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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-29-2012, 10:14 AM
  #201
Minister of Offence
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Okay this needs to be said so Sens fans will acknowledge this. That year could still be a fluke
Does this apply to Alex as well? I wouldn't because when I watched Pietrangelo you could tell he was an outstanding player and would be going forward, does that mean he will score 60 next year? No. But I'm sure based on his play last year he's capable of it. But if that's the case, I'd be foolish to say Karlsson couldn't do 80+ in a given season.

You know if a player of non-elite skill put up elite points in a year, I'd say this. Especially if he played on a team that scored a ton, or played with other elite players for the first time in his career, etc.

But Karlsson's the one making the Sens score more. He's the one running the puck for half the game, at top 5 in the league in shots at one point. The points will fluctuate but his ability to create offensive opportunities and an offensive environment for his team is unlikely to go anywhere. He's the best Dman in the game at doing this. And the best Dman in doing this could be expected to lead Dmen in points in any given season.

I'm sure we'll be told we were all wrong about Karlsson if he only scores 62 points now, but that wouldn't be fair. Points aren't always a fair evaluation of how a player impacts the game. He put up the points last year because putting as many pucks on net and controlling the puck as much as he did is conducive to production...but like I said, it'll fluctuate based on various factors. But lets not assume that he benefited from something like an above average shooting percentage individually or team because he did not. He spent the first half of his season shooting 1.2%.


Last edited by Minister of Offence: 10-29-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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Old
10-29-2012, 10:35 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
He spent the first half of his season shooting 1.2%.
He had like 4 goals by January or something.

He hit posts all over the place.

Ended up with 19.

In before people say 1.2% is par for the course for Erik Karlsson.

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Old
10-29-2012, 11:04 AM
  #203
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Looks like sens fans have done a decent job slapping some common sense into people so that i don't have to and i can get back to studying. Good work.

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10-29-2012, 11:11 AM
  #204
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Results sums this up. Too close to call

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10-29-2012, 11:28 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Show this man his prize.


Karlsson no real Dman!!! He no play PK!!

But seriously, its a good thing the Norris voters arent so simple minded and have actually observed the guys their voting on play.

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10-29-2012, 11:30 AM
  #206
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Went with Drew>Alex>Erik but it wouldn't completely surprise me if Pietrangelo becomes the best defenseman down the road. Karlsson would have to score 120 points for me to overlook his defensive deficiencies and consider him the best.
and what would it take for you to watch hockey outside your market?

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10-29-2012, 12:02 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
The fact that the Kings shot 6.2% with Doughty on the ice whereas the Sens shot 9.5% with Karlsson on the ice sure helps that 42 point difference though.*

Doughty ran really really really really bad to crush advanced stats all season long like he did and only score 30 points. Not his fault goalies were godmoding the Kings all year long.

If you swap the on ice shooting %'s for them, shock, Doughty would have outscored Karlsson.

In before people think shooting % that far below the average is a result of lack of skill and not luck
Actually, if you kept all else the same, Karlsson would likely remain ahead of Doughty.

Doughty was on the ice for 29.6 shots per game (ES), so at 77 games about 2397 shots total. He got a point on 19% of all LA's ES goals (23 ES pts / 121 ES goals for LA). Adjusting his teams shoting % to 9.58 would yield 229 goals total, and 19% of that would be about 44 pts.

Karlsson was on the ice for 31.7 shots per game (ES), so at 81 games about 2568 shots total. He got a point on 29% of all OTT's ES goals (50 ES pts / 172 ES goals for OTT). Adjusting his teams shoting % to 6.2 would yield 159 goals total, and 29% of that would be about 46 pts

Quote:
*not to mention the hilariously large difference in PDO between both. Doughty having a stupidly low PDO of 986 and Karlsson having a high 1013
Just so you know, PDO is on ice sv% + on ice sh% x 1000, so for doughty, .924 + .062 = 986 and for Karlsson .917+.0958 = 1012.8, so by saying Doughty suffered a low on ice Sh% but he also had a bad PDO, your basically saying the same thing twice.

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10-29-2012, 12:12 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
The fact that the Kings shot 6.2% with Doughty on the ice whereas the Sens shot 9.5% with Karlsson on the ice sure helps that 42 point difference though.*

Doughty ran really really really really bad to crush advanced stats all season long like he did and only score 30 points. Not his fault goalies were godmoding the Kings all year long.

If you swap the on ice shooting %'s for them, shock, Doughty would have outscored Karlsson.

In before people think shooting % that far below the average is a result of lack of skill and not luck
It should be no surprise, to anybody, that when Karlsson is on the ice the Sens score at a good pace. If you've watched him for five+ games (which I doubt a lot of people have) you'd see that. He creates offense out of nothing.

Using excuses such as "goalies were godmoding the Kings all year" is weak. Karlsson, against those same goalies, had a better pace than Doughty.

As for those saying that Karlsson's year could be a fluke. It definitely could be. But so could Doughty's playoffs and Pietrangelo's season last year. Seeing a big double standard in this thread - like usual.

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10-29-2012, 12:22 PM
  #209
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Also Karlsson starts 60+ % of the time in the offensive role, meanwhile Doughty starts 60%+ in the defensive zone.
Ottawa was 24th in GA. They were basically all offense zero defense team in the regular season. And once the playoff started and a team shut their PP down they went to golf course like usually the Capitals did.

Also career both were 2008 draftees:
Regular season:
Doughty 316GP 43G 119A 162Pts +14
Karlsson 216GP 37G 112A 149Pts -19

Playoffs:
Doughty 32 GP 9G 18A 27Pts +6
Karlsson 13GP 2G 5A 7Pts -4

Doughty: WJC gold medal (Best defensman of the tournament), Olympic Gold medal, Stanley Cup, Norris trophy nomination
Karlsson:Norris trophy win


Last edited by Minor Boarding: 10-29-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old
10-29-2012, 12:24 PM
  #210
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Doughty so good, dem intangibles, doughty ainec le stanely cup. Karlsson no d 4th forward hurr durr fluke norris dumb voters!

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Old
10-29-2012, 12:31 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
Also Karlsson starts 60+ % of the time in the offensive role, meanwhile Doughty starts 60%+ in the defensive zone.
Ottawa was 24th in GA. They were basically all offense zero defense team in the regular season. And once the playoff started and a team shut their PP down they went to golf course like usually the Capitals did.
The PP was shut down??? and thats the reason the Sens lost in game 7 to the Rangers??? Wow great insite on that series.

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10-29-2012, 12:42 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
Also Karlsson starts 60+ % of the time in the offensive role, meanwhile Doughty starts 60%+ in the defensive zone.
Ottawa was 24th in GA. They were basically all offense zero defense team in the regular season. And once the playoff started and a team shut their PP down they went to golf course like usually the Capitals did.

Also career both were 2008 draftees:
Regular season:
Doughty 316GP 43G 119A 162Pts +14
Karlsson 216GP 37G 112A 149Pts -19

Playoffs:
Doughty 32 GP 9G 18A 27Pts +6
Karlsson 13GP 2G 5A 7Pts -4

Doughty: WJC gold medal (Best defensman of the tournament), Olympic Gold medal, Stanley Cup, Norris trophy nomination
Karlsson:Norris trophy win
Karlssons was the best dman in 09, just for your info.

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10-29-2012, 01:04 PM
  #213
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Doughty only played in WJC 08 - won the award for best defenseman.
Karlsson only played in WJC 09 - won the award for best defenseman.
Pietrangelo played in WJC 09 and 10 - won the award for best defenseman in 2010.

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10-29-2012, 01:17 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
It should be no surprise, to anybody, that when Karlsson is on the ice the Sens score at a good pace. If you've watched him for five+ games (which I doubt a lot of people have) you'd see that. He creates offense out of nothing.

Using excuses such as "goalies were godmoding the Kings all year" is weak. Karlsson, against those same goalies, had a better pace than Doughty.

As for those saying that Karlsson's year could be a fluke. It definitely could be. But so could Doughty's playoffs and Pietrangelo's season last year. Seeing a big double standard in this thread - like usual.
Im not taking anything away from Karlsson. I expect the Senators to score at an above average pace with him on the ice because he is such an offensive talent. I was just giving a reason for Doughty's scoring to be so low, that being the low shooting %. With Doughty's offensive talent, you would expect the Kings to score at above average with him on the ice aswell (which they usually do)

Pie ran about average last year, so you would expect him to repeat that performance year after year of about 50 points, Doughty you would expect to not run so bad and improve up to the mid 40 point range, and Karlsson you would expect to run slightly worse but not much and score in the high 60's. Unless the Sens start using him more in defensive situations, in which case around 50 points would be expected

If you look at some advanced stats, you would see goalies really were godmoding the Kings until the trade deadline (Goalies were averaging something like a .94 s% vs the Kings until game 60 ish)

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10-29-2012, 01:28 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Actually, if you kept all else the same, Karlsson would likely remain ahead of Doughty.

Doughty was on the ice for 29.6 shots per game (ES), so at 77 games about 2397 shots total. He got a point on 19% of all LA's ES goals (23 ES pts / 121 ES goals for LA). Adjusting his teams shoting % to 9.58 would yield 229 goals total, and 19% of that would be about 44 pts.

Karlsson was on the ice for 31.7 shots per game (ES), so at 81 games about 2568 shots total. He got a point on 29% of all OTT's ES goals (50 ES pts / 172 ES goals for OTT). Adjusting his teams shoting % to 6.2 would yield 159 goals total, and 29% of that would be about 46 pts
good work

My bad for assuming that Doughty would have outscored him instead of actually working it out

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Old
10-29-2012, 02:54 PM
  #216
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Columbus only finished last because goalies godmoded against them.

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10-29-2012, 03:59 PM
  #217
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Also if it needs to be said, the Western conference is significantly better defensively than the East.

Let's see Doughty play with the top-4 that LA has now. It will make a huge difference, first time the Kings have had a legitimate offensive (top-10 in the league) top-6

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10-29-2012, 04:11 PM
  #218
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Doughty vs Karlsson
=


VS



=


IT'S A MATTER OF TASTE

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10-29-2012, 04:31 PM
  #219
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I think the post above me gets it. When you watch Karlsson move through the neutral zone, he has a way with spacing and getting himself in the right place that is truly amazing. I don't think anyone in the NHL is like this or has been for a while, as evidenced by having had the best offensive performance by a dman in a long, long time. I rank it above Green's 30 goal season.

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Old
10-29-2012, 05:03 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I think the post above me gets it. When you watch Karlsson move through the neutral zone, he has a way with spacing and getting himself in the right place that is truly amazing. I don't think anyone in the NHL is like this or has been for a while, as evidenced by having had the best offensive performance by a dman in a long, long time. I rank it above Green's 30 goal season.
Quality observation. Rarely see people talk about it but it's bang on.

There's no one more dangerous in the league from the fringe of the offensive zone all the way back to goal line. And the faster you move in the offensive direction the tougher you are to handle, and no one does it faster than him. He improves team speed like no other. Something to be said for a player that makes his teammates better by making the team faster.

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10-29-2012, 07:21 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
Also Karlsson starts 60+ % of the time in the offensive role, meanwhile Doughty starts 60%+ in the defensive zone.
Ottawa was 24th in GA. They were basically all offense zero defense team in the regular season. And once the playoff started and a team shut their PP down they went to golf course like usually the Capitals did.

Also career both were 2008 draftees:
Regular season:
Doughty 316GP 43G 119A 162Pts +14
Karlsson 216GP 37G 112A 149Pts -19

Playoffs:
Doughty 32 GP 9G 18A 27Pts +6
Karlsson 13GP 2G 5A 7Pts -4

Doughty: WJC gold medal (Best defensman of the tournament), Olympic Gold medal, Stanley Cup, Norris trophy nomination
Karlsson:Norris trophy win
So much wrong here

Karlsson starts 57.1% of his shifts in the offensive zone not 60%+
Doughty started 50.8% of his shifts in the offensive zone not less than 40%

The Sens powerplay did not get shut down in the playoffs. They were operating at 18.2% in the regular season and dropped down to 15.4% in the playoffs. Less than three percent. Hardly shutting it down.

In comparison the Kings powerplay operated at 17% in the regular season and it dropped to 12.8% during the playoffs. That's a lot closer to shutting down.

They went to the golf course because they simply weren't as good of a team as the Rangers. They took them to game seven when most people saw them done after the fourth or fifth game.

You're making up stats that take 30 seconds to search in Google.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 10-29-2012 at 07:24 PM. Reason: poster was told it was OK to repost without certain material.
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Old
10-29-2012, 08:03 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Also if it needs to be said, the Western conference is significantly better defensively than the East.

Let's see Doughty play with the top-4 that LA has now. It will make a huge difference, first time the Kings have had a legitimate offensive (top-10 in the league) top-6
If your premise is that a defenseman would score more if he played in the east than if he played in the west, I'm not certain the data supports your stance.

In fact, it seems that West coast defensemen scored about the same as the east coast counterparts. Defensemen in the east scored a total of 437 goals and 2226 pts in 7517 games for 0.058 goals per game and 0.296 pts. In the west, they scored 490 goals and 2168 pts in 7394 games for 0.066 goals/g and 0.293 pts. Not a huge difference, although the west did get a significant amount more goals from the back end. These numbers don't take into account trades though, so there is some noise introduced when a player is traded cross conference and all their games and pts are associated with the new conference.

You'd also expect there to be a significant change in production when a D-man is traded cross conference, but while its hard to tease out the other variables, I haven't noticed any significant trend among the more notable cross conference swaps,

For example;

Cambell's best season in the east was 53 pts in 82 games, and in the west its 52 in 82.
Boyle had 63 in 82 in the east and 58 in 76 in the west.
Carle had 42 in 77 with the sharks and 40 in 82 with Philly.
Erhoff had 50 in 79 with Vancouver followed up with 32 in 66 in Buffalo
Goligoski did see a drop when went west from 37 in 69 to 30 in 71 as did Bouwmeester when he went to Calgary (46 in 82 down to 29 in 82), but that can be countered with Liles plummeting from 46 in 76 with Colorado to 27 in 66 with the leafs.

My suspicion is that the defensive nature of the west coast teams leads coaches to employ systems that rely more heavily on the defense for offence; for example quick counter attacks scoring on the transition or taking more shots from the point and looking for deflections and rebounds. As a result, there seems to be little tangible evidence that a defenseman would score less in the west than in the east.

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10-29-2012, 08:29 PM
  #223
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Went Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Doughty. Could see an argument for Pietrangelo, Doughty, Karlsson. Either way I'm taking Pietrangelo first.

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10-29-2012, 09:49 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
Also Karlsson starts 60+ % of the time in the offensive role, meanwhile Doughty starts 60%+ in the defensive zone.
Ottawa was 24th in GA. They were basically all offense zero defense team in the regular season. And once the playoff started and a team shut their PP down they went to golf course like usually the Capitals did.

Also career both were 2008 draftees:
Regular season:
Doughty 316GP 43G 119A 162Pts +14
Karlsson 216GP 37G 112A 149Pts -19

Playoffs:
Doughty 32 GP 9G 18A 27Pts +6
Karlsson 13GP 2G 5A 7Pts -4

Doughty: WJC gold medal (Best defensman of the tournament), Olympic Gold medal, Stanley Cup, Norris trophy nomination
Karlsson:Norris trophy win
What Milan the Great said and

Karlsson = 78 points/249 Sens goals = 31.3%
Doughty = 36 points/194 Kings goals = 18.6%


LOL, huge difference. If Doughty had less points, but contributed the same percentage to his team's goals, I would agree, the Sens being offensive team would boost Karlsson's point totals. But Doughty isn't even close.



As for zone starts, Milan the Great touched on it. I'll add

Sens = 1238 offensive zone starts total 5-on-5, and 1042 defensive zone starts total 5-on-5. Which means 54.3% of their in zone faceoffs were in the offensive zone. Karlsson had 57.1% of his starts in the offensive zone, not that far off his team average.

Kings = 959 offensive zone starts total 5-on-5, and 909 defensive zone starts total 5-on-5. Which means 51.3% of their in zone faceoffs were in the offensive zone. Doughty had 50.8% of his starts in the offensive zone.


Offensive zone starts are being way blown out of proportion. Karlsson was not far off his team average. He is the reason the Sens had many offensive zone starts. Also, Karlsson started in the defensive zone much more than any Senator. He had 435 defensive zone starts, the next closest was Kuba with 359.

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:56 PM
  #225
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Am I the only one who laughs every time they see "(without a twist)" in the title?

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