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It's Not About Winning Or Losing. It's About Who Gets The Blame (CBA/Lockout) XVI

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Old
10-26-2012, 08:55 PM
  #826
amjay13
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Hopefully Barch gets booed in every arena he plays in this year. What a fool.

Blow the damn league up. What an embarassment. I never thought I'd be able to walk away from following the NHL but it is becoming a real possibility. Plenty of other entertainment options out there that will willingly take my cash.

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Old
10-26-2012, 08:56 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Seriously, Barch? Stop with this idiotic "woe, is me" act. You are one of the lowest paid NHLers in the league and, yet, you still make more than fifteen times that of the average person. You can make these bogus "1/2" or "3/4" claims but, at the end of the day, the average NHL player is paid more than FIFTY times that of the posters on this board.... the kind of cash that enables a person to "sit there smoking the same brand of cigar, sipping the same cognac, and going on vacation".

You're a spoiled brat. You can fight for your earnings. It's your right. But don't insult the intelligence of the fans by crying about your struggle to "feed your family".
Put yourself in his shoes. What would you think if your boss was asking you to take a 20% pay cut ?

The amount of money he makes/made does not invalidate his opinion.

You could use the same reasoning to say something like: People who don't make above 50K a year shouldn't vote .

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10-26-2012, 09:02 PM
  #828
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It doesn't invalidate his opinion, but he still looks like a joke for crying about how a human being might eventually have to get a job.

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10-26-2012, 09:03 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by Haj View Post
Put yourself in his shoes. What would you think if your boss was asking you to take a 20% pay cut ?

The amount of money he makes/made does not invalidate his opinion.

You could use the same reasoning to say something like: People who don't make above 50K a year shouldn't vote .
I'd consider it in light of the fact that the median team is losing money; the average team makes FAR less profit than any other reasonable investment; if the league contracts, I'll probably be among the first players fired; no other major sports league spends nearly as much of its revenues on players; and with rising revenues, my salary is almost certain to, in fact, rise over the course of the CBA. And I'd shut my damn mouth, sign up and play. Just because I'm being asked to take a cut doesn't mean I'm being treated unfairly. The fact that the league would prefer to shut down than continue paying me what it was probably indicates (just in addition to all of the above) that I was overpaid before.

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10-26-2012, 09:05 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
The end game for the players should be to accept a 50-50 split, but try to improve the escrow side of things as much as possible.

But they need to accept 50-50 and they need to understand they can't do the "you'll get to 50-50 ... maybe ... by the last year of the CBA". That's not flying.

What they should actually focus on IMO is getting the NHL to ease the restrictions on contract lengths and front loading that were present in the NHL's deal.

This is effectively like a "luxury tax" for rich teams, IMO if the NHL owners are getting the 50-50 split they want, they will give on these issues, the PA should push on that front.
Absolutely. I wish some of the recently retired players would call some of the older, more reasonable current players and explain that to them. The players have the chance to come out of this as the good guys.

Then everyone can go back to hating Bettman, and he'll announce his retirement after he gets even more maliciously booed when he steps onto the ice to hand over the cup to the team that wins to end "the season that the players saved".

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10-26-2012, 09:08 PM
  #831
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@TEAM1040: RT @chriskuc: NHLPA's Donald Fehr said he has "regular, on-going communication" with NHL. "There was today." No formal discussions planned

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10-26-2012, 09:09 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
The fact that Barch thinks having to get a job after hockey at all is a hideous fate is disgusting to me. He's lucky to be making as much as he is now. He gets flown across North America on private jets, gets top notch medical care, etc. etc. etc. and the thought that he might at some point have to work, at all, doing anything, is too much for him. Talk about entitled.
I'm always shocked to read these statements. He wasn't born rich, what makes you think he didn't work hard to get where he is? If it was easy, why aren't you doing it?

They have a very particular set of skills, and are compensated as such. You think the owners fly them on private jets because they love them? They want them to get to games as fast as possible, and be healthy so they can get their moneys worth.

People love capitalism and the free market, except for pro athletes, they make tooooooo much money.

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10-26-2012, 09:11 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
It doesn't invalidate his opinion, but he still looks like a joke for crying about how a human being might eventually have to get a job.
Yes, that one interpretation.

What he said verbatim was this:

I wonder if the owners of Boston, New York, Washington, etc, etc, have endured any of the injuries that I or any other player in the NHL have endured. Still they probably sit their smoking the same brand of cigar, sipping the same cognac, and going on vacation. To one of five houses they own. While we sit here knowing they want to take 20% of our paychecks. One half to 3/4 of my peers will have to work for the next 50 years of their lives.

My interpretation is that he is trying to show the difference between how rich an owner is vs. how rich most of the players are. I don't think he is trying to deride people who have a "normal" job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I'd consider it in light of the fact that the median team is losing money; the average team makes FAR less profit than any other reasonable investment; if the league contracts, I'll probably be among the first players fired; no other major sports league spends nearly as much of its revenues on players; and with rising revenues, my salary is almost certain to, in fact, rise over the course of the CBA. And I'd shut my damn mouth, sign up and play. Just because I'm being asked to take a cut doesn't mean I'm being treated unfairly. The fact that the league would prefer to shut down than continue paying me what it was probably indicates (just in addition to all of the above) that I was overpaid before.
I agree with you. That is a very high level and rational view of the situation, but its easy to think that way when its not you.

I think what happens is that the players accept linkage to HRR, but the owners have to move on how long it takes for a player to get to free agency, entry level deals, arbitration.

I don't know what you do to current contracts to get down to a 50/50 split. I'm just a simple country engineer.

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10-26-2012, 09:12 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by ChillyPalmer View Post
I'm always shocked to read these statements. He wasn't born rich, what makes you think he didn't work hard to get where he is? If it was easy, why aren't you doing it?

They have a very particular set of skills, and are compensated as such. You think the owners fly them on private jets because they love them? They want them to get to games as fast as possible, and be healthy so they can get their moneys worth.

People love capitalism and the free market, except for pro athletes, they make tooooooo much money.

Quit being petty and jealous.
Simply put: if the NHL would prefer to shut its doors than continue to pay him what he was paid, then he is overpaid. And his whining about having to take a cut inspires negative sympathy. Nothing petty or jealous about it. If he doesn't want people to judge him, he doesn't have to go posting his whining rant in the news.

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10-26-2012, 09:13 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
@TEAM1040: RT @chriskuc: NHLPA's Donald Fehr said he has "regular, on-going communication" with NHL. "There was today." No formal discussions planned
In a war to see who blinks first, the best case scenario is that both sides blink at the same time. Hopefully thats discussed behind the scenes.

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Old
10-26-2012, 09:15 PM
  #836
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Ryan Suter weighs in:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...ntracts-afford

Suter is now wondering if those huge contracts were negotiated in good faith.

"From what's going on right now? Yes. Definitely," Suter told ESPN The Magazine. "I haven't done any interviews. I haven't said anything, but yeah, it's disappointing that the owners, they sign all these guys and some guys were signed within the last week before the CBA was up. Now, they're trying to go back on their word. It's frustrating, disappointing. It doesn't seem like that's the way you operate a relationship or business."

"It's disappointing. If you can't afford to (sign contracts) then you shouldn't do it," Suter said. "(Leipold) signed us to contracts. At the time he said everything was fine. Yeah, it's disappointing. A couple months before, everything is fine, and now they want to take money out of our contracts that we already signed."

As part of their identical contracts, both Suter and Parise received $10 million signing bonuses that were protected from the lockout.

He's in Chicago to participate in a charity game between the members of the 2010 Chicago Blackhawks and All-Stars to raise money for the Ronald McDonald House.

He said hanging out with the players before the charity game and getting ready to play in front of fans are just reminders of what the players are missing.

"We're close to November," Suter said. "Why can't we get something done? I know we're willing to negotiate. We've always been willing. You just need someone to talk to."

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10-26-2012, 09:16 PM
  #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChillyPalmer View Post
I'm always shocked to read these statements. He wasn't born rich, what makes you think he didn't work hard to get where he is? If it was easy, why aren't you doing it?

They have a very particular set of skills, and are compensated as such. You think the owners fly them on private jets because they love them? They want them to get to games as fast as possible, and be healthy so they can get their moneys worth.

People love capitalism and the free market, except for pro athletes, they make tooooooo much money.

Quit being petty and jealous.
I think your missing the point. People here are not angry at the fact that he makes a lot of money, or that he is fighting for that money. People are angry at him because he is complaining on twitter about it to people who have much bigger problems. The players can carry on with this labor negotiation however they want. I just ask that they do so quietly because I, like most fans, will not pick a side here.

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10-26-2012, 09:20 PM
  #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Ryan Suter weighs in:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...ntracts-afford

Suter is now wondering if those huge contracts were negotiated in good faith.

"From what's going on right now? Yes. Definitely," Suter told ESPN The Magazine. "I haven't done any interviews. I haven't said anything, but yeah, it's disappointing that the owners, they sign all these guys and some guys were signed within the last week before the CBA was up. Now, they're trying to go back on their word. It's frustrating, disappointing. It doesn't seem like that's the way you operate a relationship or business."

"It's disappointing. If you can't afford to (sign contracts) then you shouldn't do it," Suter said. "(Leipold) signed us to contracts. At the time he said everything was fine. Yeah, it's disappointing. A couple months before, everything is fine, and now they want to take money out of our contracts that we already signed."

As part of their identical contracts, both Suter and Parise received $10 million signing bonuses that were protected from the lockout.

He's in Chicago to participate in a charity game between the members of the 2010 Chicago Blackhawks and All-Stars to raise money for the Ronald McDonald House.

He said hanging out with the players before the charity game and getting ready to play in front of fans are just reminders of what the players are missing.

"We're close to November," Suter said. "Why can't we get something done? I know we're willing to negotiate. We've always been willing. You just need someone to talk to."
Sorry if I'm not caught up with all the new negotiations, but I don't believe I remember a salary roll back being agreed upon or presented by either party? All the talk has been is how to divvy up the revenue, which I presume would be where the players figure they'll "lose money". But that's revenue moving forward. So really, all that would change is the salary cap, no? Or is there a salary roll back tied directly to any revenue share change?

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10-26-2012, 09:21 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Haj View Post
Put yourself in his shoes. What would you think if your boss was asking you to take a 20% pay cut ?

The amount of money he makes/made does not invalidate his opinion.

You could use the same reasoning to say something like: People who don't make above 50K a year shouldn't vote .
Put ourselves in his shoes? Okay, well, in most jobs annual pay increases are cost of living, so 3%. Sometimes, you have a good job, maybe your salary goes up 10%. Maybe you're lucky and have a job that pays a bonus when the company makes gobs of profits.

Pay increases of 400%, annual increases based on revenue, not profit? These things I don't understand and can't wrap my head around. However, if I was getting paid like that for 8 yrs strait, with ridiculously high increases in salary, and my boss came to me and said costs have increased, we need a reduction of 12%, I'd think long and hard about it.

What people seem to forget is that outside of player salaries, 2 of the largest player related costs to teams are health care, and travel expenses. Please use the google and see how much travel costs (fuel) and health care have increased in price since 2005. They are 2 of the highest, if not the 2 highest sectors seeing price increases, all of which comes out of owners share, while still paying 57% of revenues for salaries.

Anyways, I'm not pro player or pro owner, but the put yourself in his shoes analogy is pretty abstract to a person seeing annual salary bumps of 3% and probably living paycheck to paycheck. Of course a 20% reduction would be devastating. Wheres the 20% number even from?

PS: the economy almost fell of a cliff in 2007-2009. People were losing there houses. People were taking massive paycuts everywhere. Not hockey players though, while everyone elses salaries and net worth's were nosediving, players salaries were going UP. How can we possibly put ourselves in there shoes? We cant.


Last edited by DocBrown: 10-26-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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10-26-2012, 09:21 PM
  #840
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The owners should make an offer where they pay contracts in full, then split the revenues 50-50, and the difference is made up by the players paying for everything (flights, meals, equipment, hotels, insurance, medical bills, ice time...).

Players get their contracts paid in full, like they want, and they get to play hockey, like they want. Win win.

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10-26-2012, 09:22 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by averyrule View Post
I think your missing the point. People here are not angry at the fact that he makes a lot of money, or that he is fighting for that money. People are angry at him because he is complaining on twitter about it to people who have much bigger problems. The players can carry on with this labor negotiation however they want. I just ask that they do so quietly because I, like most fans, will not pick a side here.
What point am I missing? I was quoting a specific person, making a specific point.

I agree btw. I'm sure he was or is getting heckled, and responded recklessly.

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10-26-2012, 09:28 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Ryan Suter weighs in:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...ntracts-afford

Suter is now wondering if those huge contracts were negotiated in good faith.

"From what's going on right now? Yes. Definitely," Suter told ESPN The Magazine. "I haven't done any interviews. I haven't said anything, but yeah, it's disappointing that the owners, they sign all these guys and some guys were signed within the last week before the CBA was up. Now, they're trying to go back on their word. It's frustrating, disappointing. It doesn't seem like that's the way you operate a relationship or business."

"It's disappointing. If you can't afford to (sign contracts) then you shouldn't do it," Suter said. "(Leipold) signed us to contracts. At the time he said everything was fine. Yeah, it's disappointing. A couple months before, everything is fine, and now they want to take money out of our contracts that we already signed."

As part of their identical contracts, both Suter and Parise received $10 million signing bonuses that were protected from the lockout.

He's in Chicago to participate in a charity game between the members of the 2010 Chicago Blackhawks and All-Stars to raise money for the Ronald McDonald House.

He said hanging out with the players before the charity game and getting ready to play in front of fans are just reminders of what the players are missing.

"We're close to November," Suter said. "Why can't we get something done? I know we're willing to negotiate. We've always been willing. You just need someone to talk to."
I don't know which part of this is the biggest lie, and it's just becoming ridiculously clear that these players don't have the analytical capacity to understand what each side is putting forward and how good a deal they've been offered already. These people should not be unionized, for their own good.

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10-26-2012, 09:31 PM
  #843
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That was in interesting point from the first day on when those many contracts before the end of the old CBA were signed. I think that Suter is making a good point. To me that wasn't negotiation in good faith if the owners thought on the big contracts: 'oh well, why not 5 million more, we'll roll them back anyways' ...

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10-26-2012, 09:32 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
Hopefully Barch gets booed in every arena he plays in this year. What a fool.

Not everyone is on the HFBoards Business of Hockey subforum, so I highly doubt that. This represents a fraction of the actual fans out there (NHL fans, yes, I know, ha ha ha).

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10-26-2012, 09:33 PM
  #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Ryan Suter weighs in:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...ntracts-afford

Suter is now wondering if those huge contracts were negotiated in good faith.

"From what's going on right now? Yes. Definitely," Suter told ESPN The Magazine. "I haven't done any interviews. I haven't said anything, but yeah, it's disappointing that the owners, they sign all these guys and some guys were signed within the last week before the CBA was up. Now, they're trying to go back on their word. It's frustrating, disappointing. It doesn't seem like that's the way you operate a relationship or business."

"It's disappointing. If you can't afford to (sign contracts) then you shouldn't do it," Suter said. "(Leipold) signed us to contracts. At the time he said everything was fine. Yeah, it's disappointing. A couple months before, everything is fine, and now they want to take money out of our contracts that we already signed."

As part of their identical contracts, both Suter and Parise received $10 million signing bonuses that were protected from the lockout.

He's in Chicago to participate in a charity game between the members of the 2010 Chicago Blackhawks and All-Stars to raise money for the Ronald McDonald House.

He said hanging out with the players before the charity game and getting ready to play in front of fans are just reminders of what the players are missing.

"We're close to November," Suter said. "Why can't we get something done? I know we're willing to negotiate. We've always been willing. You just need someone to talk to."
Is he really that stupid ?

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10-26-2012, 09:33 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by averyrule View Post
I think your missing the point. People here are not angry at the fact that he makes a lot of money, or that he is fighting for that money. People are angry at him because he is complaining on twitter about it to people who have much bigger problems. The players can carry on with this labor negotiation however they want. I just ask that they do so quietly because I, like most fans, will not pick a side here.
He's voicing thoughts on something major that is going on in his life and from his perspective his view is totally reasonable. Nobody should be offended by it.

We all have our problems. You can't never complain just because there are bigger tragedies elsewhere in the world.

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10-26-2012, 09:35 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I don't know which part of this is the biggest lie, and it's just becoming ridiculously clear that these players don't have the analytical capacity to understand what each side is putting forward and how good a deal they've been offered already. These people should not be unionized, for their own good.
So direct your ire at Fehr.

I actually think theres a good amount of players that are unsure about the entire thing and just want to play hockey, but in fear of being "that guy" are afraid to speak up against Fehr.

Sounds like ********, sure, but its completely plausible.

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10-26-2012, 09:35 PM
  #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haj View Post
Put yourself in his shoes. What would you think if your boss was asking you to take a 20% pay cut ?

The amount of money he makes/made does not invalidate his opinion.

You could use the same reasoning to say something like: People who don't make above 50K a year shouldn't vote .

Well he and the NHLPA just willfully took a 26% cut in pay this year.

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10-26-2012, 09:37 PM
  #849
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In big business, the ones with the money always win. The NHL is big business. Players may be millionaires, but when you're dealing with billionaires you are always going to lose. That isn't to say that there shouldn't be concessions made on part of the owners towards the players, though. If it is indeed a battle of who is willing to blink first, the players can hold out but eventually they will lose. The longer they hold out, the less willing owners are going to be to give them concessions.

I get the feeling that Fehr is going to re-open the 2004 can-o-worms with the cap, though. Him and the NHLPA seem to want to re-fight the 2004-05 battle.

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10-26-2012, 09:40 PM
  #850
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I get the feeling that Fehr is going to re-open the 2004 can-o-worms with the cap, though. Him and the NHLPA seem to want to re-fight the 2004-05 battle.
I agree here.

People can say the PA is after a moneygrab all they want, and I wouldnt say theyre entirely wrong for it, especially with idiots like Barch and Roy, but collectively, to the players I think its more than just money. Theyre fighting over 2004-05.

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