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It's Not About Winning Or Losing. It's About Who Gets The Blame (CBA/Lockout) XVI

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10-25-2012, 07:24 PM
  #176
Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
I'm not sure I would consider someone being willing to take a pay-cut but disputing the manner in which said cut would be administered to be greedy.
I don't see a whole lot of willingness to take a pay cut - not when they're whining about protecting the contracts they've signed.

Thanks for reminding me - they're whiney selfish greedy ignoramouses.

That's better.

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10-25-2012, 07:24 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
is it? Linkage/salary floor forces teams to lose money. That's a fact.
Nothing about an unlinked salary structure would do that
So your idea to solve the problem is bringing in a system that will reduce revenues.

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10-25-2012, 07:25 PM
  #178
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What can the owners offer the players in exchange for a 50/50 that doesn't potentially hurt the bottom line of their own team when competition resumes? I don't personally think there's anything the owners can offer which is why I want to hit my head against the wall every time the PA complains about all the changes the league is proposing yet the ONLY issue they ever bother to counter is the issue of HRR. You disagree with HRR and it doesn't stop you from countering the HRR issue, why can't you do the same with the other issues? I guess it sounds good when you bring up ALL of the things the league wants to change, but it only takes a moment to realize what a lame excuse that is when you haven't taken any initiative to discuss those things.

And if what Daly says is true, the players already have already gotten concessions in the form of upgraded comfort and travel (not sure how much more you can upgrade on that)as well as other services....yet the PA haven't mentioned any one of these requests they've made (and which have supposedly been approved).

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10-25-2012, 07:26 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I wonder if the PA has had time to "run the numbers" on that?
Well they have had plenty of time to do that. Especially since they spent a year stalling to even get to the negotiating table. Fehr must be very persuasive and I think the players are banking on him being able to pull his MLB magic. Sadly the circumstances are very different and he has sold them a bill of goods that is going to make what eventually happens to them even worse for them. Cannot say they don't deserve it, when you act like fools, you wind up looking like fools.

Next offer 53 (Owners)/47 (Players) and they won't care about how close the NHLPA gets to whole.

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10-25-2012, 07:28 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
- Maybe they should start flying coach instead of private first class. You know, go back to the good old days when they were taking flights at 4am.

- How about NOT giving them 100 bucks a day for food? (I know some lard ***** that wouldn't be able to spend that much on food in one day)

- How about they pay for their own 300 dollar hockey sticks?

- How about staying at the Comfort Inn instead of 5 star hotels?

- How about players buying memberships at the local gym instead of using the palaces (At Console for instance) that substitute for training facilities?

- How about they pay for their own massage therapists and trainers?
How many of these points are actually mandated by the CBA, and how many of them are club-specific "perks" aimed at attracting and retaining players?
I may be wrong, but:
- CBA: per-diem, equipment costs
- Club choice: Flights, Hotel, Gym, Trainers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a club thinks that it's in their best financial interest to cut costs by looking for cheaper alternatives in flights, hotel and player facilities then they are well within their rights to do so. However, cheaping out here will adversely impact a club's ability to attract free agents.

Non-player costs are just another arms race created by the cap. Before 2005 teams were allowed to spend whatever they wanted on player salaries. With the cap, excess funds that were previously budgeted towards salaries could now be applied to new and innovative ways of improving player performance and morale. Take the Canucks for example: They were one of the first teams to spend $$millions renovating the players' dressing room into a luxurious lounge.
Restricting the cap further will just increase the disparities between the rich and poor clubs in this regard.

Anyway, I'd love to see a breakdown of non-player costs by category if such a thing existed. HA!

PS. Per-diems are a tiny fraction of a club's operating budget. Assuming a 23-man roster and that half the 275-day season is spent on the road (an overestimate), per-diems costs a club under $325,000 a year.

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10-25-2012, 07:29 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Ollie Weeks View Post
It amazes me that these hockey players, who are trained practically from the womb on how to handle speaking to the media (by absolutely never presenting a firm opinion on anything), are en masse belligerantly texting, tweeting, and making bellicose statements to anyone who'll listen.

Have they not been TOLD by their PR handlers how bad they come off sounding? In a time when their collective reputation is being thrown into the pit with a horde of slighted hockey fans, NOW is the time they pick to grow personalities? Jesus Christ. If these guys stayed quiet and anonymous, or at least stuck to the non-committal pablum they usually run with, they wouldn't have nearly as large a target on them right now.
You can take 99.9% of the PA hating posters on here and put them in the player's shoes. If they grew up training for one thing, skipping school and sacrificing their bodies, they would have the same attitude. The players don't have a great deal of perspective and neither do we.

This kind of BS was going on during the NFL lockout and nobody remembers it.

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10-25-2012, 07:38 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by rockinghorse View Post
Talking about profit. I wonder whether ownership is taking a hard look at costs in other areas besides player salaries?

Are there dead wood staff salaries that are not pulling their weight.
Are there totally unnecessary positions that could be eliminated?
Are other staff salaries too high and need to be rolled back?
Is there duplication of work.
Are all expenditures monitored and necessary. I've worked in some places that order $5.00 pens when the .12 cents each one will do.

Could LEAN management processes be useful?
No, the players salaries are by the far the biggest cost.

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10-25-2012, 07:40 PM
  #183
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dont the players pay union due's? i had to....thre reason i ask is why cant the NHLPA fund travel,equipment,per deim,etc?.... (i know the answer)

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10-25-2012, 07:44 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
You can take 99.9% of the PA hating posters on here and put them in the player's shoes. If they grew up training for one thing, skipping school and sacrificing their bodies, they would have the same attitude. The players don't have a great deal of perspective and neither do we.

This kind of BS was going on during the NFL lockout and nobody remembers it.
In a society with unprecedented layoffs and salary cuts, do you think that those high school dropouts deserve 200 times the average salary of cops and firefighters who put their lives on the line every freaking day? What about the thousands of US military personnel who died in Iraq and A'stan? What about their tens of thousands brothers in arms that came back physically disabled?

No I guess not. Those people are heroes while the NHL players are easily replaceable by other hockey leagues or sports.

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10-25-2012, 07:48 PM
  #185
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winter classic will be cancelled too wooot!

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10-25-2012, 07:53 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
You can take 99.9% of the PA hating posters on here and put them in the player's shoes. If they grew up training for one thing, skipping school and sacrificing their bodies, they would have the same attitude. The players don't have a great deal of perspective and neither do we.

This kind of BS was going on during the NFL lockout and nobody remembers it.
Really lots of people in both Canada and USA have seen their pay cut significantly and pensions slashed. If I was a player with a four or five year shelf life I would be really angry at Fehr and the richest members of my membership holding my career hostage. Make no mistake the Ovechkin's and Crosby's of the NHL don't hurt the same way as the average NHL players association. I just don't understand how all these sports unions get the middle class (if you can call the guys near 1 million or just over that by that term) to sit around and taking a pounding.

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10-25-2012, 07:54 PM
  #187
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Isn't today the last day for an 82 game schedule?
Why hasn't the NHL announced the cuts yet?

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10-25-2012, 07:55 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by IanMoranFanclub View Post
So I wonder what's the chances the players end up firing Don Fehr before the end of all this? I can't imagine he's going to be willing to negotiate the kind of deal that is inevitably going to be reached.
This is a fear of mine as well. Fehr come across as the type of man who enjoys his reputation and I see no way he negotiates a deal that clearly undermines it. I think he'll have to be relieved if a deal is to be reached.

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10-25-2012, 07:57 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
In a society with unprecedented layoffs and salary cuts, do you think that those high school dropouts deserve 200 times the average salary of cops and firefighters who put their lives on the line every freaking day? What about the thousands of US military personnel who died in Iraq and A'stan? What about their tens of thousands brothers in arms that came back physically disabled?

No I guess not. Those people are heroes while the NHL players are easily replaceable by other hockey leagues or sports.
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Really lots of people in both Canada and USA have seen their pay cut significantly and pensions slashed. If I was a player with a four or five year shelf life I would be really angry at Fehr and the richest members of my membership holding my career hostage. Make no mistake the Ovechkin's and Crosby's of the NHL don't hurt the same way as the average NHL players association. I just don't understand how all these sports unions get the middle class (if you can call the guys near 1 million or just over that by that term) to sit around and taking a pounding.
You're missing my point. You both have perspective from your side. They only know one thing. Do you believe if you grew up in their shoes you would be acting any different than they are? You would be supporting the Union.. blah blah blah. People only care about themselves and who is close to them. That's about it.

It's too easy to say 1 million dollars is 10 years at my salary. I would take whatever they give me.

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10-25-2012, 07:57 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
- Maybe they should start flying coach instead of private first class. You know, go back to the good old days when they were taking flights at 4am.

- How about NOT giving them 100 bucks a day for food? (I know some lard ***** that wouldn't be able to spend that much on food in one day)

- How about they pay for their own 300 dollar hockey sticks?

- How about staying at the Comfort Inn instead of 5 star hotels?

- How about players buying memberships at the local gym instead of using the palaces (At Console for instance) that substitute for training facilities?

- How about they pay for their own massage therapists and trainers?
This can be negotiated, of course, and certainly a reasonable cost-cutting measure any business should retain the right to control. It is a cost and a perk.

I have proposed on more than one occasion that the teams should pool things like travel costs to even out the disparity to western teams. That would be fair.


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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
When was the last time that happened? In the 80s? The Oilers?
Yeah, those were horrible times for hockey
The greatest period of disparity was indeed during the 1980s, yet it's never brought up in this context. There are claims that the Dead Puck Era was due to increasing parity among the majority of teams vs the previous decade. The teams that could not truly compete were the expansion teams for the most part, but that's due to structural/development issues and not the player cost structure. In fact, the explosion in player salaries also paralleled the expansion process during the 90's. Good ol' supply and demand methinks.

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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
I guess that explains the eerie similarities between the most recent NBA lockout and the current NHL lockout.
That and their shared roots and current retention at/of Proskauer Rose.

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10-25-2012, 07:58 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Really lots of people in both Canada and USA have seen their pay cut significantly and pensions slashed. If I was a player with a four or five year shelf life I would be really angry at Fehr and the richest members of my membership holding my career hostage. Make no mistake the Ovechkin's and Crosby's of the NHL don't hurt the same way as the average NHL players association. I just don't understand how all these sports unions get the middle class (if you can call the guys near 1 million or just over that by that term) to sit around and taking a pounding.
Agreed. It's mind blowing that we aren't hearing from the "middle class" players during all of this. They are the ones who live payday to payday. They are the ones who are taking it on the chin. the funny thing is that the longer this goes the more likely we are to see the union turn on each other simply because of the gap in salaries between players. There are too many players that will really start to feel the crunch as this plays out... it happened last time around and WILL happen again.

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10-25-2012, 07:59 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by rockinghorse View Post
Talking about profit. I wonder whether ownership is taking a hard look at costs in other areas besides player salaries?

Are there dead wood staff salaries that are not pulling their weight.
Are there totally unnecessary positions that could be eliminated?
Are other staff salaries too high and need to be rolled back?
Is there duplication of work.
Are all expenditures monitored and necessary. I've worked in some places that order $5.00 pens when the .12 cents each one will do.

Could LEAN management processes be useful?
You can't seriously think that middle-class jobs and expensive pens are killing the bottom line when the minimum salary for a single player is over half a million per.

And for what it's worth, every NHL staff person I've ever talked to says they work for less than they could make elsewhere. There is massive competition for those jobs, so a "rollback" is as simple as firing the current guy and hiring someone equally effective at a discount.

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10-25-2012, 08:05 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
You're missing my point. You both have perspective from your side. They only know one thing. Do you believe if you grew up in their shoes you would be acting any different than they are? You would be supporting the Union.. blah blah blah. People only care about themselves and who is close to them. That's about it.

It's too easy to say 1 million dollars is 10 years at my salary. I would take whatever they give me.
I know there is a look at it from their shoes argument. My point is these guys don't have the same shoes. Yes the owners have some differences but they might be losing money or huge differences in revenues but they are billionaires. Half the players union will need to do stuff after their career is over. The other half can sit with their feet up in the air. They don't play the same amount of years, they have more complex things to think about really than just fixing the system. They want it fixed, but they don't want to be locked on the outside of it when it happens. It is a huge difference and the reason the players always break first in these.

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10-25-2012, 08:09 PM
  #194
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My theory. Bettman on November 1-7, Will say that the winter classic WILL be canceled if and agreement is not reached by November 21st.

They will try 2 use it as leverage, which might put some pressure on the players again.

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10-25-2012, 08:09 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
You're missing my point. You both have perspective from your side. They only know one thing. Do you believe if you grew up in their shoes you would be acting any different than they are? You would be supporting the Union.. blah blah blah. People only care about themselves and who is close to them. That's about it.

It's too easy to say 1 million dollars is 10 years at my salary. I would take whatever they give me.

I think I understand the sentiment, but one thing has puzzled me. I don't understand why the elite players signed the 'lifelong' contracts. It made zero business sense for any of them to not only take hometown discounts, but to then add the cap stretching years to help their teams. Seeing the willingness of some teams to give out signing bonuses, the wisest thing to do would be to negotiate the maximum value for each player and get as much of that upfront as possible, inclusive of signing bonuses. Some of the current contracts have two CBA lives remaining on them, and any future contracts would be based on revenues at that time. Yes, there is risk with shorter contracts, but it may be worth it if you're maximizing earnings, especially in a revenue-linked environment.

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10-25-2012, 08:10 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
You can take 99.9% of the PA hating posters on here and put them in the player's shoes. If they grew up training for one thing, skipping school and sacrificing their bodies, they would have the same attitude. The players don't have a great deal of perspective and neither do we.

This kind of BS was going on during the NFL lockout and nobody remembers it.
What you say has some merit, and I myself do hate a fair bit on the PA these days, but my point was more that they can't even help themselves achieve whatever the hell it is they're doing. They have submitted to Fehr's leadership, but they can't even do that properly because of individuals shooting the whole cause in the foot via the media. Just sit tight and remain unseen, as you would for all the other negotiations your representatives oversee.

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10-25-2012, 08:10 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I know there is a look at it from their shoes argument. My point is these guys don't have the same shoes. Yes the owners have some differences but they might be losing money or huge differences in revenues but they are billionaires. Half the players union will need to do stuff after their career is over. The other half can sit with their feet up in the air. They don't play the same amount of years, they have more complex things to think about really than just fixing the system. They want it fixed, but they don't want to be locked on the outside of it when it happens. It is a huge difference and the reason the players always break first in these.
Agree with everything you said. When talking about the lower paid players, the hope that they will get that one big contract keeps them loyal.

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10-25-2012, 08:12 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
My theory. Bettman on November 1-7, Will say that the winter classic WILL be canceled if and agreement is not reached by November 21st.

They will try 2 use it as leverage, which might put some pressure on the players again.
PA would respond with "Its another NHL enforced deadline."

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10-25-2012, 08:13 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
My theory. Bettman on November 1-7, Will say that the winter classic WILL be canceled if and agreement is not reached by November 21st.

They will try 2 use it as leverage, which might put some pressure on the players again.
I think it's just the opposite, the players think the league needs the winter classic and will try to stall until then.

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10-25-2012, 08:13 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Agreed. It's mind blowing that we aren't hearing from the "middle class" players during all of this. They are the ones who live payday to payday. They are the ones who are taking it on the chin. the funny thing is that the longer this goes the more likely we are to see the union turn on each other simply because of the gap in salaries between players. There are too many players that will really start to feel the crunch as this plays out... it happened last time around and WILL happen again.
Could you please define for me what would constitute the "middle class" NHL player, specifically the annual income bracket you're referring to?

Then, if you could, explain to me how they're living payday to payday. Thank you.

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