no doubt about it. But there's nothing to stop you from scoring at a high rate in the west, thats just absurd. Ask Thornton or the Sedins. Are people suggesting they were enormously better than the stars in the east they beat out those years, just because they played for western teams?

In my opinion, the west is more defence oriented because because in actuality there are less star/impact type players who play there. A lot of those teams have to adopt the "clog the neutral zone/dump and chase" style because that can still win you a lot of games if you dont have that star power, and the system is executed properly.

When you have a weapon to use like a Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Karlsson, Ovechkin, Kovalchuck ect., you do whatever you can to put it to good use. Your wasting a lot of talent that can win you games if not.

So my point is that if Karlsson made his way to the west, Im sure he would do just fine because whatever team got him would likely try to get every ounce of his talent out of him.
You mean like putting him on the PK, because all top D play the PK, you cant win the Norris without good PK time right??

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Old
10-27-2012, 11:12 AM
  #129
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Doughty is every bit as talented offensively as Karlsson or any other young defenseman in the league. Look at what the Kings did to Jack Johnson, and that's all you need to know about how much the team inhibits creative, risk taking offensive play from the blueline.

Difference between Doughty and Karlsson is that Doughty has adapted the very same raw offensive skills and transitioned them into defensive play, as well. I don't understand what's wrong with asking your young, offensively talented defenseman to play some D. It won the Kings a Cup. What has "letting your players off their leashes" done for Ottawa?

And so what, Karlsson has more regular season points? Really? Have you seen Doughty's points-per-game in the postseason? Please tell me more about Karlsson's extensive playoff success. willywonka.jpg

People make way too much about piles of regular season points. If that's what mattered, Joe Thornton would be the best player in the league. What matters in this sport is what you do in May and June. That's it. Blame it on the team around them, the lack of proper coaching/management/linemates/insert excuse. Whatever you claim, neither Karlsson or Pietro have the success that Doughty does. Doughty has an enormous amount of success at the highest levels of the game. That didn't happen on accident.

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Old
10-27-2012, 11:19 AM
  #130
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Doughty
Pietrangelo
Karlsson.

Basically 1a,b,c not much difference between them.

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Old
10-27-2012, 11:23 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
Doughty is every bit as talented offensively as Karlsson or any other young defenseman in the league. Look at what the Kings did to Jack Johnson, and that's all you need to know about how much the team inhibits creative, risk taking offensive play from the blueline.

Difference between Doughty and Karlsson is that Doughty has adapted the very same raw offensive skills and transitioned them into defensive play, as well. I don't understand what's wrong with asking your young, offensively talented defenseman to play some D. It won the Kings a Cup. What has "letting your players off their leashes" done for Ottawa?

And so what, Karlsson has more regular season points? Really? Have you seen Doughty's points-per-game in the postseason? Please tell me more about Karlsson's extensive playoff success. willywonka.jpg

People make way too much about piles of regular season points. If that's what mattered, Joe Thornton would be the best player in the league. What matters in this sport is what you do in May and June. That's it. Blame it on the team around them, the lack of proper coaching/management/linemates/insert excuse. Whatever you claim, neither Karlsson or Pietro have the success that Doughty does. Doughty has an enormous amount of success at the highest levels of the game. That didn't happen on accident.
Ya ok...So Karlsson scored 42 more points then Doughty....he is not as good offensively as Karlsson. Come on already.

Karlsson has 7 points in 13 playoff games...not bad.

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Old
10-27-2012, 11:23 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
Doughty is every bit as talented offensively as Karlsson or any other young defenseman in the league. Look at what the Kings did to Jack Johnson, and that's all you need to know about how much the team inhibits creative, risk taking offensive play from the blueline.
.
That's just not true. Clear as day. It takes like 10 minutes of watching them play, or less, to see which player is more effective at creating offense. It's the guy that on any given night could direct 10+ shots on net while choosing to pass first in most cases.

I would put him in 2nd though pretty quickly.

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Old
10-27-2012, 12:09 PM
  #133
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I like that Karlsson is leading in both first place votes and third place votes. Apparently you either love him or hate him, and there isn't much middle ground

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10-27-2012, 12:12 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by burf View Post
I like that Karlsson is leading in both first place votes and third place votes. Apparently you either love him or hate him, and there isn't much middle ground
Maybe. But all these guys are so good. There is no shame in coming in behind Pietrangelo and Doughty.

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Old
10-27-2012, 12:39 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by burf View Post
I like that Karlsson is leading in both first place votes and third place votes. Apparently you either love him or hate him, and there isn't much middle ground
It's those that buy the bullcrap and those that don't.

You don't really see many people that watch him regularly, and I'm talking North Eastern teams (particularly Habs and Leafs fans), that don't praise him.

It was the same in Norris voting, won the Norris, but also left off the most ballots of the 3 nominees.

The people that are exposed to him understand what he brings to the table. Those that don't think he's Mike Green. And if they cheer for a team with a young Dman they want to believe is better, he'll get trashed even harder. It was comical how good he was last year. You just can't say that about Pietrangelo or Doughty. Sure, you can sit there and say his points won't stay that high, and I doubt they will every year, but he'll probably learn how to manage the puck and control the game even more so than he does now regardless of the numbers. That's his biggest strength; having the game on his stick more than anyone else seems to. Don't care where the points are exactly because we know they are gonna be high, but he's probably gonna get better as a player in general as will the other two. But the other two aren't gonna be able to do what he can offensively on any given touch...although Doughty comes close.


Last edited by Minister of Offence: 10-27-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old
10-27-2012, 12:40 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
Maybe. But all these guys are so good. There is no shame in coming in behind Pietrangelo and Doughty.
No shame in coming ahead either; the other half of the point he was making.

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10-27-2012, 12:46 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burf View Post
I like that Karlsson is leading in both first place votes and third place votes. Apparently you either love him or hate him, and there isn't much middle ground
Most people who vote him first are probably Sen fans.

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Old
10-27-2012, 12:57 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by PeterForsberg View Post
Most people who vote him first are probably Sen fans.
Most people who vote him last have never seen him play, or are Leafs, Habs, Kings, Blues, and Preds fans.

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Old
10-27-2012, 01:05 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burf View Post
I like that Karlsson is leading in both first place votes and third place votes. Apparently you either love him or hate him, and there isn't much middle ground
I think its more a case of Doughty and Pie being so close that there is no room between them for Karlsson. You either see Karlsson as better then them or worse

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10-27-2012, 01:12 PM
  #140
Jack Donaghy
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
No shame in coming ahead either; the other half of the point he was making.
That didn't seem like any point being made. Regardless, this is one of the better threads of this lockout.

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Old
10-27-2012, 01:32 PM
  #141
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First it was "Who will be better: Karlsson, Carlson or MDZ?"

Then it was "Who will be better: Karlsson, Subban, Schenn?"

Now it's between Karlsson, Chara, Weber, Doughty, Petro and Karlsson was the one who came away with the Norris. So that's my pick.

Had Karlsson gotten 40 points and played flawless defense and someone else had gotten 80 points and played "good enough" defensively. Karlsson wouldn't have won the Norris. That guy who got 80 would have. You put a name to the achievement and his reputation follows him. Karlsson wasn't great defensively his first two season and he didn't have the numbers to back it up. However last season, we all saw major improvements in his play defensively. The haters are obviously all gonna nitpick and look for the smallest things. Of course he bound to make mistakes in his game. Majority of the time, it wont end up in a goal. In fact, more often then not, when Karlsson makes risky plays, the puck ends up in the other team's net.

I think they're all tier-1 when it comes to young defensemen. But I'll take Karlsson, his offense is just too much better. While the other two are better defensively, I don't think I they're that much better to the point where they make up for Karlsson's offensive superiority.

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10-27-2012, 01:49 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
Doughty is every bit as talented offensively as Karlsson....
I really don't know if this is overrating Doughty or underrating Karlsson. You could give a handful of arguments to why Doughty is better than Karlsson. However, this line is just plain stupid. Doughty isn't on Karlsson's level offensively and Karlsson is more talented in that regard.

Quote:
Difference between Doughty and Karlsson is that Doughty has adapted the very same raw offensive skills and transitioned them into defensive play, as well. I don't understand what's wrong with asking your young, offensively talented defenseman to play some D. It won the Kings a Cup. What has "letting your players off their leashes" done for Ottawa?
Please. This post is becoming a joke. There's nothing wrong with it. If you actually watched Karlsson play last year, you'd realize there was very few times he actually ditched defense to play offense. He got most of his points through his vision and IQ. Karlsson was fine defensively and put up the offense, too.

And your "it won the Kings a Cup" statement would be relevant if hockey wasn't played by a team. Your statement implies that Doughty single-handily won the Kings a Cup. Did he? Of course not. It's a team effort.

You can't even compare the Kings situation to the Sens situation. Before the season started the Kings were predicted by a lot of people to go the distance and win the Cup. Before the season started the Sens were predicted to get a lottery pick.

Quote:
And so what, Karlsson has more regular season points? Really? Have you seen Doughty's points-per-game in the postseason? Please tell me more about Karlsson's extensive playoff success. willywonka.jpg
Yep, a 32 game sample size! That certainly taught me!

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Old
10-27-2012, 03:31 PM
  #143
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Karlsson
Pietrangelo

Doughty

At least for the moment. I really liked Doughty's game in the playoffs. If he can keep it up, then I'd have him ranked higher.

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10-27-2012, 03:53 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterForsberg View Post
Most people who vote him first are probably Sen fans.
Just like the voters for the Norris trophy, amirite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
Karlsson is NOT vastly superior offensively. He plays in a different conference and a different role on his team. As I mentioned in a previous thread, he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.
You wasted a whole post of about, i dunno, 5 minutes of useless **** because you contradicted yourself in what seems to be your main argument. So sad.. it really is. You could have done something else more productive or said something that is true.

If you watched Karlsson play last year, you wouldn't have made this post, lmfao. He played some of his best hockey against the Western Conference last year. Looooooooooooooool. It's alright kid, get back up there; but first, watch some games.

in 18 games against the Western conference Karlsson got 13 points. One of my fav games last year was of Karlsson shutting down San Jose's top line and scoring a back-breaking goal.

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Old
10-27-2012, 05:26 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burf View Post
I like that Karlsson is leading in both first place votes and third place votes. Apparently you either love him or hate him, and there isn't much middle ground
Let's let the stats do the talking, shall we?

1st place votes:

Karlsson - 108
Pietrangelo - 73
Doughty - 83

2nd place votes:

Karlsson - 61
Pietrangelo - 107
Doughty - 96

3rd place votes:

Karlsson - 84
Pietrangelo - 84
Doughty - 85

So, what you're actually seeing is that Karlsson is the overwhelming favorite, Pietrangelo is the most popular 2nd place contender, and all three are about the same in terms of 3rd place votes.

If the vote splitting phenomenon were significant, I'd expect to see a lot more Karlsson 3rd place votes. People "hate" Karlsson just as much as they "hate" Doughty or Pietrangelo.


Last edited by NyQuil: 10-27-2012 at 05:32 PM.
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Old
10-27-2012, 05:58 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by PeterForsberg View Post
Most people who vote him first are probably Sen fans.
Sens fans have been dead on regarding Karlsson for several years now. Hell, more right than they even thought they'd be.

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10-27-2012, 06:07 PM
  #147
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Doughty

Karlsson

Pietrangelo


Was very tough to decide

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10-27-2012, 06:08 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Sens fans have been dead on regarding Karlsson for several years now. Hell, more right than they even thought they'd be.
I was lurking earlier in the season when the Karlsson for Norris threads starting popping up. Everyone thought Ottawa fans were crazy. Even they were a little sheepish about Karlsson's chances.

Then Karlsson got on an absolute tear shortly after the midway point... people started getting mad. I'll call this Eternal February where HF conversation started becoming saturated with Karlsson talk.

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Old
10-27-2012, 07:50 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Twilight Sparkle View Post
I was lurking earlier in the season when the Karlsson for Norris threads starting popping up. Everyone thought Ottawa fans were crazy. Even they were a little sheepish about Karlsson's chances.

Then Karlsson got on an absolute tear shortly after the midway point... people started getting mad. I'll call this Eternal February where HF conversation started becoming saturated with Karlsson talk.
We were actually providing good arguments but not many see him enough to recognize that. Speaking for myself, I made a thread when he was starting to touch the 70 point pace saying that if he hit that mark he'd have a great chance, but that odds were his production would increase. At that time, he had the leagues lowest shooting percentage at 1.2 percent, he was right around top 5 in the league in SOG as well.

What happened after? In the second half of the season he scored on a 35 goal pace prorated for 82 games and went onto put up 78 points.

People like to look at the numbers, and so do we of course because they do speak for themselves. But what makes those numbers possible is how much he has the puck and how he much he puts the puck on net. Those abilities aren't likely to go anywhere and although there will be fluctuations in his point totals, statistically he didn't exactly get lucky in terms of above average shooting percetange or playing on a top team.

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Old
10-27-2012, 08:08 PM
  #150
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Pdk.

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