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Round 2, Vote 2 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
10-28-2012, 12:51 PM
  #76
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
didn't feel like transcribing, so here's a link to a .pdf of that CSM article: http://www.sendspace.com/file/v6i65x
Thanks. The salient points:
  • In the middle of Sawchuk's 2nd season, Frank Boucher, former superstar player and now GM of the NY Rangers called Sawchuk "the greatest goalie in the history of big league hockey."
  • Time is the real test of greatness, and Sawchuk had only been around 2 seasons by that point.
  • Sawchuk did have a great defense in front of him, with players like Leo Reise, Bob Goldham, and Red Kelly (all of whom were postseason all stars at some point).
  • Despite playing behind a great defense, "Sawchuk boosters point to his style of play - his quick reflexes, his alert 'crouching style,' and his ability to protect the net by bouncing back after going to the ice for a save."
  • Sawchuk was Rookie of the Year in the USL in 1948, Rookie of the Year in the AHL in 1949, and Rookie of the Year in the NHL in 1951.
  • Sawchuk is "more than living up to expectations" in his second season.

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10-28-2012, 01:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks. The salient points:
  • In the middle of Sawchuk's 2nd season, Frank Boucher, former superstar player and now GM of the NY Rangers called Sawchuk "the greatest goalie in the history of big league hockey."
  • Time is the real test of greatness, and Sawchuk had only been around 2 seasons by that point.
  • Sawchuk did have a great defense in front of him, with players like Leo Reise, Bob Goldham, and Red Kelly (all of whom were postseason all stars at some point).
  • Despite playing behind a great defense, "Sawchuk boosters point to his style of play - his quick reflexes, his alert 'crouching style,' and his ability to protect the net by bouncing back after going to the ice for a save."
  • Sawchuk was Rookie of the Year in the USL in 1948, Rookie of the Year in the AHL in 1949, and Rookie of the Year in the NHL in 1951.
  • Sawchuk is "more than living up to expectations" in his second season.
I thought the list of great goaltenders of the past was interesting. Clint Benedict wasn't named. Sample size of one, but perhaps illustrative of Benedict being a bit of a forgotten man, especially compared to Vezina who had a trophy named after him.

Listed names were Hainsworth, Connell, Vezina, Gardiner, Thompson, Worters, Brimsek, Durnan, Broda. A fairly complete list of great NHL goaltenders as of 1950, but missing Benedict.

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10-28-2012, 01:33 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I thought the list of great goaltenders of the past was interesting. Clint Benedict wasn't named. Sample size of one, but perhaps illustrative of Benedict being a bit of a forgotten man, especially compared to Vezina who had a trophy named after him.

Listed names were Hainsworth, Connell, Vezina, Gardiner, Thompson, Worters, Brimsek, Durnan, Broda. A fairly complete list of great NHL goaltenders as of 1950, but missing Benedict.
I'm going to post more on Benedict later because I have a feeling that I have a lower opinion of him that a lot of posters here, but one thing that stands out is just how little he is talked about after he retired, compared to other early great goalies.

Even in the early 1930s, when people were talking about whether Charlie Gardiner was the greatest goalie of all time, people were talking about Georges Vezina and sometimes Hugh Lehman as the guys he would need to pass for that honor. I obviously didn't read close to everything written during the period, but I probably read close to everything that is available for free on google archives that discussed whether Gardiner was the best of all time (as of the early 30s), and I never once saw Clint Benedict mentioned. And this was less than a decade after Benedict retired.

My research into whether Charlie Gardiner was considered the best of all time in the early 30s is originally what made me seriously question Benedict's position on this board. I know there is a sense that maybe guys like Georges Vezina and Charlie Gardiner were lionized after their untimely deaths, but that doesn't explain the almost complete lack of press that Benedict received after he retired.

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10-28-2012, 01:43 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for the correction. I really should stop using other hfboards posts as facts without checking them first.

It certainly does point towards a weakness in goal in the USSR outside of Tretiak. (Edit or did everyone else in the USSR just look weak because Tretiak was so much better?)

For the record, I don't think the "occasional bad game" is a particularly strong argument against Tretiak, but it's one I've seen used before.

I would love it if someone wanted to take the time to do a more detailed look at his performances against NHL players.
So would I, but it just doesn't look like anybody here is interested in Tretiak.

Notice, he didn't win the MVP award 5 times against other goalies. He won it against skaters (Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Ragulin, etc.). That alone should tell you how valuable and good he was.

I seriously can't believe people pick Dryden and Sawchuk and others over Tretiak and his career. Tretiak stole games against superior opponents (vs. Canadiens in 75) and dominated when he was expected to (Sarajevo in 84). A handful of bad games cannot change that.

And yes, Makarov was better than Bossy and Lafleur. If he is not in the Top 15, then people just didn't watch him in his prime.

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10-28-2012, 01:55 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
So would I, but it just doesn't look like anybody here is interested in Tretiak.

Notice, he didn't win the MVP award 5 times against other goalies. He won it against skaters (Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Ragulin, etc.). That alone should tell you how valuable and good he was.

I seriously can't believe people pick Dryden and Sawchuk and others over Tretiak and his career. Tretiak stole games against superior opponents (vs. Canadiens in 75) and dominated when he was expected to (Sarajevo in 84). A handful of bad games cannot change that.

And yes, Makarov was better than Bossy and Lafleur. If he is not in the Top 15, then people just didn't watch him in his prime.
I don't know why you think nobody is interested in Tretiak when I had 3 relatively long posts in a row about him. I'm very interested in Tretiak and am legitimately undecided as to whether he will be in my top 4 this round. I had him just outside my top 10 on my submitted list. I do think there's a legit case that Holecek was just as good, if not better, but just because Holecek might be underrated (at least in my opinion), doesn't mean that we shouldn't vote in Tretiak if we think he deserves it.

I know he won those MVPs against all skaters, but if he is that much better than every other domestic goalie, it makes him more of a difference-maker than if Russia was better at developing goalies, right? I think it's at least as important to look at what he did against the rest of Europe and against NHL players, as it is to look at what he did against the Soviet domestic league.


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10-28-2012, 03:53 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The case against Tretiak

A. Did the stacked Soviet Team make Tretiak look better than he actually was?

Domestically, Tretiak played for the Red Army team, the flagship franchise of the USSR, where Kharlmov-Petrov-Mikhailov, and later the Green Unit spent their careers. Internationally, the Soviets (especially their forwards) were the most stacked team in Europe.

Jiri Holecek was not a fan of Tretiak: "No, Tretiak wasn't anything special. We had at least ten goalies back home who were better than him and the same goes for Sweden. The Russians had such a good team that it wasn't very hard to be in goal for them."

While Holecek's statement is obviously hyperbole, perhaps there is a ring of truth to it. Other than the few best-on-best tournaments where Canada participated, Tretiak's Soviet teams were the prohibitive favorites in every tournament they played.

B. He doesn't stand out nearly as much against Europe as a whole as he does against domestic Russian competition. Could he stand out so much against other Russians because goaltending has historically been a weak spot for Russia?

1. Jiri Holecek, not Tretiak, was considered the best goalie in Europe in the mid 70s.

The World Championships of Ice Hockey at the time featured all the best players in Europe and were held every year. Therefore, they are the largest sample size of competition against Europe as a whole. In the 1970s, when they were both at their peak's, Jiri Holecek generally outperformed Tretiak at the World Championships

Tretiak (USSR)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1974, 1979, 1983)
•World Championships All Star (1975, 1979, 1983)

Jiri Holecek (Czech)
World Championships Best Goalie (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
•World Championships All Star (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Tretiak and Holecek overlapped as starters for their national teams from 1972-1978. In that 7 years, Holecek was named best goalie 4 times, and Tretiak just once.

Anecdotally, Holecek (not Tretiak) was considered the best goalie in Europe, heading into the 1976 Canada Cup. From wikipedia's entry on the 1976 Canada Cup (citing Joe Pelletier's book):



We all know Holecek didn't play well against Canada in the Canada Cup, but this isn't about ranking Holecek The point of bringing this up right now is that in the mid 70s, as Tretiak was in the midst of winning his third consecutive "Soviet Player of the Year" award, the general feeling was that he was not the best goalie in Europe.

2. Tretiak's awards case from the World Championships does not stand out compared to other goalies

pre-NHL Hasek (Czech)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1987, 1989)
•World Championships All Star (1987, 1989, 1990)

Jiri Kralik (Czech)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1982, 1985)
•World Championships All Star (1982, 1985)

Pekka Lindmark (Swedish)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1981, 1986)
•World Championships All Star (1981, 1986)

C. While Tretiak had some great performances in high profile games, he also had some stinkers
  • The Miracle on Ice game
  • Games 6, 7, and 8 of the Summit Series (granted he was only 20 years old)
  • A few poor performances against NHL teams in exhibition matches
  • Tretiak was terrible in losing 6-4 against Poland in the 1976 World Championships, which helped pave the way for Czechoslovakia to win gold
Regarding the World Championship all-star teams, I would just like to point out that it was difficult for a gold-medallist goalie to make the IIHF All-Star Team.

In the 35 World Championships the USSR participated in:
- the USSR won 22 golds, and 4 of those 22 times was a Soviet goalie selected to the All-Star Team.
- Sweden won 4 golds, and only once did a Swedish goalie get selected to the All-Star Team.
- Czechoslovakia won 4 golds, and 2 of those 4 times a Czech goalie was selected to the All-Star Team.
- Canada won 4 golds, and only once did a Canadian goalie get selected to the All-Star Team.
- the USA won once (1960 Olympics), and the American goalie was selected to the All-Star Team.

For example, Pekka Lindmark was chosen as the best goalie of the 1981 World Championships, even though he was in goal for a 13-1 loss to the Soviets in the medal round. For comparison, Tretiak gave up 13 goals in 7 games in the entire tournament. And it's not like the Soviets were the only team with offensive stars either; these players all played in the 1981 WCs:

Mike Gartner
Guy Lafleur
Lanny McDonald
Vladimir Martinec
Ivan Hlinka
Milan Novy
Mats Naslund
Thomas Steen
Dave Christian

Is it possible that the IIHF prefers to award the All-Star goalie spot "sympathetically" i.e. to a goalie who steals games/gives his team a chance in games, rather than a goalie on a great team who doesn't actually need to be great in order to win? If so Tretiak would be penalized for being on arguably the greatest national teams of all time.

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10-28-2012, 04:10 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
Regarding the World Championship all-star teams, I would just like to point out that it was difficult for a gold-medallist goalie to make the IIHF All-Star Team.

In the 35 World Championships the USSR participated in:
- the USSR won 22 golds, and 4 of those 22 times was a Soviet goalie selected to the All-Star Team.
- Sweden won 4 golds, and only once did a Swedish goalie get selected to the All-Star Team.
- Czechoslovakia won 4 golds, and 2 of those 4 times a Czech goalie was selected to the All-Star Team.
- Canada won 4 golds, and only once did a Canadian goalie get selected to the All-Star Team.
- the USA won once (1960 Olympics), and the American goalie was selected to the All-Star Team.

For example, Pekka Lindmark was chosen as the best goalie of the 1981 World Championships, even though he was in goal for a 13-1 loss to the Soviets in the medal round. For comparison, Tretiak gave up 13 goals in 7 games in the entire tournament. And it's not like the Soviets were the only team with offensive stars either; these players all played in the 1981 WCs:

Mike Gartner
Guy Lafleur
Lanny McDonald
Vladimir Martinec
Ivan Hlinka
Milan Novy
Mats Naslund
Thomas Steen
Dave Christian

Is it possible that the IIHF prefers to award the All-Star goalie spot "sympathetically" i.e. to a goalie who steals games/gives his team a chance in games, rather than a goalie on a great team who doesn't actually need to be great in order to win? If so Tretiak would be penalized for being on arguably the greatest national teams of all time.
Interesting. But should the fact that Tretiak lost 3 World Championships to an "inferior" Czechoslovak team in 1972, 1976, and 1977 matter?

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10-28-2012, 04:51 PM
  #83
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On first look I'm leaning heavy towards Sawchuk, Brimsek, Dryden, and Brodeur as my top 4 in some order, though Benedict and Tretiak could make things interesting. Some good discussion re: Tretiak already.

I do think it's a sound point that one of the reasons that Tretiak stood out so much compared to his Soviet peers is that it was a systemic weakness. Konovalenko is the only other Soviet system goalie that might come up for discussion IMO. Already in the Czechoslovakian system we have Hasek, Holecek likely isn't too far behind this vote, and Dzurilla and Kralik are both easily possible.

Now, the IIHF tournament best goalie awards value is definitely up for debate. In looking over Jiri Holecek's Best Goalie awards, only one came when the Czechs won gold, something they did 3 times with him in net. Likewise with Lindmark who won it twice, but neither time was either of his golds. Not sure on Seth Martin, I think one of his 3 was gold with Canada, but the other two most definitely were not. Not saying that there's a definite correlation between the gold winning goalie typically not winning the best goalie award, just pointing out that there may be something to the argument in favor of Tretiak given what we know about his play in some of the best on best tournaments during his career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Interesting. But should the fact that Tretiak lost 3 World Championships to an "inferior" Czechoslovak team in 1972, 1976, and 1977 matter?
I can see how it could be seen as a negative, but those Czechoslovakian teams were pretty dang good in their own right

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10-28-2012, 05:12 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
On first look I'm leaning heavy towards Sawchuk, Brimsek, Dryden, and Brodeur as my top 4 in some order, though Benedict and Tretiak could make things interesting. Some good discussion re: Tretiak already.
This is similar to my line of thinking. Brimsek was my highest ranked of the new candidates. I definitely think we need to examine the 40s goalies in more detail, but I think Sturminator made a pretty good case that Brimsek was the standout goalie of the 40s in the last ATD. It would be nice if he would come back and make the case for Brimsek here, though he seems to be absent from hfboards at the moment.

Tretiak has a chance of sneaking into my top 4 - I think there might be something to the fact that the the World Championships tended to recognize goalies from weaker teams. Keep in mind though that the All Stars were voted by the media and the Best Goalie Award was given by the directorate, so that would have to be two different pools of voters that would be biased against the goalie on the winning team.

But I think if one of the 40s goalies really stands out from the others, he has to make my top 4 this round.

Here's another question: Do any of the new candidates have a case over Dryden? It would pretty much have to be someone who beats Dryden pretty handily in terms of longevity.

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10-28-2012, 05:40 PM
  #85
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I don't know why you think nobody is interested in Tretiak when I had 3 relatively long posts in a row about him.
You and a couple people are. The majority is only interested in squaring Plante vs. Dryden.

Quote:
I'm very interested in Tretiak and am legitimately undecided as to whether he will be in my top 4 this round. I had him just outside my top 10 on my submitted list.
See: if YOU have him outside the Top 10... there's no hope for humanity. I'd be surprised to see him outside the Top 3.

Quote:
I know he won those MVPs against all skaters, but if he is that much better than every other domestic goalie, it makes him more of a difference-maker than if Russia was better at developing goalies, right? I think it's at least as important to look at what he did against the rest of Europe and against NHL players, as it is to look at what he did against the Soviet domestic league.
Soviet teams mostly relied on forwards, so the goalie hardly ever had a chance to be a difference maker. In fact, he had to be a tremendous outlier to be awarded the MVP over those terrific skaters. I mean: 5 times MVP over Kharlamov??

And he did very well against NHL players. Outplayed Dryden in both 72 and 75.

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10-28-2012, 06:34 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
You and a couple people are. The majority is only interested in squaring Plante vs. Dryden.

I could have made sense if... well, it made sense. But it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
See: if YOU have him outside the Top 10... there's no hope for humanity. I'd be surprised to see him outside the Top 3.
That's as much in-depth as saying Tretiak doesn't belong in the Top-20.

Look, if you're to accuse us of being biased, why do you even bother reading the thread?

For this round, I have to admit that I have to be convinced that Tretiak belongs in the Top-8. Please, use other arguments.

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10-28-2012, 07:07 PM
  #87
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If anyone's interested I can post these numbers from Tretiak's WC career. It didn't matter in this tournament, but I ranked the teams by GA rather than standings. The number next to the team name indicates their place in the standings, it just so happened they matched the GA leaders this year.

Also the asterisks refer to games which I believe Tretiak did not play in. I started with '72 instead of '70 or '71 as this was Tretiak's first tournament without Konovalenko.

'72 WC - 8GP 430 MINS / 5-1-2, 2.09 GAA
1. CSSR 16 GA
2. USSR 17 GA
3. Sweden 33 GA
4. Finland 48 GA
5. West Germany 76 GA
6. Switzerland 96 GA

Beat West Germany twice (11-0, 7-0*), Finland twice (10-2, 7-2), Switzerland twice (10-2*, 14-0), Sweden once (11-2), tie CSSR once (3-3,) Sweden once (3-3), lost to CSSR once (2-3)

Directorate Best Goalie: Jorma Valtonen (FIN) / Media: Holecek

Tretiak's first tournament without Konovalenko ends in bitter defeat. Going into April 20th, the Soviets were 7-0-1 (tying Czechs) winning by at least 7 goals each time. After dropping their rematch 3-2 to the Czechs the Soviets closed the tourney tying Sweden. After throttling everyone else, Tretiak and the Soviets stumble twice against Holecek's Czechs and tie in the final game against the Swedes before taking home a Silver medal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notes from Passionhockey
The world championship is held for the first time separately during an Olympic year, which allows to consider the admission of professionals at the World without having to worry about the approval of the IOC. Fever wins the host city, Prague. Nine thousand spectators attending matches average, but everyone waits while two meetings, those between the USSR and Czechoslovakia. Whole country, and half of Europe, for the Czechoslovak team vibrate, which hosts the competition for the first time since the Prague Spring.

This championship is experienced very differently by the two people involved. In the USSR, Nikolai Ozerov TV commentator acted as if nothing had happened and continues to talk about "our enemies and friends", referring to the Czechoslovak hockey, the term used for the comrades of the Warsaw Pact countries, even if those they are not at all lively friendly feelings. The Soviet public, who knows nothing of the events of 1968, is glued to the screen matches USSR-Czechoslovakia, with a passion and intensity exceptional gaming experience, but it does not know the causes. Instead, all Czechs feel the significance of this second victory in the world championship. Although this is the first title since the invasion of the USSR, where hockey had taken root through assistance Czechoslovak revenge is not just sport. This is a sweet revenge against the oppressor.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1972.htm

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10-28-2012, 07:22 PM
  #88
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For this round, I have to admit that I have to be convinced that Tretiak belongs in the Top-8. Please, use other arguments.
I used a bunch of arguments. Tretiak was picked for the All-Star Centennial Team (by 56 experts from 16 countries). Not Holicek, not Dryden, not even Hasek. Sports Illustrated named him to the "greatest hockey team ever" in 2000 (with Gretzky, Bobby Hull, Howe, and Orr).

5 time MVP of the USSR championship, 3 time Olympic Gold winner, 10 time WHC winner, 1974 Summit Series winner, 1979 Challenge Cup winner, 1981 Canada Cup winner, 1983 Super Series winner. Even in the (deservedly) much-maligned 1980 Olympics he was pulled after the first period in what many people believed was the biggest mistake of Tikhonov's coaching career.

Also he personally coached Hasek and Belfour, so clearly those two thought they could learn something from Tretiak.


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10-28-2012, 07:42 PM
  #89
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I used a bunch of arguments. Tretiak was picked for the All-Star Centennial Team (by 56 experts from 16 countries). Not Holicek, not Dryden, not even Hasek. He was the 5 time MVP of the USSR championship, 3 time Olympic Gold winner, 10 time WHC winner, 1974 Summit Series winner, 1979 Challenge Cup winner, 1981 Canada Cup winner, 1983 Super Series winner. Even in the (deservedly) much-maligned 1980 Olympics he was pulled after the first period in what many people believed was the biggest mistake of Tikhonov's coaching career.

Also he personally coached Hasek and Belfour, so clearly those two thought they could learn something from Tretiak.
All-Star Centennial Team's relevance is close to none, considering that quite a few guys of the current round were not eligible. If you're considered the Top Dog by a bunch of people who never considered Terry Sawchuck's or Frank Brimsek's candidature (not even talking about Jacques Plante here), then that award goes straight into the "not worth talking about" category.

Olympic Gold winner is irrelevant as well. Nobody in that group, with the exception of Martin Brodeur, could possibly have done this. Never played up on anything else than the best team.

WHC? Close to irrelevant. Too much outplayed by a guy who isn't up for voting yet. Never played up on anything else than the best team.

1974 Summit Series? Small sample + anybody with a sorta weak opinion on WHA (as a do) won't give much credentials to Tretiak for that one. Also, WHA's first line for that tourney totaled, like, 120 years or so. Tretiak outplayed Gerry Cheevers, to which i say something along the lines of « ... ».

Coach Hasek and Belfour? TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. If it was, François Allaire would, and should, have made his way on some of the lists.

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10-28-2012, 07:42 PM
  #90
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Tretiak's first two World Championships

* refers to games Tretiak played
** refers to game where Tretiak replaced Konovalenko
(these are determined using Chidlovski, potentially room for improvement)

'70 WC - 6 GP 215 MIN / 4-0, 1.12 GAA (unsure who got the decision from the Sweden loss)
1. USSR 11 GA
2. Sweden 21 GA
3. CSSR 30 GA
4. Finland 40 GA
5. East Germany 50 GA
6. Poland 70 GA

Beat Finland twice (2-1, 16-1*), East Germany twice (12-1*, 7-1*), Poland twice (7-0*, 11-0*), CSSR twice (3-1, 5-1), Sweden once (3-1), Lost to Sweden once (4-2**)

Directorate: Urpo Ulonen / Media: Viktor Konovalenko

Tretiak is given a few easy starts to start his career with the national team. After 4 victories, Tretiak replaces an injured Konovalenko against Sweden. Sweden comes out victorious scoring 4 of the 11 goals the Soviets allowed but I'm unsure who gave up the goals. Hopefully a poster more familiar with this game can correct this.

Quote:
Soviet supremacy is not disputed by the Czechs, but Sweden in position to win for the first time a world title at home. Ten thousand people fill the Johanneshov to attend the "final" OK but not a game of great intensity. Purpose "easy" collected by the Russian goalkeeper Konovalenko had yet maintained hope, but it flies with two goals from Petrov and Vikulov eighteen seconds apart. The Swedes have their legs cut off by the double burst, and they give face to the speed of the USSR team.

At its congress in Crans-sur-Sierre (Switzerland) in July 1969 IIHF decided to authorize the presence of professional players - up to nine - the teams participating in the world championships. But Avery Brundage, president of the International Olympic Committee and staunch defender of amateurism now become hypocritical (Soviet hockey players in full-time and their Swedish counterparts earn a little money under the table), threatens to ban any player who encounter a team of professionals. In early January, the International Federation is then reverse, knowing that the president of the federation Earl Dawson, refuses to give the pros.

Consequently, Canada, which was organizing the world championships for the first time in Montreal and Winnipeg, boycotted the competition until further notice. He must find a replacement host country, and Sweden offers for the second consecutive time. The United States, to express their solidarity with Canada refuses their repechage group A, and this is Poland, which is called instead.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1970.htm

'71 WC - 5 GP 241 MIN / 5-0, 1.49 GAA
2. CSSR 20 GA
1. USSR 24 GA
3. Sweden 33 GA
4. Finland 42 GA
5. West Germany 62 GA
6. USA 53 GA

USSR beats W Germany twice (11-2,* 12-2*), Finland twice (8-1*, 10-1*), USA twice (10-2, 7-5), Sweden twice (8-0, 6-3)*, ties CSSR once (3-3), lost to CSSR once (5-2)

Directorate: Holecek / Media: Holecek

Tretiak is still is behind Konovalenko and doesn't play either game against the Czechs. Konovalenko is clearly outplayed by Holecek this year with a tie and a defeat to the Czechs. The Media and Directorate agreed Holecek was the best goalie this year.

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Just put together the group B, the Americans a sense of successful entry by beating Czechoslovakia for the first time in eleven years. However, they are then quickly brought to reason, especially by the Soviets who make a real hockey demonstration during a second period of dream concluded by seven goals.
If the thunder of the opening game has not saved the Americans, it has however become crucial for the Czechs. They are getting used to beat the Soviet team, they feel that she feared, but still dropped too many points on the road. In his last match, Sweden beat the USSR, although it is still pain and conducted score begins when the last third time and captured the gold medal.

Czechoslovakia console with an honorary title, the European Champion. Even if the European Championships themselves no longer exist since 1932, a continental crown is always given to the highest-ranked European team. However, a new regulation has been introduced this year: we establish a separate classification that takes into account only the games against the European teams. This rule falls under the outset, since removing the results against the Americans, Czechoslovakia and the USSR ahead was awarded the European title.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1971.htm


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 10-28-2012 at 07:50 PM. Reason: wrong games marked in '71
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10-28-2012, 08:00 PM
  #91
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So would I, but it just doesn't look like anybody here is interested in Tretiak.

Notice, he didn't win the MVP award 5 times against other goalies. He won it against skaters (Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Ragulin, etc.). That alone should tell you how valuable and good he was.

I seriously can't believe people pick Dryden and Sawchuk and others over Tretiak and his career. Tretiak stole games against superior opponents (vs. Canadiens in 75) and dominated when he was expected to (Sarajevo in 84). A handful of bad games cannot change that.

And yes, Makarov was better than Bossy and Lafleur. If he is not in the Top 15, then people just didn't watch him in his prime.
Just wondering what you mean by "watched him in his prime"?

Do you mean the few times we got to see him play in North America? Or did you actaully see him play as much as many of us saw Bossy and Lafleur?

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10-28-2012, 08:08 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Tretiak's first two World Championships

* refers to games Tretiak played
** refers to game where Tretiak replaced Konovalenko
(these are determined using Chidlovski, potentially room for improvement)

'70 WC - 6 GP 215 MIN / 4-0, 1.12 GAA (unsure who got the decision from the Sweden loss)
1. USSR 11 GA
2. Sweden 21 GA
3. CSSR 30 GA
4. Finland 40 GA
5. East Germany 50 GA
6. Poland 70 GA

Beat Finland twice (2-1, 16-1*), East Germany twice (12-1*, 7-1*), Poland twice (7-0*, 11-0*), CSSR twice (3-1, 5-1), Sweden once (3-1), Lost to Sweden once (4-2**)

Directorate: Urpo Ulonen / Media: Viktor Konovalenko

Tretiak is given a few easy starts to start his career with the national team. After 4 victories, Tretiak replaces an injured Konovalenko against Sweden. Sweden comes out victorious scoring 4 of the 11 goals the Soviets allowed but I'm unsure who gave up the goals. Hopefully a poster more familiar with this game can correct this.


http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1970.htm

'71 WC - 5 GP 241 MIN / 5-0, 1.49 GAA
2. CSSR 20 GA
1. USSR 24 GA
3. Sweden 33 GA
4. Finland 42 GA
5. West Germany 62 GA
6. USA 53 GA

USSR beats W Germany twice (11-2,* 12-2*), Finland twice (8-1*, 10-1*), USA twice (10-2, 7-5), Sweden twice (8-0, 6-3)*, ties CSSR once (3-3), lost to CSSR once (5-2)

Directorate: Holecek / Media: Holecek

Tretiak is still is behind Konovalenko and doesn't play either game against the Czechs. Konovalenko is clearly outplayed by Holecek this year with a tie and a defeat to the Czechs. The Media and Directorate agreed Holecek was the best goalie this year.


http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1971.htm
Tretiak was 18 years old in 1970.

Konovalenko was 32.

Holecek was 26.

Age may have been a factor.

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10-28-2012, 08:29 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Tretiak was 18 years old in 1970.

Konovalenko was 32.

Holecek was 26.

Age may have been a factor.
Certainly was. When I mistakenly thought Tretiak was playing the real competition in '71 at 19 my conclusion was essentially "Holecek clearly outplays Tretiak, but Holecek is 26 and Tretiak 19 so this should be the case."

These first two tourneys are of little significance for Tretiak in the big picture, hence me posting '72 first. But I figured if I'm going to post these I should go back before glossing over them.

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10-28-2012, 08:31 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Tretiak was 18 years old in 1970.

Konovalenko was 32.

Holecek was 26.

Age may have been a factor.
True. In the long Tretiak thread I found and linked to, someone made the point that Tretiak takes slack from some places for not playing so well in the last three games of the 1972 Summit Series. But he was 20 years old at the time, and how many of these other goalies accomplished anything by the age of 20? Patrick Roy's Conn Smythe as a rookie in 1986 is one of the few notable accomplishments by a goalie at that age.

By contrast, Ken Dryden was 23 years old when he won the Conn Smythe in 1971 before his first full regular season.

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10-28-2012, 08:36 PM
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All-Star Centennial Team's relevance is close to none, considering that quite a few guys of the current round were not eligible.
Yeah, and 4 out of 6 players on the IIHF's Centennial team (Kharlamov, Makarov, Fetisov, and Tretiak) all played together on the same domestic team from 1978-1981. So I don't know how useful it is for evaluating players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_Ce..._All-Star_Team

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10-28-2012, 08:42 PM
  #96
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Given the market that I've lived in for past 7 years (formerly New Brunswick, NJ - no longer), it's been a long time since I missed a Devils game and usually go to several per year given the proximity and convenience.

Last year's Devils were not a very defensive team, especially come playoff time. They relied a lot on their forecheck to try to neutralize speed and skill coming at them out high. Most of the rest of their defense was specialized to each team - one trick ponies like New York and Philadelphia were unable or unwilling to make adjustments after realizing the extensive film work Pete DeBoer and Adam Oates and Larry Robinson did on their clubs (which was remarkable, some of the finest preparation I think I've seen). It was tactical sure, and I know you're a Brodeur hater and all, but he gets trashed for being "behind the trap" (which most people don't know what that means or entails...it's just something that's said and glossed over without consequence) and then he gets trashed for...not playing behind it? I don't know, it's hard to tell sometimes if Brodeur - himself - has played a single good game in his career based on some of the input I see around here.

I'll say this, I've seen Brodeur play live more than any other player ever (and no, I'm far from a Devils fan...) probably in the neighborhood of 90 or 100 times and he's one of the smartest, most aware goaltenders I've ever seen...I'm not sure if there's a goalie that has ever understood the game situation at every second better than Brodeur has. And that includes everything about his team and the other team and the officiating and everything.

I'm not very good with statistics and other fun with numbers, but maybe I'll make a little more detailed post about the coaching he's been behind and his awareness of the game. I'd be better at that (I think) anyway...
The Devils were 8th in goals against last year. I guess that's not good if your a Devils fan. They were 11th in goals for, so I guess they weren't offensive or devensive, but still won a lot of games. Hedberg played half as many games as Brodeur, but had a better goals against, better save percentage (maybe he didn't play in home games), a better record and more shutouts.

I'm not a Brodeur hater. Unless, of course, you are a Brodeur lover. Bias goes both ways. I simply do not think Brodeur is as good as most people do. He's had the good fortune to play an entire career with a great defensive team and I feel that has made him appear better than he really is. Its not Like I've rated 30 goalies ahead of him. I ranked him 9th.

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10-28-2012, 09:05 PM
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The Devils were 8th in goals against last year. I guess that's not good if your a Devils fan. They were 11th in goals for, so I guess they weren't offensive or devensive, but still won a lot of games. Hedberg played half as many games as Brodeur, but had a better goals against, better save percentage (maybe he didn't play in home games), a better record and more shutouts.
Brodeur's last good regular season was 2009-10 and even that season was very up and down - e was great early on, terrible in the middle (a lot of Devils fans think it was because he could no longer handle the workload after the injury the previous season and blamed Lemaire), then rebounded towards the end. I think he was a below average starter in the 2010-11 and 2011-12 regular seasons. But 2010-11 was his first season where he wasn't an above average starter.

And this is after 14 straight seasons (1993-94 to 2007-08) of stellar health and above average play.

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10-28-2012, 09:08 PM
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All-Star Centennial Team's relevance is close to none, considering that quite a few guys of the current round were not eligible. If you're considered the Top Dog by a bunch of people who never considered Terry Sawchuck's or Frank Brimsek's candidature (not even talking about Jacques Plante here), then that award goes straight into the "not worth talking about" category.
Again: Sports Illustrated named him to the "greatest hockey team ever" in 2000. Did Sports Illustrated also "never consider" Sawchuk?

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WHC? Close to irrelevant. Too much outplayed by a guy who isn't up for voting yet. Never played up on anything else than the best team.
Detroit was the best team in the 1950s. Does it mean Sawchuk's accomplishments are somehow invalid?

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1974 Summit Series? Small sample + anybody with a sorta weak opinion on WHA (as a do) won't give much credentials to Tretiak for that one.
Alas, all international tournaments are "small sample size." So you have a weak opinion on Bobby Hull? Or Paul Henderson, Frank Mahovlich and Pat Stapleton that won the Summit Series just two years prior? Did "Henderson scores for Canada" get old so quickly?

Moving right along

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10-28-2012, 09:24 PM
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Again: Sports Illustrated named him to the "greatest hockey team ever" in 2000. Did Sports Illustrated also "never consider" Sawchuk?


Detroit was the best team in the 1950s. Does it mean Sawchuk's accomplishments are somehow invalid?


Alas, all international tournaments are "small sample size." So you have a weak opinion on Bobby Hull? Or Paul Henderson, Frank Mahovlich and Pat Stapleton that won the Summit Series just two years prior? Did "Henderson scores for Canada" get old so quickly?

Moving right along
1 : SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. That's basically the same than asking my opinion on knitting. Or Astrophysics. Or Pre-Machaut litterature.

2 : So what? You're gonna tell me Sawchuck should've been voted last in vote 1, and should be borderline Top-3 candidate in this round? Tell me something I don't know instead. Since I try to be somewhat coherent, I have to rank Tretiak accordingly.

3 : Hull, Mahovlich, Stapleton and Henderson aren't up for voting this round. I don't think they will be at any point, either.

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10-28-2012, 11:21 PM
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Tretiak starting at the World Championships through the first three POTY seasons ('72-'76)

This accounts for the first 5 of the 11 seasons Tretiak played as the primary starter for the Soviets at the World Championships.

* refers to games Tretiak did not play
** refers to games Tretiak came in relief of the starting goalie

'72 WC - 8GP 430 MINS / 5-1-2, 2.09 GAA
1. CSSR 16 GA / 72 GF
2. USSR 17 GA / 78 GF
3. Sweden 33 GA / 49 GF
4. Finland 48 GA / 47 GF
5. West Germany 76 GA / 21 GF
6. Switzerland 96 GA / 19 GF

Beat: West Germany twice (11-0, 7-0*), Finland twice (10-2, 7-2), Switzerland twice (10-2*, 14-0), Sweden once (11-2)
Tied: CSSR once (3-3) Sweden once (3-3)
Lost: CSSR once (2-3)

Directorate Best Goalie: Jorma Valtonen (FIN) / Media: Holecek

Tretiak's first tournament without Konovalenko ends in bitter defeat. Going into April 20th, the Soviets were 7-0-1 (tying Czechs) winning by at least 7 goals each time. After dropping their rematch 3-2 to the Czechs the Soviets closed the tourney tying Sweden. After throttling everyone else, Tretiak and the Soviets stumble twice against Holecek's Czechs and tie in the final game against the Swedes before taking home a Silver medal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notes from Passionhockey
The world championship is held for the first time separately during an Olympic year, which allows to consider the admission of professionals at the World without having to worry about the approval of the IOC. Fever wins the host city, Prague. Nine thousand spectators attending matches average, but everyone waits while two meetings, those between the USSR and Czechoslovakia. Whole country, and half of Europe, for the Czechoslovak team vibrate, which hosts the competition for the first time since the Prague Spring.

This championship is experienced very differently by the two people involved. In the USSR, Nikolai Ozerov TV commentator acted as if nothing had happened and continues to talk about "our enemies and friends", referring to the Czechoslovak hockey, the term used for the comrades of the Warsaw Pact countries, even if those they are not at all lively friendly feelings. The Soviet public, who knows nothing of the events of 1968, is glued to the screen matches USSR-Czechoslovakia, with a passion and intensity exceptional gaming experience, but it does not know the causes. Instead, all Czechs feel the significance of this second victory in the world championship. Although this is the first title since the invasion of the USSR, where hockey had taken root through assistance Czechoslovak revenge is not just sport. This is a sweet revenge against the oppressor.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1972.htm



'73 WC - 7GP 420 MIN / 7-0, 2.00 GAA
1. USSR 18 GA / 100 GF
3. CSSR 20 GA / 48 GF
2. Sweden 23 GA / 53 GF
4. Finland 39 GA / 24 GF
5. Poland 76 GA / 14 GF
6. West Germany 82 GA / 19 GF

Beat: West Germany twice (17-1, 18-2*), Finland twice (8-2*, 9-1), Poland twice (9-3, 20-0*), CSSR twice (3-2, 4-2), Sweden twice (6-1, 6-4)

Directorate: Holecek / Media: Holecek

Tretiak goes undefeated in his second year without Konovalenko and defeats the Czechs in two close games allowing two goals each time. Tretiak played very well earning the Gold on home ice and winning the close games, but the Soviet's top line of Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov stole the show. They scored 23, 34, and 29 points with the 4th place scorer being a Swede Mats Ahlberg only recording 16 points. Holecek's performance against the Soviets deservedly earns the best goalie awards, but this doesn't provide an indictment for Tretiak's performance.

Quote:
After dropping the title to Prague the previous year, the USSR, led by a super-troika (Kharlamov, Petrov-Mikhailov) at the top of his form, demonstrates the importance of change at home, scoring ten goals of average without allowing a single point to his opponents. In the match against Poland, Aleksandr Martinyuk even registered eight goals! Both games against Czechoslovakia are nevertheless still tight and tense, and the first of them already decisive drift even in a brawl after a foul on goalkeeper Jiri Holecek seven minutes from the end. Coaches Vladimir Kostka and Vsevolod Bobrov grieve both arbitrators have lost control of the situation in the second and third players that have sought to attack the man rather than the puck. They promise a return match is cleaner, and it will, but without issue, because the games are made.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1973.htm



'74 WC - 8GP 440 MIN / 7-1, 1.64 GAA .934 SV%
1. USSR 18 GA / 64 GF
2. CSSR 20 GA / 57 GF
3. Sweden 24 GA / 38 GF
4. Finland 39 GA / 34 GF
5. Poland 64 GA / 22 GF
6. East Germany 71 GA / 21 GF

Directorate: Tretiak / Media: Tretiak

Beat: E Germany twice (5-0, 10-3*), Finland twice (7-1, 6-1), Poland twice (8-3*, 17-0), Sweden twice (3-1, 3-1), CSSR once (3-1)
Lost: CSSR once (2-7)

Tretiak wins both best goalie awards in his 5th World Championship (3rd as the primary starter) less than a week before his 22nd birthday. He loses the first meeting with the Czechs badly 7-2, but holds them to just one goal in their second meeting. After outscoring their opposition by 47 goals in '73, the Soviets only outscore the Czechs by 7 goals this year. Without the imbalanced scoring, the Soviets earn the Gold in closer games this year and Tretiak's play earns more respect winning both awards.

Quote:
Not at all impressive during the first test (3-2 win over Sweden), the Czechs succeeded yet three days later to crush the USSR 7-2. Their engine is a "mini-line" consists of three players less than 1.80m, the center of Brno ZKL, Richard Farda, and two wingers Pardubice, Vladimír Martinec and Bohuslav Štastný right to left. This trio makes up for its small size with excellent technique, especially the smallest of the three, Martinec, which will be agreed at the second match against the USSR by a high stick, or at least high enough to reach the level nose.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1974.htm


'75 WC - 8GP 449 MIN / 8-0, 2.41 GAA
2. CSSR 19 GA / 55 GF
1. USSR 23 GA / 90 GF
3. Sweden 34 GA / 51 GF
4. Finland 34 GA / 36 GF
5. Poland 78 GA / 18 GF
6. USA 84 GA / 22 GF

Beat: USA twice (10-5, 13-1), Finland twice (8-4, 5-2), Poland twice (13-2*, 15-1*), CSSR twice (5-2, 4-1), Sweden twice (4-1, 13-4)

Directorate: Holecek / Media: Tretiak

Dominant performance by Soviets and Tretiak winning every game. Tretiak sat out against Poland an allowed more goals in blowouts against the offensively weak teams than he did against the stronger Czechs and Swedes. The Soviets outscored the second-place Czechs by a healthy margin and the Directorate preferred Holecek's performance with the Czechs who allowed the fewest goals against in the tournament. The Media picked Tretiak's undefeated Gold-winning performance. Holecek again may have earned his nod, but it's hard to slight Tretiak's work with the Soviets especially in the most important games, strong offense or not.

Quote:
The USSR has in fact never been in danger. But the Czechs have tried to adopt more physical game, but if this festival bodychecks helped keep the atmosphere in the stands, it did not disrupt the Soviet team, now accustomed to this style of hockey after his confrontation with selections from Canadian professionals.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1975.htm



'76 WC - 10GP 577 MIN / 6-2-1 1.98 GAA
[Format switched from six teams playing each other twice to "Eight teams took part in the main tournament, with each team first playing each other once. The four best teams then took part in a medal play off, and the teams placed 5-8 took part in a relegation play-off. The teams took the results from the first round through to the second round with them."]

1. CSSR 14 GA / 67 GF
2. USSR 23 GA / 50 GF
3. Sweden 29 GA / 36 GF
5. Finland 41 GA / 35 GF
6. West Germany 41 GA / 26 GF
4. USA 42 GA / 24 GF
7. Poland 47 GA / 32 GF
8. East Germany 52 GA / 19 GF

Beat: USA twice (5-2, 7-1), East Germany (4-0), Finland (8-1), Sweden (6-1), West Germany (8-2)
Tied: CSSR (3-3)
Lost: Poland (6-4**), CSSR (3-2), Sweden (4-3)

Directorate: Holecek / Media: Holecek

For the first time in his career, Tretiak plays behind a Soviet team that doesn't finish first in scoring and the results of this are the second WC Silver of Tretiak's career and the first since '72. Tretiak replaced Aleksandr Sidelnikov after he gave up 4 goals in the Soviets embarrassing 6-4 loss to Poland. After that the Soviets playing Tretiak every game finished the first round of the tournament also losing 3-2 to the Czechs. It was the final round playing CSSR, Sweden, and USA where Tretiak stumbled losing to Sweden and tying the Czechs. Holecek and the Czechs dominated this tournament winning every game aside from the tie with Soviets in the final. Holecek clearly earned both of these awards and with a suspended Petrov, the super-troika-less Tretiak was unable to lead the Soviets to their usual Gold medal.

Quote:
The Soviets had defeated the Poles 16-1 two months before the Olympics and have a superiority complex against the team that plays penniless on skates off age. They dominate the game but cannot cross the wall Polish Andrzej Tkacz...The other hero is Katowice Wieslaw Jobczyk with his hat-trick. The poor Russian goalkeeper Aleksandr Sidelnikov was released after conceding four goals.

Czechoslovakia world champion thanks to the perfect balance achieved by the coaches and Karel Gut Jano Starsi. Men experience as Jiri Holecek, Jirí Holík and the defensive duo Oldrich Machac - František Pospíšil present in all critical situations, were joined by the new generation led by Peter and Marian Štastný, or Milan Nový. The USSR, deprived of its super-troika by the sidelining of Vladimir Petrov for disciplinary reasons, cannot do better than saving his silver medal far from his habits of domination.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...ondial1976.htm


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