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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-28-2012, 10:54 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Karlsson has had great playoffs success, he just hasn't been on a stacked team.
Well no not really, he's had as much playoff success as Doughty pre 2012 which was none. And Doughty was probably the most or 2nd most importnat player on the Kings, even above Jonathan Quick

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10-28-2012, 11:09 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I'm right 100 percent don't know what to tell you
So you believe your 100% right, yet then you write this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Doughty, who has had two somewhat dissapointing regular seasons following an awesome sophomore year. But honestly the Kings had to go through a pretty ridiculous phase. So we are hopeful that under Sutter he will "return" to 60 point form
You can hope and pray that Doughty will return to his level of play two years ago, but beyond other Kings fans you cant honestly expect anyone to take your opinion seriously about him being as good offensively as Karlsson is right now, can you?

FWIW I believe Doughy will get back to 50-60pt form. But what you dont understand is that a 50-60pt Drew Doughty is still not as good offensively as a 70-80pt Erik Karlsson. And right now, we're only talking about Drew hypothetically getting back there because he has been a 30-40pt guy for two seasons, so until he does its a moot point.

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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
FWIW I don't think Doughty is on the same level as Karlsson is at the moment. Karlsson still needs to show his 78 pt season wasn't a fluke, but at the moment he's the best offensive defenseman in the league, Doughty's playoffs notwithstanding.
This is what I believe the majority of intelligent hockey fans who've seen both will say based on what has happened so far. Until Karlsson takes a step back (he's no fluke, 45pts in 75gp in 2010-11, which coincidentally is better than Drew's second best season), or Drew takes a step up, its Karlsson for now.


Last edited by Samsquanch: 10-28-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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10-28-2012, 11:11 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Well no not really, he's had as much playoff success as Doughty pre 2012 which was none. And Doughty was probably the most or 2nd most importnat player on the Kings, even above Jonathan Quick
Ask Kings in fans in any thread involving one of their guys, and they were the reason the Kings won. Kopitar, Quick, Doughty, Brown. You name it, and they're the reason they won it!

And Richards and Carter never even get a nod. That team was so ****ing stacked it was silly.


Last edited by Samsquanch: 10-28-2012 at 11:28 PM.
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10-28-2012, 11:33 PM
  #179
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Well this is about as close as possible...

If you were to give three points for a first place vote, two for a 2nd, and 1 for a third; these would be the totals

Karlsson 609
Pietrangelo 600
Doughty 591

I voted Pietrangelo-Karlsson-Doughty for the record

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10-28-2012, 11:35 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Wow I didn't know this was a character assassination thread. Doughty is a kind of player you pay 1 million more than Karlsson because he brings that much more to the ice. And it is admitted that his regular season play is not up to the caliber that Karlsson has displayed in a shorter career, if you are going to go by the Norris record and points alone. But Doughty by all metrics has had significant success in the playoffs, whereas Karlsson has not done this yet
Whether Kings fans like to admit it or not, character does matter and it does matter when comparing players. Sens fans could tell you this as we've had our share of character issues with some players in the past.

Doughty isn't the type of player you pay more than one million to. He may be more well-rounded, but that doesn't mean he's worth more. A general rule is that offense is valued more in a player than defense. That's why players with high offensive talent have more value than stay-at-home, shutdown, defensemen. At this point, you can't argue that Doughty is really close to Karlsson's offensive level. One put up 78 points while the other didn't even break 40.

Doughty had more success in the playoffs. I'll admit that, and I'm sure every single person would. But at the same time, Karlsson hasn't ever had an opportunity to play in the playoffs with an above average team. Last years Sens were expected to be a lottery team. The Kings were expected to challenge for the Cup. I'm not taking anything away from Doughty or the Kings. I'm just saying that Karlsson hasn't been able to show what he can do over a lengthy playoff run yet.

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10-29-2012, 12:30 AM
  #181
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Okay this needs to be said so Sens fans will acknowledge this. That year could still be a fluke

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10-29-2012, 12:31 AM
  #182
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I don't think I'll ever understand how people can say that a 1st pairing defenseman who played against top lines on a regular basis, who was +16 on a team with a +4 goal differential at ES and who put up 78 points, won the Norris, and was the main factor for turning the consensus worst team in the league into a playoff team, isn't currently the best defenseman in the NHL.

Even typing it now it blows my mind.

EDIT: For reference, Doughty was -2 on a -8 team and scored 36 points, Pietrangelo a +16 on a +39 team and scored 51 points. I mean...come on.

I understand points aren't everything, and some people for whatever reason don't think he deserved the Norris, but honestly, do you have ANY idea how bad you'd have to be defensively to erode a 25 point lead on the next highest scoring defenseman? Wouldn't you imagine this would be reflected in his +/- differential?

My problem with people who pick Peto or Doughty in this poll is that if you're doing so you have a false view on how bad Karlsson is defensively: it's really as simple as that.

They are both fantastic defenseman; no one would say otherwise because it's true. But if you think Karlsson is 25 points worse than Doughty or Pietrangelo defensively, or you're somehow of the opinion that getting to play with Spezza, Michalek, Greening, Alfredsson, Turris, Condra is such an advantage over Kopitar, Carter, Richards, Williams, Brown, Gagne or Backes, Perron, Oshie, Steen, Berglund, and Sobotka; then I really don't know what to tell you other than it's impossible for me to see eye-to-eye with you on that issue.

I get it if people are saying they doubt Karlsson can replicate his season (though I certainly believe he'll be in the same ballpark on more than one occasion, especially as he gets to play with a better defensive partner and our forward corpus becomes less lottery-like) but to say that Doughty or Pietrangelo are better than him now?

I don't get it.


Last edited by Sureves: 10-29-2012 at 12:39 AM.
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10-29-2012, 12:34 AM
  #183
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Voted Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty because I have a huge man-crush on Piets. Karlsson is amazing though.

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10-29-2012, 12:39 AM
  #184
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FWIW Byfuglien was on pace for 30 more points than Doughty. Doesn't mean he's better than Doughty.

I still went Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty, though.

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10-29-2012, 01:18 AM
  #185
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ill take the guys that play the PK so karlsson on the bottom.

and dont give me this theyre saving his energy BS

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10-29-2012, 01:25 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
ill take the guys that play the PK so karlsson on the bottom.

and dont give me this theyre saving his energy BS
I take the guy thats best at ES, which is most important. Being one way pony in PK or PP is less important. That is the reason why i think Karlsson was amazing this year because he dominated in ES, unlike many other highscoring defencemen ( Lidström, Vish, etc) who only got points on PP.

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10-29-2012, 01:32 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
The correct answer is Piet-Doughty-Karlsson

The question ask "Who is the best defenseman"

One would have to kill penalties to be the best defenseman would he not?
Show this man his prize.

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10-29-2012, 01:35 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
ill take the guys that play the PK so karlsson on the bottom.

and dont give me this theyre saving his energy BS
I'll take the defenseman that makes the most positive overall impact and that's Karlsson

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10-29-2012, 01:36 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Okay this needs to be said so Sens fans will acknowledge this. That year could still be a fluke
i dont know if fluke is the right term. I certainly could see it as karlsson's career year when all is said and done (though historically 22 is a bit young for peak offensive production), but this isnt like he's going to suddenly become a 40pt dman in the future. 35pt pace as a rookie, 50pt pace as a sophmore, 79pt pace last year.

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10-29-2012, 01:54 AM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Okay this needs to be said so Sens fans will acknowledge this. That year could still be a fluke
Maybe Doughty's playoff performance was a fluke due to being on a stacked team that could have won without him?

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10-29-2012, 01:58 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Maybe Doughty's playoff performance was a fluke due to being on a stacked team that could have won without him?
come on you are reaching here dude. the people who saw the games know whats up

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10-29-2012, 02:16 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
come on you are reaching here dude. the people who saw the games know whats up
Same thing could be said for Karlsson and his Norris season.

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10-29-2012, 02:55 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Maybe Doughty's playoff performance was a fluke due to being on a stacked team that could have won without him?
Nah hes been beastly for 3 consecutive playoff years aswell as the olympics. Guy just plays his best in high pressure situations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
And Karlsson had a bad bunch of sticks in the middle of the year and had a 1.2 shooting percentage in December (from then on he went on a 35 goal pace). Excuses are excuses. Slow starts do not equal the difference between 42 points.
The fact that the Kings shot 6.2% with Doughty on the ice whereas the Sens shot 9.5% with Karlsson on the ice sure helps that 42 point difference though.*

Doughty ran really really really really bad to crush advanced stats all season long like he did and only score 30 points. Not his fault goalies were godmoding the Kings all year long.

If you swap the on ice shooting %'s for them, shock, Doughty would have outscored Karlsson.

In before people think shooting % that far below the average is a result of lack of skill and not luck


*not to mention the hilariously large difference in PDO between both. Doughty having a stupidly low PDO of 986 and Karlsson having a high 1013


Last edited by Muzzinga: 10-29-2012 at 03:06 AM.
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Old
10-29-2012, 03:25 AM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Same thing could be said for Karlsson and his Norris season.
The way I look at it, you are facing a bad teams about half the team in the regular season. In the playoffs by definition you are playing the top 8/15ths of the league

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10-29-2012, 03:53 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
The way I look at it, you are facing a bad teams about half the team in the regular season. In the playoffs by definition you are playing the top 8/15ths of the league
Then how did Doughty manage to only get 36 points in the season when he plays bad teams half the time?

Also, Salvador =< Doughty because 1 playoffs > everything else.

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10-29-2012, 06:18 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
ill take the guys that play the PK so karlsson on the bottom.

and dont give me this theyre saving his energy BS
Meh doughty,chara,weber ,pie and maybe soon OEL can fight amungst each other on, who is the best two way defender is.The best offensive guy is EK and he can outscore all of them ,to make up the only major differense between all those i have listed against EK, which is SIZE in the defensive zone.

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10-29-2012, 06:54 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Silfverberg View Post
I'll take the one with the Norris trophy.
I'll take the one with a Stanley Cup ring and an Olympic gold medal.


Edit: Oh and a Norris nomination.

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10-29-2012, 07:05 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Oh Snap View Post
I'll take the one with a Stanley Cup ring and an Olympic gold medal.


Edit: Oh and a Norris nomination.
Thats good because out off all the two way guys Doughty is the most complete.

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10-29-2012, 07:35 AM
  #199
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I'll take the one with a Stanley Cup ring and an Olympic gold medal.


Edit: Oh and a Norris nomination.
Me too. Everyone with a cup ring is better than everyone without one.

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10-29-2012, 08:32 AM
  #200
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Me too. Everyone with a cup ring is better than everyone without one.
Yeah, I thought we made that clear in the Lundqvist vs Quick thread?

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