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It's Not About Winning Or Losing. It's About Who Gets The Blame (CBA/Lockout) XVI

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Old
10-26-2012, 02:39 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by BowieSabresFan View Post
Capitulating on every major provision up for discussion is not best for their financial interests. They would have paid for that decision for the next several years, and not just the current megastars.

The proposal would not have won in a vote.
They would have been far better off than missing 1/4 or more of this season...

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10-26-2012, 02:39 PM
  #652
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Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Don Fehr Says NHL was only willing to negotiate make whole provision from last NHL proposal, everything else needed to stay as is Bill Daly tels me that claim is "absolutely, completely, unquivocally untrue

Who to believe here ?

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10-26-2012, 02:41 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Don Fehr Says NHL was only willing to negotiate make whole provision from last NHL proposal, everything else needed to stay as is Bill Daly tels me that claim is "absolutely, completely, unquivocally untrue

Who to believe here ?
First time I heard Daly deny the claim.

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10-26-2012, 02:41 PM
  #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Don Fehr Says NHL was only willing to negotiate make whole provision from last NHL proposal, everything else needed to stay as is Bill Daly tels me that claim is "absolutely, completely, unquivocally untrue

Who to believe here ?
I've read numerous times from the NHL, they were willing to discuss make whole and there was some "wiggle room" in other issues. Seemed like there was multiple grounds for a discussion.

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10-26-2012, 02:42 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Roland Gilead View Post
There you go. I hope that those, who write some crap from their own heads, read this comment before writing.
Theres a reason why we have two ears and one mouth.

I really wish people would shut up who dont know what the **** theyre talking about, but this in the internet. Anyone with access to a keyboard and computer, well...

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10-26-2012, 02:43 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by ChillyPalmer View Post
I know about Fehr, but I know even more about the NHL and Bettman.

I know they got everything they wanted last time around, and I agreed with them.

Now they're crying poor again? What happens 6 years from now?

Fool me once, yada yada yada. You know how it goes.
It is NOT that simple.

The basis of your argument is not faulty but it ignores a lot of issues which I won't list here or now (at work).
My main beef with the PA is not that they are trying to get the best deal, my problem is that the PA has done an awful job at getting talks going and the result is this: the owners are forced to lockout the players because they have no other option.

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10-26-2012, 02:44 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
First time I heard Daly deny the claim.
Daly clearly said that the wouldn't meet because the PA didn't want to discuss their whole CBA proposal AND DIDN'T HAVE A NEW ONE OF THEIR OWN TO DISCUSS.

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10-26-2012, 02:44 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by ChillyPalmer View Post
I know about Fehr, but I know even more about the NHL and Bettman.

I know they got everything they wanted last time around, and I agreed with them.

Now they're crying poor again? What happens 6 years from now?

Fool me once, yada yada yada. You know how it goes.
No, they didn't get everything they wanted last time. You think they wanted to expand the players revenue share to 57%? Lower the UFA age? Have no limit on contract lengths? They compromised on areas in order to get the hard salary cap.

And if he players are concerned about being hard lined, having to give back again next lockout, then why are they the ones offering up shorter CBA's?

And the whole 'but they just signed them over the summer, it's not fair to ask them to give some of it back' argument is weak. GMs were acting to improve their team, under the current system. If Minnesota didn't sign Parise and Suter to huge deals, some other team would have. liepold did what he thought he had to do in order to improve his team, under the set of rules in place. The owners are simply now saying that those rules currently favour the players too much and need to be changed. But they can only be changed with agreement with the NHLPA, otherwise it's collusion.

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10-26-2012, 02:45 PM
  #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Don Fehr Says NHL was only willing to negotiate make whole provision from last NHL proposal, everything else needed to stay as is Bill Daly tels me that claim is "absolutely, completely, unquivocally untrue

Who to believe here ?
Daly easily

The league has been consistent in their message whereas the PA has been flopping all over the place.

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10-26-2012, 02:45 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Don Fehr Says NHL was only willing to negotiate make whole provision from last NHL proposal, everything else needed to stay as is Bill Daly tels me that claim is "absolutely, completely, unquivocally untrue

Who to believe here ?
Well they aren't even that far apart in the smaller issues. 1 UFA year isn't going to hold up a deal, max contract length isn't going to hold up a deal. Daly has said they would listen to a phase in program.

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10-26-2012, 02:46 PM
  #661
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Fehr knows what he's doing. He didn't want to negotiate. He wanted to posture his desire to negotiate. I read what the NHL said last Friday. It was obvious they wanted a very different proposal coming from the PA, but they never said take it or leave it to all their terms. They wanted linkage. They wanted 50-50, although negotiating "make whole" basically means they were willing to negotiate the whole $600M in dollars that separated the two sides. And they said they would do tweaks, which sounds to me like adjust the UFA age up or down, etc.

Fehr is just spinning PR so he can hold out and try to remake the sport in his image. If you think he's been sincere about anything this whole time, you're a sucker.

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10-26-2012, 02:46 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
First time I heard Daly deny the claim.
Same, I think this is some revisionist history going on. If this was not the case, Daly/Bettman would have been screaming this through twitter a couple of weeks ago.

In fact, I remember that Bettman explicitly said that he could not compromise on other issues because there were "owners who felt he gave too much already."

Funny that Daly makes those comments after the deadline has passed. Its a bunch of nonsense.

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10-26-2012, 02:46 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
First time I heard Daly deny the claim.
Daly has been saying all week that they were open to tweaks in everything. What he has said is the PA made it clear that the entire thing was unacceptable and thus, what's the point in talking if they have no new offer and find all the contract issues completely unacceptable?

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10-26-2012, 02:47 PM
  #664
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The NHL probably wants a written proposal from the NHLPA that is a true counterproposal to the NHL's offer, with each point addressed either in agreement, opposition, or modification.

Like the 24% rollback that originated from the NHLPA last time and then tucked into Bettman's pocket as a keepsake, the NHLPA counterproposal would contain some concessions that the NHL would frame and hang on their wall.

DF probably knows this, and is thus unwilling to issue a true counterproposal, and is probably going to stick with napkin proposals that don't contain anything that can come back to haunt him.

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10-26-2012, 02:47 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Same, I think this is some revisionist history going on. If this was not the case, Daly/Bettman would have been screaming this through twitter a couple of weeks ago.

In fact, I remember that Bettman explicitly said that he could not compromise on other issues because there were "owners who felt he gave too much already."

Funny that Daly makes those comments after the deadline has passed. Its a bunch of nonsense.
Daly said the other parts were open to 'tweaks' all week.

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10-26-2012, 02:49 PM
  #666
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Fehr is backtracking now, it's pathetic. This guy is a total sap.

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10-26-2012, 02:49 PM
  #667
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Well they aren't even that far apart in the smaller issues. 1 UFA year isn't going to hold up a deal, max contract length isn't going to hold up a deal. Daly has said they would listen to a phase in program.
Max contract length may be a big topic considering how much upfront money players can get with them

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10-26-2012, 02:51 PM
  #668
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Here is my question. If the NHL was open to tweaks in other areas and open to discussions around the "make whole" provision, why the hell did the NHL mandate no preconditions? Seemed like there was a lot to discuss rather than the PA just accepting the entire framework.

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10-26-2012, 02:51 PM
  #669
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They're not far apart, yet a whole month of games just got cancelled and they weren't even meeting this week.

So funny!

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10-26-2012, 02:51 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Rooverick View Post
Daly clearly said that the wouldn't meet because the PA didn't want to discuss their whole CBA proposal AND DIDN'T HAVE A NEW ONE OF THEIR OWN TO DISCUSS.
Yep. If it was really just about he contract issues, actually make a true counter proposal within the NHL's framework (see: linked cap, 50-50 fairly soon) but have your counter proposals for the contract issues.

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10-26-2012, 02:51 PM
  #671
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
First time I heard Daly deny the claim.
http://www.tsn.ca/winnipeg/

Radio interview on the right.

He clarified this several days ago. Basically the only thing NHL refuses to budge on is linkage.

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10-26-2012, 02:52 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
The NHL probably wants a written proposal from the NHLPA that is a true counterproposal to the NHL's offer, with each point addressed either in agreement, opposition, or modification.

Like the 24% rollback that originated from the NHLPA last time and then tucked into Bettman's pocket as a keepsake, the NHLPA counterproposal would contain some concessions that the NHL would frame and hang on their wall.

DF probably knows this, and is thus unwilling to issue a true counterproposal, and is probably going to stick with napkin proposals that don't contain anything that can come back to haunt him.
With this line of thinking, the PA will never propose anything substantial and a deal will never be reached.

You can't lose if you don't play, I guess.

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10-26-2012, 02:52 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Same, I think this is some revisionist history going on. If this was not the case, Daly/Bettman would have been screaming this through twitter a couple of weeks ago.

In fact, I remember that Bettman explicitly said that he could not compromise on other issues because there were "owners who felt he gave too much already."

Funny that Daly makes those comments after the deadline has passed. Its a bunch of nonsense.
Not necessarilly. Neither Daly nor Bettman are the type to go screaming to the media.

Daly was up front with the NHL's willingness to "wiggle" the day they made their proposal, and his tune did not change until the offer was taken off the table.

Fehr's move of not even discussing the NHL's offer, but instead coming up with three or four of the PA's own was a warning sign as well.

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10-26-2012, 02:54 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
No, they didn't get everything they wanted last time. You think they wanted to expand the players revenue share to 57%? Lower the UFA age? Have no limit on contract lengths? They compromised on areas in order to get the hard salary cap.

And if he players are concerned about being hard lined, having to give back again next lockout, then why are they the ones offering up shorter CBA's?

And the whole 'but they just signed them over the summer, it's not fair to ask them to give some of it back' argument is weak. GMs were acting to improve their team, under the current system. If Minnesota didn't sign Parise and Suter to huge deals, some other team would have. liepold did what he thought he had to do in order to improve his team, under the set of rules in place. The owners are simply now saying that those rules currently favour the players too much and need to be changed. But they can only be changed with agreement with the NHLPA, otherwise it's collusion.
They got the cap, they got the rollbacks. Everything else was a courtesy.

I agree with a 50-50 split, I think it should happen gradually, but if it happens right away, contracts should be honored. You can't cry poor during record profits.

If they did it to improve their team, excellent. But then don't be a ****ing hypocrite and say this is killing the league, that it's wrong, and that you want money back. You signed a contract, honor it.

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10-26-2012, 02:54 PM
  #675
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Yeah really, Daly making those comments AFTER the deadline passed and the cancellation announcement was made should tell you everything you need to know.

But Fehr is also backtracking like crazy.

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