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It's Not About Winning Or Losing. It's About Who Gets The Blame (CBA/Lockout) XVI

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Old
10-27-2012, 12:56 AM
  #876
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
His much more expensive Ferrari you mean!
His Tweet's even better and more ironic when you consider that his owner encouraged him to get offseason surgery that he previously was going to skip, allowing him to collect a paycheck during the lockout.

Those greedy owners.

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10-27-2012, 01:21 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Right conclusion, wrong reasoning.

How much money each individual has to live on is totally irrelevant. Almost everybody at the table will never have to work again if they don't want to.

What's relevant is how much money each side loses by cancelling games. NHL makes $120M/year, net. Players makes $1.9B/year.

If the NHL made money off the game, they'd be saying let's get back on the ice, even if we have to pay a little bit more than we think is right! But they don't. So they're willing to cancel games almost indefinitely - makes no difference to them, they're not losing anything that gave them anything substantial. Put it this way: the difference between the last two offers made was ~$500M, for all five years. The players almost certainly lost that much when November was cancelled, meaning even if the NHL comes and takes their last offer tomorrow, they've already screwed themselves out of money. The NHL owners, on the other hand, would have to cancel 4 consecutive seasons before they would screw themselves out of $500M.

Which side do you think will crack first? The side losing $500M in 25 games, or the side making $500M in four years?
TSN rolled the numbers. With an calculation of 50%, they have lost $360M if the November cancellation stands. That aside, excellent post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
This notion is wrong. Many players will be in financial trouble with one lost season, let alone never working again.

These players aren't very smart with their money. You give any 20 year old 5 million dollars and he doesn't put it in the bank. He buys his parents a new house, himself a new house and new car and all his buddies new iPhones.

You should watch ESPNs 30 for 30 "Broke".
To be fair, that is more toward the player's potential incompetency. The statement, in its most general sense, is accurate. Any player, in theory, will never have to work another day in their life, provided they do not piss away their fortune.

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10-27-2012, 01:32 AM
  #878
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Gold from fehr.


http://m.washingtontimes.com/blog/ca...nald-fehr-cha/

ROSEMONT, Ill. | Donald Fehr spoke to a few members of the media Friday night at AllState Arena during the first intermission of the Champs for Charity exhibition hockey game.

Fehr spoke to The Washington Times, ESPN The Magazine, The Associated Press, The Chicago Sun-Times, Comcast SportsNet Chicago, The Chicago Tribune and The Daily Herald. Here is the full transcript:

On cancellation of November games

“Nothing they've done over the past several weeks is very much of a surprise. One thing sort of follows another; it looks like more or less what's been done in the other disputes in the other sports. It's a shame, I think. And hopefully we'll finally get down to serious negotiations one of these days. But we're not there yet.”

What will it take to get to serious negotiations?

“Somebody has to be willing to talk about things seriously. So far, the league's position is essentially, we got billions of dollars from the players last time, and we've had nothing but record revenues ever since, so let's try go and get another billion or two. And that's hard. It's really hard to do. I'll just ask all of you: What is the articulated reason the concessions are being asked for. Except, well, this is what happened in basketball. OK, so? Or the other one is, we want an opportunity for everybody to make a fair profit. What's a fair profit? Who's not making it and if that's the issue, why is the proposal to lower salaries on Toronto at the same time you do it on Phoenix?”

Talk to these guys in Chicago?

“There was a lunch meeting with maybe two-thirds of them today.”

Message to them?

“First of all, I never talk about internal communications with players. Never have, so I'm not going to do it now. They can, it's up to them. But I work for them, not the other way around. The second thing is, what I did was to update them on what happened in negotiations, what it was like to be in meetings, what we expect to happen next. There were a couple players there who had been in the meetings. They added their own perspective and their own observations. And then we discussed what's going to happen going forward. The only thing I'll say about the conversation is that I repeatedly get asked: What is there in the NHL's offer which moves in our direction? And my problem is all I can do is shrug my shoulders. Because I don't know what it is.”

Understanding that NHL only wants you to come to table to work off its deal?

“That was what it has been the last 10 days. Maybe it'll change. We've offered to meet repeatedly without preconditions. Happy to talk about their proposals, but that's not the only thing.”

Don't anticipate making your own offer?

“The last three were made by us. But that doesn't mean that if we have another brilliant idea, we're going to keep quiet. We won't. Nobody stands on ceremony on our side of the table.”

Could this turn into another '04-05 and miss whole season?

“I hope that's premature discussion, and we certainly hope it isn't true. As a personal matter, I don't see any reason for it. But I didn't see a reason to begin to talk about a lockout last January. And I didn't see a reason to make a proposal off the bat for another 24 percent in salary reductions or any of the rest of it. But I didn't see a reason for the NFL to lock out its officials, either.”

Will there come a time when players have to push for deal?

“I don't discuss that. From the players' standpoint, two things. One, if you want to know what players think, you need to ask players. They speak for themselves. Secondly, what players want is a fair deal, an equitable deal. One that they can believe is even-handed and can set the stage for the future so we don't have to go through this every few years. It's enough already.

If Winter Classic is canceled – how does that change things?

“It reinforces the notion that the NHL isn't interested in the money. I hope they don't do it.”

How do you think fans are feeling right now?

“I'm sure that the fans look at it on two different levels. At the initial level, they're frustrated. They want to watch, they want to go, they want to root. They identify with the players, and that's something that everybody wants to continue. On a secondary basis, depending on the level of interest that an individual fan has and the level of knowledge, they may have an opinion on the specifics of the dispute. I think there's a general understanding out there that this is about the NHL owners insisting on concessionary bargaining. But beyond that I think it's a fan-by-fan basis and a market-by-market basis. Clearly they're going to be frustrated, clearly they're going to be upset. And I just hope we can get it done so that frustration ends as soon as possible.”

NHL working on its own timeline?

“I hope that's not the case, but that's consistent with what they've done. If you look at the NBA negotiations, the NBA owners made moves and how they initially asked for much more massive concessions than the eventual deal was and so on, it's pretty easy to construct that argument. But I don't speak for them. You can ask Gary that.”

Artificial cancellation like artificial deadlines?

“First of all, all the deadlines that have been imposed have been NHL-imposed. As we said at the beginning, we never saw a reason for a lockout to start with. Keep negotiating and a lockout ought to be treated the way players treat the strike, which is an absolute last resort. Not a bargaining tactic of first resort, which is what it was here and what it was in basketball and what it was in football and what it was with the football officials. And that's the first thing. Secondly, all I can tell you is that when a deal is reached, we hope both sides make the maximum effort to put back together the largest number of games that are physically possible to do, consistent with the logistics of that and player safety.

Chance of 82 games out?

“I don't know. I don't know. I would like to believe not, but we've got a contract to negotiate first. That's the second question, not the first one.”

Talk to NHL tomorrow?

“We talk to them regularly. There's regular, ongoing communication. There was today.”

Formal schedule?

“Not yet.”

More contentious?

“It depends on the day. They're professional negotiators and so are we. It depends on the day. Sometimes you get heated moments in which voices are raised and all the rest of it. Other times you don't. But you can have very civil, formally polite negotiations which, nevertheless don't go anywhere.”

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10-27-2012, 01:41 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
Gold from fehr.


http://m.washingtontimes.com/blog/ca...nald-fehr-cha/

ROSEMONT, Ill. | Donald Fehr spoke to a few members of the media Friday night at AllState Arena during the first intermission of the Champs for Charity exhibition hockey game.

Fehr spoke to The Washington Times, ESPN The Magazine, The Associated Press, The Chicago Sun-Times, Comcast SportsNet Chicago, The Chicago Tribune and The Daily Herald. Here is the full transcript:

On cancellation of November games

“Nothing they've done over the past several weeks is very much of a surprise. One thing sort of follows another; blah, blah, blah”
Is this guy serious? Is he that delusional? The players actually listen to the crap this guy spews? This guy is leading the players down a path they definitely shouldn't be taking. Yeah, the Gretzky of Union bosses.

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10-27-2012, 02:08 AM
  #880
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Sigh...

Do you know how tiresome that "play while negotiating" spiel is? We all know they would do exactly what the NHL is doing with a lockout. I am also tired of Fehr's nonsense claims his three proposals were worth the paper they were written on. You did not even do the math on one.

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10-27-2012, 02:42 AM
  #881
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More doom and gloom today. Probably wont see any more movement for another week or two. Critical point being the week before Thanksgiving. After that we lose the Winter Classic.

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10-27-2012, 02:42 AM
  #882
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Lock the two jerks in a room for a week and force them to make a decision. If they can't then use a mediator or arbitrator to determine the new CBA like they do for player contracts. If they don't like the outcome tough beans.

Damn I just woke up ...

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10-27-2012, 03:22 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Ryan Suter weighs in:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...ntracts-afford

Suter is now wondering if those huge contracts were negotiated in good faith.

"From what's going on right now? Yes. Definitely," Suter told ESPN The Magazine. "I haven't done any interviews. I haven't said anything, but yeah, it's disappointing that the owners, they sign all these guys and some guys were signed within the last week before the CBA was up. Now, they're trying to go back on their word. It's frustrating, disappointing. It doesn't seem like that's the way you operate a relationship or business."

"It's disappointing. If you can't afford to (sign contracts) then you shouldn't do it," Suter said. "(Leipold) signed us to contracts. At the time he said everything was fine. Yeah, it's disappointing. A couple months before, everything is fine, and now they want to take money out of our contracts that we already signed."
Thing about this is, Leipold's on the 4man committee. He knew damn well they were about to barter the contracts down, either via escrow or, if they could get it, rollback, even if, say, Ray Shero was in the dark about what would happen when he inked Sidney Crosby to an extension (the Penguins don't seem to be involved in this process barely at all, which local reporters have been lamenting, as if they'd make a difference).

Suter's right. Leipold negotiated in bad faith (and it's not the first time, either. You'll remember how he kept trying to move the predators unless more corporations bought box seats or public funding...then the team got sold and the new ownership didn't seem to know those needs existed). He signed a deal then spent two months trying to backdoor in a flat rollback.

Leipold's a deplorable, dishonest cheapskate; which is something Suter should have factored in when he only wanted to play in teams close to farms, or whatever dumb factor he put ahead of not signing a deal with a crook.

But, for God's sake man; it's not time to be pouting about Leipold trying to play you. It's time to buy a copy of quicken and realize you're getting farther away from your signed deal by holding out than Gary actually wants to take away via escrow, which, by year 4, is less than you guys have been paying per year over the course of the last deal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Are you talking about his tweet talking about a fair deal for the players that came after he posted a picture of his porsche?
Good. That's the type of thing that makes the far more populous "guys for whom a ferrari is impractical" start questioning if it's worth foregoing paychecks to preserve an undersized, oft-injured, second-line center's ability to buy an idiot car on a whim.

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10-27-2012, 03:33 AM
  #884
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It's a bit funny. When Suter signed. I think we heard that there were even bigger offers. And I remember some said that it was not all about money, but the whole package. Friends came together etc etc.

But now suddenly. It is all about money. Why he didn't take that rumoured bigger offer then? Maybe it was made in good faith?

Everyone knew this beforehand. It was a part of the reason why offers went so high. Players, agents, owners, even fans knew it. It's written in a deal. The end reusult depends on a current CBA. These rhetorics are just silly. Stop whining. Get the deal done. Period.

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10-27-2012, 03:49 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Thing about this is, Leipold's on the 4man committee. He knew damn well they were about to barter the contracts down, either via escrow or, if they could get it, rollback, even if, say, Ray Shero was in the dark about what would happen when he inked Sidney Crosby to an extension (the Penguins don't seem to be involved in this process barely at all, which local reporters have been lamenting, as if they'd make a difference).

Suter's right. Leipold negotiated in bad faith (and it's not the first time, either. You'll remember how he kept trying to move the predators unless more corporations bought box seats or public funding...then the team got sold and the new ownership didn't seem to know those needs existed). He signed a deal then spent two months trying to backdoor in a flat rollback.

Leipold's a deplorable, dishonest cheapskate; which is something Suter should have factored in when he only wanted to play in teams close to farms, or whatever dumb factor he put ahead of not signing a deal with a crook.

But, for God's sake man; it's not time to be pouting about Leipold trying to play you. It's time to buy a copy of quicken and realize you're getting farther away from your signed deal by holding out than Gary actually wants to take away via escrow, which, by year 4, is less than you guys have been paying per year over the course of the last deal.
So that $25 million bonus Suter worked into his contract had nothing to do with him realizing the CBA is also a contract and could alter his future salary? This stance the players have is wholly disingenuous. They are well aware of the stipulations a CBA may impose, current or future. The victim act is frankly, irritating.

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10-27-2012, 05:30 AM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Haj View Post
Put yourself in his shoes. What would you think if your boss was asking you to take a 20% pay cut ?
If for the past 7 years he gave me raises which dwarfed the a huge amount the average raise in NA? If even after a 20% cut my average raise over the past 5 years dwarfed the rest of the countries? If he explained it was needed to stablize the business? If the business I worked for flirted with bankruptcy in the last 6 months?

Damn right I would. I know a good deal when I see it.

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10-27-2012, 05:52 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Fehr View Post
[...]Don't anticipate making your own offer?

The last three were made by us. But that doesn't mean that if we have another brilliant idea, we're going to keep quiet.[...]
son of a *****....

any pro-PA cheerleader want to defend this one?

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10-27-2012, 06:35 AM
  #888
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I love how Fehr reduces the salary cap argument to Toronto revenues versus Pheonix revenues. Way to frame reality. Most teams are writing cheques with red ink, you liar.

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10-27-2012, 06:44 AM
  #889
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R.Suter:
Quote:
"We're close to November," Suter said. "Why can't we get something done? I know we're willing to negotiate. We've always been willing. You just need someone to talk to."
LMAO

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10-27-2012, 06:49 AM
  #890
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Did players like Suter accept money in bad faith? Are they trying to make people think that they, and their agents, had no idea the CBA was expiring? Why accept any contract from any team? Was this CBA negotiation going to be easy? Is that why Donald Fehr was hired, to make it a simple process? Didn't the PA agree to raise the cap over the summer?

I'm guessing Fehr told them to raise the cap, so that owners would have spend more money, on top of whatever already stupid money has to be spend on free agents, fully knowing that the CBA would be contentious(with no help from Fehr), and then Fehr/players/agents could turn around and say the owners signed the deals in bad faith.

Way to go everyone You're all disingenuous idiots!

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10-27-2012, 07:22 AM
  #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi75 View Post
It's a bit funny. When Suter signed. I think we heard that there were even bigger offers. And I remember some said that it was not all about money, but the whole package. Friends came together etc etc.

But now suddenly. It is all about money. Why he didn't take that rumoured bigger offer then? Maybe it was made in good faith?

Everyone knew this beforehand. It was a part of the reason why offers went so high. Players, agents, owners, even fans knew it. It's written in a deal. The end reusult depends on a current CBA. These rhetorics are just silly. Stop whining. Get the deal done. Period.
Who cares? The bigger deal would have chopped down too. No matter what deal he took or where he took it...the new CBA is going to take a slice off the top. Once you realize the contracts are going down the same road one way or another, all the other factors he took to land in Minnesota, remain the same and he should be comfortable with his decision.

I understand about the players being pissed they just signed, and now the owners want some money back. But what really irritates me the most is the players acting like they didn't think this was a possibility. Did it ever occur to them that they signed them for such ridiculous numbers so that when there was a roll back, the players would be making appropriate money? Whatever. I'm tired of hearing them cry about how rich they are. They can all suck it.

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10-27-2012, 08:02 AM
  #892
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Ken Dryden weighs in and makes some really good points:

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New.../20311736.html

Much of what he says has already been covered here but, for me, it has some weight coming from him.

One of his main messages is that there is no reason to lose a season this time around. There is a deal if both sides avoid the win/lose mindset.

It did remind me of an old Star Trek (TNG) where Data learns to win by playing for the tie. Both sides have to change their mindset. They have to go from win/lose to win/win/win (Third win is the fans).

He also said that the players and owners are both financially better off than most fans and this should be a part of their thinking. We're losing jobs out here. Our incomes aren't going up. And there are players like Barch whining and moaning about losing a couple of hundred thousand.

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10-27-2012, 08:21 AM
  #893
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[QUOTE=Whydidijoin;55313617]A multi-billion dollar business making $100 million a year is not sustainable, especially when those profits come from a small number of divisions in that company, with many losing money.

In the real world, that leads to a bunch of jobs being cut. I doubt the NHLPA would like that.

Existing contracts are also not being cut. They always fluctuated, and they always were dependent on whatever CBA was in place at the time.

The players are not really accepting a smaller share. It is only a smaller share if the league grew at a rate that was unsustainable even before this mess. Basically, the NHLPA is only willing to accept a smaller share if that smaller share means a raise.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, but the PA has been continually talking about the concessions they are giving and how their proposals will help the league.....yadayadayada.

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10-27-2012, 08:25 AM
  #894
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It's absolutely mind-boggling to me that Krys Barch draws hate and vitriol, while most people on this thread have just given Leopold and Jacobs and the hard-liners a free pass. Really, Barch encapsulated this whole dispute in one sentence:

<<The lockout is a procedure to take from the players to pay for the NHL mistakes.>>

Leopold and Jacobs negotiate ludicrously irresponsible contracts over the summer, and then lock the players out so they can undo the damage of their stupidity, and people hate on Krys Barch?

Meanwhile, Bettman acts like a banana republic dictator (though that's probably unkind to banana republic dictators), saying that every dollar we once promised to pay you is now worth $0.76 cents (upped now to $0.88). Is there anything more contrary to the straight-shooting, no BS, look-you-in-the-eye culture of hockey than shaking hands on a deal and weeks later saying each dollar we promised is now worth around $0.80. Talk about a weasel. If the league's bargaining posture were a player, he would definitely be Alex Burrows or Brad Marchand.

And I don't agree that this sort of unilateral contract devaluation is OK because of escrow -- that's a true-up mechanism to adjust salary within mutually agreed upon revenue parameters. Bettman, Jacobs and Leopold want to unilaterally devalue the currency of the contracts they agreed to even though their own absurd offers recognized that (absent a self-imposed wound of a lockout by the owners) league revenues would continue to grow.

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10-27-2012, 08:41 AM
  #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
Who cares? The bigger deal would have chopped down too. No matter what deal he took or where he took it...the new CBA is going to take a slice off the top. Once you realize the contracts are going down the same road one way or another, all the other factors he took to land in Minnesota, remain the same and he should be comfortable with his decision.

I understand about the players being pissed they just signed, and now the owners want some money back. But what really irritates me the most is the players acting like they didn't think this was a possibility. Did it ever occur to them that they signed them for such ridiculous numbers so that when there was a roll back, the players would be making appropriate money? Whatever. I'm tired of hearing them cry about how rich they are. They can all suck it.
Yeah exactly. I was only trying to point out that it's irrelevant with whom he signed and who sits in the CBA negotiation table (Leipold). Just as you said.

Of course I'm very happy he signed with Wild. But this kind of rhetorics that players use now, is absurd. If I was one them, I would keep a low profile in the media and just negotiate to solve the problems.

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10-27-2012, 08:42 AM
  #896
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
Leopold and Jacobs negotiate ludicrously irresponsible contracts over the summer, and then lock the players out so they can undo the damage of their stupidity...
It takes two to tango. Players signed those contracts knowing what was coming down the pipe so everyone is dancing the same dance here.

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10-27-2012, 08:47 AM
  #897
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I want this clown off my team already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
It's absolutely mind-boggling to me that Krys Barch draws hate and vitriol, while most people on this thread have just given Leopold and Jacobs and the hard-liners a free pass. Really, Barch encapsulated this whole dispute in one sentence:

<<The lockout is a procedure to take from the players to pay for the NHL mistakes.>>

Leopold and Jacobs negotiate ludicrously irresponsible contracts over the summer, and then lock the players out so they can undo the damage of their stupidity, and people hate on Krys Barch?

Meanwhile, Bettman acts like a banana republic dictator (though that's probably unkind to banana republic dictators), saying that every dollar we once promised to pay you is now worth $0.76 cents (upped now to $0.88). Is there anything more contrary to the straight-shooting, no BS, look-you-in-the-eye culture of hockey than shaking hands on a deal and weeks later saying each dollar we promised is now worth around $0.80. Talk about a weasel. If the league's bargaining posture were a player, he would definitely be Alex Burrows or Brad Marchand.

And I don't agree that this sort of unilateral contract devaluation is OK because of escrow -- that's a true-up mechanism to adjust salary within mutually agreed upon revenue parameters. Bettman, Jacobs and Leopold want to unilaterally devalue the currency of the contracts they agreed to even though their own absurd offers recognized that (absent a self-imposed wound of a lockout by the owners) league revenues would continue to grow.
Barch should be trying to find a way to get back on the ice instead of pontificating about his lot in life. I think the reason he gets grief in this situation is that he boozes himself up, and then tries to tell a bunch of other people how they should feel about things - his situation included. If he were just telling you or me about his disappointment, then I think he has a more sympathetic stance.

I like the rest of your post, and it is precisely why I do not understand the players. It is what it is...businesses that I have worked for have done the same thing forever. IBM has made money forever. The years they do not make as much as they want - they go on a cost cutting rampage (including jobs). What part of this do the players not understand????

Get the beast deal you can - don't worry about the guys later, don't worry about the last deal, and don't lose anymore paychecks in a very short career. Sorry, but that is life in business, and this is a business.

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10-27-2012, 08:52 AM
  #898
W75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
It takes two to tango. Players signed those contracts knowing what was coming down the pipe so everyone is dancing the same dance here.
Yup. And the situation itself raised the prices. Their agents knew it and the players knew it. Also, all the deals were made with large signing bonuses, which were still paid no matter what. It was an insurance. And it proves that they knew the situation like someone said earlier.

All the sides were 100% on the map. And all tried to take advantage of it.

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10-27-2012, 08:57 AM
  #899
TCsmyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi75 View Post
Yup. And the situation itself raised the prices. Their agents knew it and the players knew it. Also, all the deals were made with large signing bonuses, which were still paid no matter what. It was an insurance. And it proves that they knew the situation like someone said earlier.

All the sides were 100% on the map. And all tried to take advantage of it.
Of course they all knew, and that is why it is disappointing when the NHLPA brings it up repeatedly in their propaganda spin as if somehow these big deals are hurtful to them.

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10-27-2012, 09:02 AM
  #900
wolffy66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
It takes two to tango. Players signed those contracts knowing what was coming down the pipe so everyone is dancing the same dance here.
And whats the point of saying " we are going to ask for a roll back on salaries so I better let the Pens(or whoever) sign this guy to the big contract"

Highly doubtful there was any chance of someone offering some contract where there a "no roll back" provision. The players need to use some logic here. Business had to go on as usual.

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