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Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:06 PM
  #226
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Billy Smith 3rd? wow... I had everyone but Vachon ahead

and how does Giacomin get 14 N/R? he had 2 1st and 3 2nd team AS! Thats AS MUCH as: Smith, Fuhr, and Vachon combined. Put him on the Isles or Oilers and he gets 4 Cups or MORE
For me it was a combination of earning those AS team selections against somewhat weak competition, and more importantly, having the worst playoff resume we've seen yet. From looking at your rankings of Fuhr and Smith you value the playoffs less and regular season more than most of the other voters do.

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12-17-2012, 12:12 PM
  #227
pappyline
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Also surprised to see Smith make it. I had Smith at #7 and Fuhr at #8. Lack of support for Worsley and Lumley disappoints me.

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12-17-2012, 12:17 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Also surprised to see Smith make it. I had Smith at #7 and Fuhr at #8. Lack of support for Worsley and Lumley disappoints me.
I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about these two in the thread for the next round.

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12-17-2012, 12:22 PM
  #229
Mike Farkas
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I just don't understand where all the Smith support came from? Surely my "anticipation proclamation" wasn't enough to push a tandem goalie over the top of everyone...I'll re-state my disappointment in this section of rankings pending further review or explanation. Now I see relative scrubs like Tim Thomas and Gerry Cheevers on the waiting list and I pray this thing doesn't go off the rails. Jiri Holecek was adventurous enough for me...

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12-17-2012, 12:28 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Now I see relative scrubs like Tim Thomas and Gerry Cheevers on the waiting list and I pray this thing doesn't go off the rails.
you and me both.

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12-17-2012, 12:28 PM
  #231
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Hap Holmes, with 3 Stanley Cups on 3 different teams (and an actual NHA/NHL resume) to Lehman's 1 (and not much of an NHL resume at all, unless being 40 with the worst stats in the league has significant value to someone) during their career overlap, gets less than half the votes. I still find it disappointing that Lehman is seemingly getting such legs out of those PCHA all-star nominations.

While Smith and Fuhr are perhaps higher than I expected (or would have voted), they're only separated by 10 points in the voting, which ultimately seems about right to me, either way.

Also always unfortunate to see the beat down that Vachon gets for playing in an era with Dryden, Resch, Cheevers, Smith, Parent, Larocque, Esposito, etc. Not that I think he should be much higher in the list (competition is great), but it's hard to see him last.

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12-17-2012, 01:19 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I just don't understand where all the Smith support came from? Surely my "anticipation proclamation" wasn't enough to push a tandem goalie over the top of everyone...I'll re-state my disappointment in this section of rankings pending further review or explanation. Now I see relative scrubs like Tim Thomas and Gerry Cheevers on the waiting list and I pray this thing doesn't go off the rails. Jiri Holecek was adventurous enough for me...
As someone who had Holecek just inside his Top-20, supported Smith very highly and openly in the last round, had Thomas and Cheevers on his short-list to come up this round, has seen the 24 ranked goaltenders come from his Top-26, and has seen 36 of his Top-37 goaltenders come up for discussion (I guess I went Luongo when everyone else went Vanbiesbrouck), I don't see this as coming off of the rails at all.

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12-17-2012, 01:38 PM
  #233
tarheelhockey
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One thing to consider when talking about the quality of candidates is that we seemed to all be in agreement after Round 1 (the master list) that it was tough to come up with 60 legit all-time great goalies. Somewhere around 30 or 40, there were warts on every candidate. So we should probably expect to see a continued precipitous drop in the quality of new additions.

Fortunately that makes our job a little easier, since we really only need to identify the top 4 at a time.

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12-17-2012, 01:55 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hap Holmes, with 3 Stanley Cups on 3 different teams (and an actual NHA/NHL resume) to Lehman's 1 (and not much of an NHL resume at all, unless being 40 with the worst stats in the league has significant value to someone) during their career overlap, gets less than half the votes. I still find it disappointing that Lehman is seemingly getting such legs out of those PCHA all-star nominations.
This paragraph might have more credibility if you had the correct number of Cups for Hap Holmes.

I mean, sorry to be a dink, but "4 Cups with 4 Teams" is pretty much the first thing anyone says when they talk about Holmes, and it was mentioned multiple times since he's become a candidate.

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12-17-2012, 02:07 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This paragraph might have more credibility if you had the correct number of Cups for Hap Holmes.

I mean, sorry to be a dink, but "4 Cups with 4 Teams" is pretty much the first thing anyone says when they talk about Holmes, and it was mentioned multiple times since he's become a candidate.
Not to also be a dink, but aren't the Arenas basically the resurrected Blueshirts (i.e. the "evolutionary step" between the Blueshirts and what would eventually become the Maple Leafs)?


Last edited by Doctor No: 12-17-2012 at 02:41 PM. Reason: Flaming
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12-17-2012, 02:14 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Somewhere around 30 or 40, there were warts on every candidate.
I'd say the warts happened a lot earlier than 30 or 40!


It's just the nature of the position though. When the goal is to not let something happen as opposed to making something happen, it's often less about what the player brought to the table than it is about what performances would we have liked to have forgotten.

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12-17-2012, 02:42 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
As someone who had Holecek just inside his Top-20, supported Smith very highly and openly in the last round, had Thomas and Cheevers on his short-list to come up this round, has seen the 24 ranked goaltenders come from his Top-26, and has seen 36 of his Top-37 goaltenders come up for discussion (I guess I went Luongo when everyone else went Vanbiesbrouck), I don't see this as coming off of the rails at all.
Amen to that, except that the 24 are, hilariously enough, the top 24 from my original list. But I'm only at 35/37 for the second one.

And Fuhr over Smith would've been a travesty.

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12-17-2012, 03:08 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Amen to that, except that the 24 are, hilariously enough, the top 24 from my original list. But I'm only at 35/37 for the second one.

And Fuhr over Smith would've been a travesty.
Haha! I wonder which one of the 27 of us is going to have the most vanilla-looking list at the end of it. I bet there will be more discussion about people's #41-60 than there will be about their ranked goalies!

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12-17-2012, 03:22 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Haha! I wonder which one of the 27 of us is going to have the most vanilla-looking list at the end of it. I bet there will be more discussion about people's #41-60 than there will be about their ranked goalies!
in the defense project it was me, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was me this time too!

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12-17-2012, 03:25 PM
  #240
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
It's just the nature of the position though. When the goal is to not let something happen as opposed to making something happen, it's often less about what the player brought to the table than it is about what performances would we have liked to have forgotten.
Interesting observation. I do think we've tackled a much more difficult subject than when we did the defensemen list. If the Vezina hadn't been a stat-based award for so long, it would be easier; and likewise if 1AS weren't so closely tied to the Vezina. And then, not having reliable save% numbers for such a long time.

I'm kinda glad we did this one in between defensemen and forwards.

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12-17-2012, 05:21 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I just don't understand where all the Smith support came from? Surely my "anticipation proclamation" wasn't enough to push a tandem goalie over the top of everyone...I'll re-state my disappointment in this section of rankings pending further review or explanation. Now I see relative scrubs like Tim Thomas and Gerry Cheevers on the waiting list and I pray this thing doesn't go off the rails. Jiri Holecek was adventurous enough for me...
And the other 2-time Vezina winner & Conn Smythe winner's in this group are.........

Scrubs? Really?

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12-17-2012, 05:25 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
in the defense project it was me, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was me this time too!
So what's going on here?

Did everyone just copy from the answer sheet (ATD)?

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12-17-2012, 05:29 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
So what's going on here?

Did everyone just copy from the answer sheet (ATD)?
I think that the traditional ATD order had a huge influence on Round 1 voting to the point where there is actually much less diversity on these lists than there was during the defensemen project.

Thankfully, the traditional ATD order seems to have little effect, or at least much less effect, on the final Round 2 voting.

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12-17-2012, 05:37 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
So what's going on here?

Did everyone just copy from the answer sheet (ATD)?
that's kind of a big leap you made.

I've just noticed that, with some notable exceptions, my views tend to match consensus.

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12-17-2012, 06:22 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm a little surprised to see Billy Smith leapfrog over both Fuhr and Lehman - if for no other reason, than the results of the previous round. Didn't seem like anyone made a really strong case for him.

Guess we're maxing out at 23 voters now, which is fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
What in the hell? How did Billy Smith get ahead of Fuhr? I'm sorry, but that just strikes me as incorrect. He's better than I initially thought, but I didn't think he would go this round, or would be the #4 guy at best...
I didn't vote in round 5 and voted in round 6.

I had him pretty high in round 6th -- 2nd, behind George Hainsworth.

The reason was quite simple : considering him a tandem goalie, when he played the totality of the significant part of his career with the SAME coach, who was a proponent of the Tandem system, was a wee bit unfair. If he would have played in another context, or just with another coach who would be prone to rely on one netminder, I could have had a better "read" on his capacities as the go-to goalie.

Other points :

- The fact above explains why I didn't gave as much consideration to Lorne Worsley. Not much below Smith, but below nonetheless.

- I didn't vote Fuhr in because I realized I had him to high in my initial list, and that his so-called great season was pretty much the result of playing lots of games in an era were most goalies didn't.

- I ranked Lumley low because I'm convinced he was a serious case of catching lightning in a bottle ALL THE WHILE being in a very favorable context to do so AND that I'm pretty convinced he was, for most part of his career, the 5th best goalie in the league. What tipped the balance between Lumley and Vachon is how they did in a non-favorable context.

- I had Tiny Thompson 6th. I stand by my ranking. The successes he didn't had (and should've had) are reminescent of Lumley's. But Lumley was, at some point, still pretty young. Not being considered Top Goalie when you play for TECHNICALLY Top Team is probably not a big No-No at this point however. I just think there was more separation between Thompson and Worters than there is in the final version of the rankings. And not that much between Thompson and his somewhat-contemporary Alec Connel.

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12-29-2012, 11:29 PM
  #246
TheDevilMadeMe
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Here are the results of vote 7. There were 21 out of a possible 27 voters this round

PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8thN/R
Grant Fuhr1381401220101
Gump Worsley108434321211
Harry Lumley98145321302
Chuck Rayner74062113026
Hap Holmes67041501217
Ed Giacomin59202061208
Curtis Joseph51030025317
Tom Barrasso48003210645
Rogie Vachon46011224038
Alec Connell360011340111
John Vanbiesbrouck190011001612
Tim Thomas110001011117
Gerry Cheevers10000000120

If round 6 was the round of the era goalies, round 7 was the round of the Original 6 goalies.

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Old
12-30-2012, 12:04 AM
  #247
tarheelhockey
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I had a very different order, but nevertheless I like our top 4 here. All 4 inductees are worthy IMO.

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12-30-2012, 01:04 AM
  #248
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I am shocked that Holmes went un-ranked on more ballots this round than the last.

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12-30-2012, 01:11 AM
  #249
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I am shocked that Holmes went un-ranked on more ballots this round than the last.
I guess that would explain how Lumley leaped over Holmes and how Giacomin made it close.

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12-30-2012, 01:38 AM
  #250
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I am shocked that Holmes went un-ranked on more ballots this round than the last.
Checked the votes and this is what happened:

5 voters left Holmes off their ballot in vote 6, 4 did so again this time. 1 voted him 4th this time. Nothing strange there.

So that leaves 3 voters who ranked Holmes in Vote 6 but not in Vote 7. 1 ranked him 6th in vote 6, 1 ranked him 7th in vote 6, 1 ranked him 8th in vote 6. Unusual, but nothing too shocking. Just several small downgrades that added up, it seems.

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