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Round 2, Vote 2 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
10-27-2012, 12:15 PM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1957-59 Bruins were the toughest competition the 1956-60 Canadiens faced in the Finals and that the upstart healthy Leafs faced in the semis. Canadiens lost only 9 playoff games between 1956-60, three to the Bruins with Don Simmons. Bruins also held the Canadiens to their lowest GF numbers in the playoffs. They were a very good team that lacked an elite goalie.

The 1956 Bruins had given up too much depth in 1955 getting Sawchuk but this was remedied in a year by getting Allan Stanley, the return of Real Chevrefils and the maturation of the young core. Sawchuk's health forced the Bruins to turn to Don Simmons who was well below HHOF caliber - by 1959 splitting the job with an old Harry Lumley. Getting Bucyk for Sawchuk in the 1957 off season helped but the team still lacked goaltending. Trading Allan Stanley to Toronto in 1958 was simply brutal.

Post 2005-06 Devils, forward core of Elias, Parise, Zajac with flow thru or additions like Rafalski, White on defense, Langenbrunner, Gionta, Kovalchuk are well above average, tending towards excellent.
Oh.... right, my bad. I was thining of the 60s when the Bruins were awful. In the late 50s, they were a solid team (led by Fern Flaman and the like). So yes, I don't know that Sawchuk was ever really on terrible teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Right, but harping on how bad the defense was and crediting Brodeur for offsetting that is iffy at best. The Devils were driven by their forwards and their forecheck, and the fortune of not having to play a balanced team until the Finals. I just can't consider that Rangers team offensively competent.
They played the 1st and 3rd best teams in the East (based on the regular season standings). How fortunate.

Agree that they were driven by their forecheck, but when it broke down, Brodeur was an important part. He was my choice for the Smythe if the Devils won, and I wasn't alone in that thought. Kovalchuk was the best skater and he was becoming more and more invisible probably due to the injured back as the playoffs went on. And no, Brodeur wouldn't have been my pick for Smythe in 1995, 2000, or 2003 - I would have picked Stevens, Stevens, Niedermayer among Devils.


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10-27-2012, 12:18 PM
  #52
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Also, I appreciate the work, overpass, but I just find it hard to take praise after a player dies an untimely death at a young age that seriously. I realize Plante was young when he died too (age 57), but he was still long-retired from hockey. Sawchuk (age 40) was still an active player. I was hoping for more from before he died.

And we are comparing him to Martin Brodeur, who many in the media do think is the best of all time.

Anyway, those two are definitely my top 2 this round unless someone comes up with a REALLY good case for someone else.

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10-27-2012, 12:23 PM
  #53
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Brodeur and Plante

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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post


I'll say this, I've seen Brodeur play live more than any other player ever (and no, I'm far from a Devils fan...) probably in the neighborhood of 90 or 100 times and he's one of the smartest, most aware goaltenders I've ever seen...I'm not sure if there's a goalie that has ever understood the game situation at every second better than Brodeur has. And that includes everything about his team and the other team and the officiating and everything.

I'm not very good with statistics and other fun with numbers, but maybe I'll make a little more detailed post about the coaching he's been behind and his awareness of the game. I'd be better at that (I think) anyway...
Very astute observation. In terms of puckhandling and communications which cover the attributes you list, Martin Brodeur and Jacques Plante were the defining elite, levels above any other goalies.

Look forward to your detailed post.

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10-27-2012, 12:33 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Also, I appreciate the work, overpass, but I just find it hard to take praise after a player dies an untimely death at a young age that seriously. I realize Plante was young when he died too (age 57), but he was still long-retired from hockey. Sawchuk (age 40) was still an active player. I was hoping for more from before he died.
I don't have it in front of me, but I found a quote from his mid-50s peak that said Sawchuk was already considered the best of all time by some observers.

Brings up an interesting question of whether his gradual decline would have changed those opinions. Remember when Giguere was a HOF'er in the making?

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10-27-2012, 12:36 PM
  #55
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Vladislav Tretiak

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
To keep things short :

- Dryden, while on a great team, did end up making the difference.
- Tretiak was always on teams that were much better than their opposition, never ending up making much of a difference.
- Tretiak oft' outplayed by Holecek.

Except 1972 Summit Series. Even then, if Tretiak does not make a few positioning adjustments by the 10 minute mark of the first game the series may have been less competitive.

Outplayed by Holecek, at times but that is true in most match-ups.
1976 Canada Cup the cream surfaced. Tretiak on a transitional Soviet team was solid. Holecek on a Czech team that was one of the best Czech Teams ever fell apart at least twice.

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10-27-2012, 01:12 PM
  #56
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I have always wondered that is there a possibility that the more defensive play of CSSR made Holecek look better than Tretiak. According to Finnish hockey books they usually had slightly less shots against goal than Soviets in tournaments (atleast in first half of 70´s.

Also the fact that Holecek managed to led CSSR to WHC golds only in olympic years 72 and 76 is intresting. Two months before 72 WHCs 19 year old Tretiak played great and led USSR to olympic gold when Holecek had terrible tournament. USSR was also 76 olympic gold medalist losing only one period in whole tournament.

I think you are starting to bit overrate Holecek here. He was in Dzurillas and others shadows till he was 26. Even during his peak he was "beaten" by Dzurilla in 3 of the 5 times they were in tournament together (I know I have said that before). He had some excellent WHCs in the "second" part of his career and nice resume against USSR but if I look their whole career I have no troubles of choosing Tretiak.

Edit. To be more spesific in 1972 WHCs and Olympics, 1975 WHCs and 1976 WHCs and Olympics. 1974 Soviets had slightly less. Other data from 1972-1978 I don´t have. Sorry if the comment was slightly misleading.


Last edited by Sanf: 10-28-2012 at 07:16 AM.
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10-27-2012, 03:27 PM
  #57
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The case for Tretiak: Easily the best goalie the USSR ever produced

Soviet League 1st Team All Star 14 straight seasons between 1971 and 1984.

5 Time Soviet Player of the Year (also translated as MVP) - the Most Ever
  • Tretiak 5-time MVP (1974, 1975, 1976, 1982, 1983)
  • Firsov 3-time MVP (1968, 1969, 1971)
  • Makarov 3-time MVP (1980, 1985, 1989)
  • Kharlamov 2-time MVP (1972*, 1973)
  • Mikhailov 2-time MVP (1978, 1979)
  • Fetisov 2-time MVP (1982, 1986)
*co-MVP with Maltsev

Some standout performances against Canada:
  • Outplayed Dryden in the 1972 Summit Series (but so did Tony Esposito)
  • Outplayed Dryden in the famous New Year's Eve game of 1975 - The Montreal Canadiens outshot the Red Army Team 38-13 but the game ended in a 3-3 tie.
  • MVP and All Star of the 1981 Canada Cup.

Legacy:
  • One of two Europeans who never played in the NHL to be inducted into the HHOF (the other is Kharlamov)
  • Selected as the goalie on the IIHF's all-time centennial team (note that 4 of the 6 players on the team were Soviet).
  • Anatoli Tarasov, the "father of Russian hockey" wrote in his book that before Tretiak, Soviet goaltending was behind their Canadian counterparts and was the only thing holding back the great Soviet teams of the 1960s. Tretiak (a student of Canadian Seth Martin) changed that.


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10-27-2012, 03:31 PM
  #58
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The case against Tretiak

A. Did the stacked Soviet Team make Tretiak look better than he actually was?

Domestically, Tretiak played for the Red Army team, the flagship franchise of the USSR, where Kharlmov-Petrov-Mikhailov, and later the Green Unit spent their careers. Internationally, the Soviets (especially their forwards) were the most stacked team in Europe.

Jiri Holecek was not a fan of Tretiak: "No, Tretiak wasn't anything special. We had at least ten goalies back home who were better than him and the same goes for Sweden. The Russians had such a good team that it wasn't very hard to be in goal for them."

While Holecek's statement is obviously hyperbole, perhaps there is a ring of truth to it. Other than the few best-on-best tournaments where Canada participated, Tretiak's Soviet teams were the prohibitive favorites in every tournament they played.

B. He doesn't stand out nearly as much against Europe as a whole as he does against domestic Russian competition. Could he stand out so much against other Russians because goaltending has historically been a weak spot for Russia?

1. Jiri Holecek, not Tretiak, was considered the best goalie in Europe in the mid 70s.

The World Championships of Ice Hockey at the time featured all the best players in Europe and were held every year. Therefore, they are the largest sample size of competition against Europe as a whole. In the 1970s, when they were both at their peak's, Jiri Holecek generally outperformed Tretiak at the World Championships

Tretiak (USSR)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1974, 1979, 1983)
•World Championships All Star (1975, 1979, 1983)

Jiri Holecek (Czech)
World Championships Best Goalie (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
•World Championships All Star (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Tretiak and Holecek overlapped as starters for their national teams from 1972-1978. In that 7 years, Holecek was named best goalie 4 times, and Tretiak just once.

Anecdotally, Holecek (not Tretiak) was considered the best goalie in Europe, heading into the 1976 Canada Cup. From wikipedia's entry on the 1976 Canada Cup (citing Joe Pelletier's book):

Quote:
The Czechoslovakian team was predicted to face Canada in the final by most experts as they brought the same team that won the 1976 World Championship a few months prior. Their goaltender, Jiří Holeček, was considered the best in the world outside the NHL
We all know Holecek didn't play well against Canada in the Canada Cup, but this isn't about ranking Holecek The point of bringing this up right now is that in the mid 70s, as Tretiak was in the midst of winning his third consecutive "Soviet Player of the Year" award, the general feeling was that he was not the best goalie in Europe.

2. Tretiak's awards case from the World Championships does not stand out compared to other goalies

pre-NHL Hasek (Czech)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1987, 1989)
•World Championships All Star (1987, 1989, 1990)

Jiri Kralik (Czech)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1982, 1985)
•World Championships All Star (1982, 1985)

Pekka Lindmark (Swedish)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1981, 1986)
•World Championships All Star (1981, 1986)

C. While Tretiak had some great performances in high profile games, he also had some stinkers
  • The Miracle on Ice game
  • Games 6, 7, and 8 of the Summit Series (granted he was only 20 years old)
  • A few poor performances against NHL teams in exhibition matches
  • Tretiak was terrible in losing 6-4 against Poland in the 1976 World Championships, which helped pave the way for Czechoslovakia to win gold


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Old
10-27-2012, 03:40 PM
  #59
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Here are some links with information about Tretiak:

Thread about Tretiak on hfboards:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1106219

This is from a bio of Tretiak celebrating his 60th birthday:

Quote:
He was a backup to the goalie whom Vladislav Tretiak to this very day calls his idol, Viktor Konovalenko. The same pair was selected to the 1971 Worlds in Switzerland, but by that time Tretiak has already overtaken his idol. The 19-year-old was already No. 1.

So while Tretiak was a total unknown to the North American hockey audience in 1972, Europe had known him for two years.

The somewhat strange thing is that Tretiak was judged differently in Europe and in North America for many years of his career.

Due to his sensational performance in the 1972 Summit Series, Tretiak immediately became a super-hero in Canada and the perception of him as the superior goaltender from Europe – and thus by far the best European at that position – just grew with the 1975 New Year’s Eve game and the 1981 Canada Cup rout.

But back in Europe, during the ‘70s, the European hockey community generally considered the Czechoslovaks Vladimir Dzurilla and Jiri Holecek as stronger goaltenders than Tretiak. And quite often whenever Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union met in many of their epic World Championship games in the 1970s, the Czechoslovaks came up on top in their head-to-head games, although the Soviet team won the gold nine times out of ten.

But it was the 1981 Canada Cup final – and the sensational 8-1 score which would have been something totally different had the CCCP team had a human in net – that cemented Tretiak’s position as not only the best in Europe, but the best in the world.

Sadly, and due to the totalitarian regime of that era, Tretiak played for only three more years before he decided to quit.
http://www.iihf.com/nc/home-of-hocke...ecap/6711.html

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10-27-2012, 03:41 PM
  #60
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Another argument for Tretiak is his longevity. 1968-1984 is pretty unique, especially in the Soviet system. And he remained playing on the high level until the day he retired.

Yeah, Tretiak had some bad games. But so did every goalie in history. I think his unparalleled 5 MVP awards (over Kharlamov. etc.) says a lot. So do his games against Montreal and Gretzky-led Canada in 1981.

To me, he is second only to Hasek. Yes, Soviet NTs were stacked, but then you have to concede that other Soviet players were even better than Tretiak, especially when playing NHL teams. Which, again, brings us to the sad fact that there are only 5 Soviet players on the Top 70 list.

I also wouldn't call his performance against NHL teams "poor." In 1975 and 1983 it was anything but.

1. Hasek
2. Tretiak
3. Roy

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10-27-2012, 03:53 PM
  #61
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Sidelnikov was the starter in Poland loss in 1976. Game was 4-1 when they replaced him.

Here is the game if anyone wants to see it. Tretiak is changed to goal in ~38 minute of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEIQOfrOHNs

Sidelnikov was the backup most of the Holecek-Tretiak era. He had some really bad results. Was that because of that the second best goalie in USSR was that weak or did it expose weaknes in USSR play?

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10-27-2012, 03:54 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Another argument for Tretiak is his longevity. 1968-1984 is pretty unique, especially in the Soviet system. And he remained playing on the high level until the day he retired.

Yeah, Tretiak had some bad games. But so did every goalie in history. I think his unparalleled 5 MVP awards (over Kharlamov. etc.) says a lot. So do his games against Montreal and Gretzky-led Canada in 1981.

To me, he is second only to Hasek. Yes, Soviet NTs were stacked, but then you have to concede that other Soviet players were even better than Tretiak, especially when playing NHL teams. Which, again, brings us to the sad fact that there are only 5 Soviet players on the Top 70 list.

I also wouldn't call his performance against NHL teams "poor." In 1975 and 1983 it was anything but.

1. Hasek
2. Tretiak
3. Roy
Yeah, he won 5 Soviet Player of the Year awards (which I think is a more accurate translation than "MVP", right?) But again, I wonder how much of that is because of lack of other quality Soviet goalies. If you're the best goalie in your country by far, it makes you look more valuable.

My biggest issue with Tretiak is that he just didn't stand out as much as soon as you start comparing him to other goalies in Europe, especially Czechoslovakia.

And yes, in my opinion, there is a legit case that Sergei Makarov was every bit as good as Guy Lafleur and Mike Bossy. And I know a lot of North Americans think Fetisov peaked as high as Bourque before his major injury. But let's try to focus on goalies.

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10-27-2012, 03:57 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
Sidelnikov was the starter in Poland loss in 1976. Game was 4-1 when they replaced him.

Here is the game if anyone wants to see it. Tretiak is changed to goal in ~38 minute of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEIQOfrOHNs

Sidelnikov was the backup most of the Holecek-Tretiak era. He had some really bad results. Was that because of that the second best goalie in USSR was that weak or did it expose weaknes in USSR play?
Thanks for the correction. I really should stop using other hfboards posts as facts without checking them first.

It certainly does point towards a weakness in goal in the USSR outside of Tretiak. (Edit or did everyone else in the USSR just look weak because Tretiak was so much better?)

For the record, I don't think the "occasional bad game" is a particularly strong argument against Tretiak, but it's one I've seen used before.

I would love it if someone wanted to take the time to do a more detailed look at his performances against NHL players.


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10-27-2012, 06:01 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The case for Brodeur over Sawchuk (summary from last thread):

The case for Brodeur over Terry Sawchuk basically comes down to preferring Brodeur's 15+ seasons of very good play over Sawchuk's 5 seasons of dominant play plus 10+ seasons of up and down play.

The case for Brodeur (links)
IT IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE DIFFICULT TO REPEAT AS THE TOP GOALIE IN THE LEAGUE IN THE MODERN LEAGUE THAN IN THE ORIGINAL 6
Brodeur's awards recognition in a hypothetical league without Europeans
Brodeur's road save percentages in his Vezina years

Sawchuk's dynasty years (1950-51 to 1954-55) vs the rest of his career(click for the link)

Conclusions:
  • His 5 year regular season peak seems as good as advertised, though may have been inflated slightly by the fact that he was the only goalie in hockey who didn't have to face the Production Line for 20% of his games.
  • Outside of his peak, Sawchuk's career is more impressive for its longevity than for a consistently high level level of play - he had his ups and his downs after leaving Detroit for the first time.
  • He was up-and-down in the playoffs even during his peak. His 1952 playoffs are arguably the most impressive single season playoff run of all time (8-0, 0.62 GAA, 4 shutouts). He was strong in 1954 and 1955 - and the HHOF research committee gave him a second retro Smythe. But his weaker playoffs in 1951 and 1953 are part of the reason that the Wings lost two Cups they probably should have won.
  • Sawchuk had one great last hurrah in the playoffs in 1967 (playing the majority of games over Johnny Bower as Toronto won a surprise Cup), but his overall playoff record after 1955 isn't as impressive.
This sort of stuff is starting to remind of the tearing down of the reputation of another original 6 guy in the defenseman project (Bill Gadsby)

Sawchuk's peak being enhanced by not having to play against the production line is certainly farfetched. Every team had offensive stars in those days. Sawchuk certainly saw tougher competition game after game than Brodeur ever did.

Regarding his up and down career after leaving Detroit for the first time, that is probably due the varying talent of the teams Sawchuk played on. Jack Adams pretty much destroyed the Red wings after the 56-57 season.

Every goalie and every team can have bad playoff moments so I don't make too much of the wings missing the cup in 51 and 53.

Brodeur has certainly had his bad moments. The 2010 Olympics being a prime example.

In my mind, Sawchuk definitely should be the number one guy this round. He has been beat up enough for someone that for a long time was thought to be the best goalie ever. Enough with the revisionism.

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10-27-2012, 09:27 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
This sort of stuff is starting to remind of the tearing down of the reputation of another original 6 guy in the defenseman project (Bill Gadsby)

Sawchuk's peak being enhanced by not having to play against the production line is certainly farfetched. Every team had offensive stars in those days. Sawchuk certainly saw tougher competition game after game than Brodeur ever did.
Detroit finished 1st in scoring in 1951, 1952, and 1953, scoring 24%, 18%, 32% more than league average. They were 2nd to Montreal in 1954 and 1955, scoring 14% and 15% more than league average. They were the top ranked regular season team overall every season from 1948-49 to 1954-1955. Sawchuks' rookie season was 1950-51, the year after Detroit won the first Cup of the dynasty, and two years after their string of 7 straight regular season titles.

He was thrust into an awfully good situation in Detroit. Though you're right, the majority of people who watched him seemed to think he was really that good.

Quote:
Regarding his up and down career after leaving Detroit for the first time, that is probably due the varying talent of the teams Sawchuk played on. Jack Adams pretty much destroyed the Red wings after the 56-57 season.

Every goalie and every team can have bad playoff moments so I don't make too much of the wings missing the cup in 51 and 53.

Brodeur has certainly had his bad moments. The 2010 Olympics being a prime example.
Brodeur has had bad moments, and I'm sure most voters remember them. I don't think there's anything wrong with point out the bad moments of older players.

Until 2010 or so when Brodeur's decline started to hit, he had a reputation as a guy without maybe the peak of other goalies, but who rarely had lows either. That's kind of Brodeur's thing, right? Game to game consistency (even though I do agree that he was better game to game from 2002-2008 than he was earlier).

Quote:
In my mind, Sawchuk definitely should be the number one guy this round. He has been beat up enough for someone that for a long time was thought to be the best goalie ever. Enough with the revisionism.
Ranking a newer goalie over an older goalie isn't revisionism if you honestly believe that the newer goalie surpassed the older one.

Do you think it's wrong that we ranked Hall and Plante over Sawchuk?

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10-27-2012, 10:37 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Sawchuk's peak being enhanced by not having to play against the production line is certainly farfetched. Every team had offensive stars in those days. Sawchuk certainly saw tougher competition game after game than Brodeur ever did.
The gap between Detroit and usually 1 other team and the rest of the league was quite great in those peak years.

Looking at 55, I'm having a real hard time finding offensive stars on Chicago, Boston and the Rangers for that year.

Looking at 54, it's the same thing for all 3 teams.

In 53 it's true for the bottom 4 teams although Ted Kennedy in his 43 games out of 70 was a star.

In 52, I'll buy that Mosienko was a goal scoring star finishing 2nd, 16 goals behind Howe and 13 goals ahead of the next highest Black Hawk. Star power on the other 3 bottom teams is extremely limited though, maybe Milt and the Ted and Sid show in Toronto?

In 51, it's another mixed bag with a couple of players outside of Montreal and Detroit that could be considered offensive stars.

On the whole it really looks like the original argument of Sawchuk befitting quite a bit from playing on good teams helps him even more than it might normally do. To be fair though I think the same case can be made for Dryden and Tretiak in this round as well through out their careers and to Parent's 2 peak years.

Quote:
Regarding his up and down career after leaving Detroit for the first time, that is probably due the varying talent of the teams Sawchuk played on. Jack Adams pretty much destroyed the Red wings after the 56-57 season.

Every goalie and every team can have bad playoff moments so I don't make too much of the wings missing the cup in 51 and 53.

Brodeur has certainly had his bad moments. The 2010 Olympics being a prime example.
It's pretty clear that Broduer has had the more consistent top level career though, the exception of the 10 Olympics aside.

Quote:
In my mind, Sawchuk definitely should be the number one guy this round. He has been beat up enough for someone that for a long time was thought to be the best goalie ever. Enough with the revisionism.
Yes Sawchuk was once considered the best goalie ever but upon further detailed investigation and analysis that idea didn't hold up.

I'm not involved in the voting for various reasons but all that being said I would say that Sawchuk is a solid 2nd this round after Broduer then it's less clear in my mind after that.

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10-28-2012, 08:00 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The gap between Detroit and usually 1 other team and the rest of the league was quite great in those peak years.

Looking at 55, I'm having a real hard time finding offensive stars on Chicago, Boston and the Rangers for that year.

Looking at 54, it's the same thing for all 3 teams.

In 53 it's true for the bottom 4 teams although Ted Kennedy in his 43 games out of 70 was a star.

In 52, I'll buy that Mosienko was a goal scoring star finishing 2nd, 16 goals behind Howe and 13 goals ahead of the next highest Black Hawk. Star power on the other 3 bottom teams is extremely limited though, maybe Milt and the Ted and Sid show in Toronto?

In 51, it's another mixed bag with a couple of players outside of Montreal and Detroit that could be considered offensive stars.

On the whole it really looks like the original argument of Sawchuk befitting quite a bit from playing on good teams helps him even more than it might normally do. To be fair though I think the same case can be made for Dryden and Tretiak in this round as well through out their careers and to Parent's 2 peak years.

Detroit wasn't always the top scoring team in those years. Montreal beat them out a couple of times and was very close another year. And every team did have players that could hurt you. In 54, Sandford & Mackel of boston were in the top 10 & Hergesheimerof New York was a top goal scorer. In 55, there was Smith & kennedy for the Leafs & Sullivan & litzenberger for Chicago. You have mentioned the others from the earlier years.

I think that detroit was pretty much a run & gun team at the time and Sawchuk deserves a lot of the credit for keeping their goals against down.

In any event, if you start penalizing goalies for having great offensive players on their team then you are going to penalizing the peak years of almost every successful original 6 goalie. After all Hall had Hull & Mikita. How about Plante--he had Beliveau, RichardX2, Geoffrion, Moore and Olmstead.


Last edited by pappyline: 10-28-2012 at 08:11 AM.
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10-28-2012, 08:09 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ranking a newer goalie over an older goalie isn't revisionism if you honestly believe that the newer goalie surpassed the older one.

Do you think it's wrong that we ranked Hall and Plante over Sawchuk?
Yeh, you are right it is not revisionism if you honestly believe it but I do sense on these boards a push to downgrade original 6 guys to pump up modern players and some of the arguments seem a little over the top.

No, I don't think it is wrong that Hall & Plante are rated over Sawchuk. However, I do think the 3 goalies are very close and would not have been surprised or disappointed to see Sawchuk ranked the highest.

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10-28-2012, 08:16 AM
  #69
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Yeh, you are right it is not revisionism if you honestly believe it but I do sense on these boards a push to downgrade original 6 guys to pump up modern players and some of the arguments seem a little over the top.

No, I don't think it is wrong that Hall & Plante are rated over Sawchuk. However, I do think the 3 goalies are very close and would not have been surprised or disappointed to see Sawchuk ranked the highest.
So my interpretation of what you said pappy :

While it would be kindof "normal" that to rank a guy like Brodeur above Sawchuck (because Brodeur is still playing... and that he just added quite a bit to his resume), ranking Dryden above Sawchuck would be revisionnist -- because that's never how they were ranked. The same would apply, to a bigger extent, with guys like Durnan and Brimsek.

My only question about that : ranked by whom? Do you have any quotes from experts, columnists, "historians", managers & execs, teammates or even other goalies?

No inquisition here : just wondering about the perception of Sawchuck vs. Dryden, during the 60ies and 70ies.

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10-28-2012, 08:30 AM
  #70
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Also, I appreciate the work, overpass, but I just find it hard to take praise after a player dies an untimely death at a young age that seriously. I realize Plante was young when he died too (age 57), but he was still long-retired from hockey. Sawchuk (age 40) was still an active player. I was hoping for more from before he died.

And we are comparing him to Martin Brodeur, who many in the media do think is the best of all time.

Anyway, those two are definitely my top 2 this round unless someone comes up with a REALLY good case for someone else.
Fair enough. I was able to find very little on google news about the greatest goaltenders before the late 90s when Roy and Hasek broke into the conversation.

If anyone has access to Christian Science Monitor archives or feels like paying for an article, this article might be interesting. The first two sentences:
Quote:
Terry Sawchuk is playing only his second full season in the National Hockey League. But already the youthful (22) Detroit Red Wing goalie is being compared to the all-time netminders of the ...
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/csmonito...s&pqatl=google

Other possible sources are the Globe and Mail or Toronto Star archives, magazines like Hockey Pictorial or Hockey Illustrated, or people who lived through that time period.

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10-28-2012, 08:36 AM
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So my interpretation of what you said pappy :

While it would be kindof "normal" that to rank a guy like Brodeur above Sawchuck (because Brodeur is still playing... and that he just added quite a bit to his resume), ranking Dryden above Sawchuck would be revisionnist -- because that's never how they were ranked. The same would apply, to a bigger extent, with guys like Durnan and Brimsek.

My only question about that : ranked by whom? Do you have any quotes from experts, columnists, "historians", managers & execs, teammates or even other goalies?

No inquisition here : just wondering about the perception of Sawchuck vs. Dryden, during the 60ies and 70ies.
I never said it was revisionist to rank Dryden over Sawchuk. Don't know where you got that idea.

If you are looking for quotes regarding Dryden vs Sawchuk, I suggest you do your own research. I will be interested in seeing what you find out.

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10-28-2012, 08:47 AM
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Ken Dryden

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
So my interpretation of what you said pappy :

While it would be kindof "normal" that to rank a guy like Brodeur above Sawchuck (because Brodeur is still playing... and that he just added quite a bit to his resume), ranking Dryden above Sawchuck would be revisionnist -- because that's never how they were ranked. The same would apply, to a bigger extent, with guys like Durnan and Brimsek.

My only question about that : ranked by whom? Do you have any quotes from experts, columnists, "historians", managers & execs, teammates or even other goalies?

No inquisition here : just wondering about the perception of Sawchuck vs. Dryden, during the 60ies and 70ies.
People in the seventies recognized Ken Dryden's short term era supremacy in the NHL, the team and individual awards and honours yet no one considered him better or even a close third in the Jacques Plante/Terry Sawchuk/Glenn Hall group.

The revisionism comes in when modern criteria becomes introduced to the debate without respecting the criteria of the original 6 or post expansion era.

Example the Hart Trophy. Plante won it once while Sawchuk and Hall never did. The Hart Trophy does not define playing a specific position, it is a residual award reflecting any players value to his team for a given season.As such it was never a consideration when discussing actual goaltending talent rather it was viewed as reflecting team contributions during a season. So Al Rollins winning the Hart in 1954 reflected a unique season where his play allowed a bad Chicago team to enter the 3rd period of games at least 40 times with a chance to win or tie. Yet no one claimed that Rollins was ever the best goalie or even top 3 of the O6 goaltenders because he was not.

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10-28-2012, 09:02 AM
  #73
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Google Newspaper Archives

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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Fair enough. I was able to find very little on google news about the greatest goaltenders before the late 90s when Roy and Hasek broke into the conversation.

If anyone has access to Christian Science Monitor archives or feels like paying for an article, this article might be interesting. The first two sentences:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/csmonito...s&pqatl=google

Other possible sources are the Globe and Mail or Toronto Star archives, magazines like Hockey Pictorial or Hockey Illustrated, or people who lived through that time period.
Link to the alphabetical Google Newspaper Archives:

http://news.google.com/newspapers

The last bolded is interesting. Doubt that people who are not willing to invest time and effort in researching the various print and video sources that have been around for close to a generation, will take the time to listen.

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10-28-2012, 10:16 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Fair enough. I was able to find very little on google news about the greatest goaltenders before the late 90s when Roy and Hasek broke into the conversation.

If anyone has access to Christian Science Monitor archives or feels like paying for an article, this article might be interesting. The first two sentences:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/csmonito...s&pqatl=google

Other possible sources are the Globe and Mail or Toronto Star archives, magazines like Hockey Pictorial or Hockey Illustrated, or people who lived through that time period.
didn't feel like transcribing, so here's a link to a .pdf of that CSM article: http://www.sendspace.com/file/v6i65x

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10-28-2012, 10:48 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
People in the seventies recognized Ken Dryden's short term era supremacy in the NHL, the team and individual awards and honours yet no one considered him better or even a close third in the Jacques Plante/Terry Sawchuk/Glenn Hall group.

The revisionism comes in when modern criteria becomes introduced to the debate without respecting the criteria of the original 6 or post expansion era.

Example the Hart Trophy. Plante won it once while Sawchuk and Hall never did. The Hart Trophy does not define playing a specific position, it is a residual award reflecting any players value to his team for a given season.As such it was never a consideration when discussing actual goaltending talent rather it was viewed as reflecting team contributions during a season. So Al Rollins winning the Hart in 1954 reflected a unique season where his play allowed a bad Chicago team to enter the 3rd period of games at least 40 times with a chance to win or tie. Yet no one claimed that Rollins was ever the best goalie or even top 3 of the O6 goaltenders because he was not.
The term revisionism is over used here in the history section. There is already a bias or a protection system built in so that player from the past are treated at least as equally as current or modern players.

I might have missed it but Hart counting among Goalies isn't the main criteria driving any players resume here is it?

Hart voting over the years has changed and there is no set criteria anyways and there has been some inconsistency in that award from year to year.

It's pretty clear at this point in the project that every goalie up for consideration has at least a peak and most have a prime that is considered elite. Being 1st in wins, GAA, Save %, SO, winning a Hart or a Conn Smythe ect are all part of the equation aren't they?

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