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Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:41 PM
  #151
Nalyd Psycho
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Still don't see how a guy who couldn't outplay Jeff Hackett, Roman Turek and Manny Fernandez is a top 20 goalie...

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11-27-2012, 10:10 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Still don't see how a guy who couldn't outplay Jeff Hackett, Roman Turek and Manny Fernandez is a top 20 goalie...
I can counter rhetoric with rhetoric - I still don't see how a guy who outplayed Dominik Hasek is barely a top 20 goalie.

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11-27-2012, 10:13 PM
  #153
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Point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Still don't see how a guy who couldn't outplay Jeff Hackett, Roman Turek and Manny Fernandez is a top 20 goalie...
Point should have been raised and developed before voting ended.

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11-27-2012, 10:18 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Point should have been raised and developed before voting ended.
I believe it was brought up before. Along with Turco outplaying Belfour.

Seems like a vote for the longevity advocates.

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11-27-2012, 11:09 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Still don't see how a guy who couldn't outplay Jeff Hackett, Roman Turek and Manny Fernandez is a top 20 goalie...
You're focusing on the down years of Belfour's career, which is definitely a factor. But look at the good years - his All-Star record could be compared to Tony Esposito's when you take competition into account. I think that for about 75% of Belfour's career, he was on Martin Brodeur level, and that's no slight to Brodeur. The reason Brodeur is rightfully ranked quite a bit higher is that Brodeur was basically always on that level. Belfour had a tendency to have several years of excellence, then completely lose it for a season, move to a different team, and then excel for 4-5 more years.

Belfour was also very good in the playoffs for Dallas- both statistically and from watching him.

I had Belfour 3rd this round. I think this is a decent place for him - I really do view him as quite a bit closer to Brodeur than he is to the 5th best goalie of his era (Barrasso? Cujo?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I believe it was brought up before. Along with Turco outplaying Belfour.

Seems like a vote for the longevity advocates.
I thought Belfour's peak, longevity, and durability all stood out this round.

His issue was consistency, but at this point every goalie has a downside.


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11-28-2012, 12:23 AM
  #156
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Point should have been raised and developed before voting ended.
I did raise it, if no one cares about points I make, I'm not going to waste my time banging it into the ground.

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11-28-2012, 12:25 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're focusing on the down years of Belfour's career, which is definitely a factor. But look at the good years - his All-Star record could be compared to Tony Esposito's when you take competition into account. I think that for about 75% of Belfour's career, he was on Martin Brodeur level, and that's no slight to Brodeur. The reason Brodeur is rightfully ranked quite a bit higher is that Brodeur was basically always on that level. Belfour had a tendency to have several years of excellence, then completely lose it for a season, move to a different team, and then excel for 4-5 more years.
With the exception of his first two years in Dallas, he never clearly out played back-ups.

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11-28-2012, 01:00 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
With the exception of his first two years in Dallas, he never clearly out played back-ups.
I see him badly outperforming ever backup he had in Chicago who was not named Hasek from 1990-91 to 1993-94. Hackett looked good but in only 7 games in 1995. Belfour played mediocre hockey in 1995-96 and 1996-97, then signed with Dallas in 1997-98 and made a huge impact in Dallas becoming a true contender. I get that he didn't statistically outplay his backups in terms of GAA and save percentage later in Dallas, but it's a tough comparison when Belfour is playing 60 games and his backups are playing 20. And I do remember that when Manny Fernandez went to Minnesota from Dallas, he had been widely considered the best backup in the league

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11-28-2012, 01:27 AM
  #159
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Wow, I'm kind of surprised. Esposito and Parent would have been my 1 and 2, and they ended up 4th and 5th.

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11-28-2012, 06:50 AM
  #160
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Defensive systems - something that Belfour did play behind for a good portion of his career - don't leave a lot of room for differential between goalies stats-wise. You have to look at his whole body of work vs. the backups whole body of work. Talent evaluation must come into play also. Do you have a Cechmanek or do you have competence at the highest level. With Belfour, and I'm as sensitive to goalies being behind defensive teams as anyone, I'm very confident in his individual abilities over the long haul.

He also faced 3 top-6 goalies for his awards for a lot of years. Tough sleddin'...

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11-28-2012, 07:41 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I did raise it, if no one cares about points I make, I'm not going to waste my time banging it into the ground.
I don't think your point was ignored, FWIW. Belfour simply had a few excellent backups.

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11-28-2012, 08:20 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I don't think your point was ignored, FWIW. Belfour simply had a few excellent backups.
I would assume a top 15 goalie all-time would be able to outplay any backups (except of course for Hasek, who had no business being a backup).

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11-28-2012, 08:33 AM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I would assume a top 15 goalie all-time would be able to outplay any backups (except of course for Hasek, who had no business being a backup).
Did Hackett and Turco have any business being backups? Did Fernandez during his peak?

I would think that most solid NHL starters would put up strong statistics if placed in a backup role. That doesn't make them better than the starter, if the starter is a Vezina contender.

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11-28-2012, 08:51 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I don't think your point was ignored, FWIW. Belfour simply had a few excellent backups.
But a top 20 goalie should be able to outplay a borderline top 100 goalie (Turco) quite easily. Too good to be back-ups or not, they weren't good enough to be outplaying a top 20 goalie.

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11-28-2012, 08:54 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Did Hackett and Turco have any business being backups? Did Fernandez during his peak?
That was my mentality when I put him towards the top-half of the middle of my ballot. The Eagle landed (yay, pun) a little bit higher than I would have agreed, but I don't think the Hackett/Turco/Turek/Fernandez thing was glossed over; we discussed it.

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11-28-2012, 08:58 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
But a top 20 goalie should be able to outplay a borderline top 100 goalie (Turco) quite easily. Too good to be back-ups or not, they weren't good enough to be outplaying a top 20 goalie.
Not necessarily. Jose Theodore is probably borderline, too, but we can go over a pretty big list of names that didn't outplay him at his highest point, starting with #1.

Turco is one of only five goalies to lead the league in save percentage multiple times since it became an official statistic. I don't see any problem with him holding an edge over Belfour towards the end in Dallas.

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11-28-2012, 09:23 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Not necessarily. Jose Theodore is probably borderline, too, but we can go over a pretty big list of names that didn't outplay him at his highest point, starting with #1.

Turco is one of only five goalies to lead the league in save percentage multiple times since it became an official statistic. I don't see any problem with him holding an edge over Belfour towards the end in Dallas.
Agreed. Goalies are streaky with highs (like Theodore) and lows like relief pitchers. All goalies have been benched at one time or another. Just because a guy gets benched for a quality backup like Turco means and says nothing about the overall quality of his career.

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11-28-2012, 11:14 AM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
But a top 20 goalie should be able to outplay a borderline top 100 goalie (Turco) quite easily. Too good to be back-ups or not, they weren't good enough to be outplaying a top 20 goalie.
That's pretty obviously false. In the early '00s, Turco was good enough to outplay pretty much everybody, including three top 10 goalies.

2000-01 to 2002-03 (min. 50 GP):

1. Marty Turco: 112 GP, .928
2. Roman Cechmanek: 163 GP, .923
3. Sean Burke: 144 GP, .922
4. Patrick Roy: 188 GP, .920
8. Dominik Hasek: 132 GP, .918
21. Martin Brodeur: 218 GP, .908
22. Ed Belfour: 185 GP, .908

Turco should have won the 2002-03 Vezina (even if you disagree he at least made the 2AST), and we're talking about the two seasons directly before that. Anybody who leads the league in save percentage twice in three years and puts up a save percentage .021 above league average in a 112 game sample is obviously far more than a "quality backup", and is performing at a level that is well above top 100 all-time territory.

There's also the fact that at roughly the same age as Turco was stealing Belfour's job in Dallas, Patrick Roy wasn't doing any better than David Aebischer in Colorado, while Martin Brodeur was putting up the same numbers as Scott Clemmensen and Kevin Weekes, after having been "outplayed" earlier by Corey Schwab and would subsequently be outperformed statistically by Yann Danis and Johan Hedberg. None of that really influenced the rankings for those other guys at all.

Quite honestly I think you're over-scrutinizing Belfour's record a bit without taking into account just how small the margins really are between goaltenders at the top level, how much of an impact variance can have over the small sample size of 15-20 games by a backup goalie, and just how good Belfour's backups were throughout his career (all of Belfour's primary playing partners up until the 2004-05 lockout played over 300 games in the NHL, with the single exception of Jimmy Waite in 1992-93).

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11-28-2012, 11:42 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
(all of Belfour's primary playing partners up until the 2004-05 lockout played over 300 games in the NHL, with the single exception of Jimmy Waite in 1992-93).
And let's not forget who Jimmy Waite "outplayed" to get that job!

edit: If I may say so, I think the compared-to-backups card has been overplayed in this project for the exact reasons that we're specifying right now, plus the fact that we swing wildly between leagues with zero backups to leagues where tandem goaltending is the norm. Seems to me that this whole issue should really be peripheral to examining the candidates' individual performances (unless they get to the point of losing their job completely).

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11-28-2012, 11:55 AM
  #170
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Something that the kids don't know the trap was played by Bowman's canadiens in the 70's something not told by today's generation.

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11-28-2012, 04:49 PM
  #171
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Something that the kids don't know the trap was played by Bowman's canadiens in the 70's something not told by today's generation.
Yeah, that hasn't been referenced at all...since the last thread...

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=17

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11-28-2012, 05:27 PM
  #172
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Not necessarily. Jose Theodore is probably borderline, too, but we can go over a pretty big list of names that didn't outplay him at his highest point, starting with #1.

Turco is one of only five goalies to lead the league in save percentage multiple times since it became an official statistic. I don't see any problem with him holding an edge over Belfour towards the end in Dallas.
Virtually every goalie who plays for a Hitchcock team has outrageous numbers.

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11-28-2012, 07:32 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Not necessarily. Jose Theodore is probably borderline, too, but we can go over a pretty big list of names that didn't outplay him at his highest point, starting with #1.

Turco is one of only five goalies to lead the league in save percentage multiple times since it became an official statistic. I don't see any problem with him holding an edge over Belfour towards the end in Dallas.
My problem isn't with Turco per say. it's with the trend of him rarely outplaying back-ups. It should be very clear that he benefited from the teams he played on.

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12-07-2012, 12:11 PM
  #174
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Here are the results of vote 5. There were 21 out of a possible 27 voters this round

PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8thN/R
Bernie Parent136568100010
Roy Worters135925130100
Johnny Bower115362341110
Jiri Holecek92251412213
Tiny Thompson57002252334
Hugh Lehman54110243127
George Hainsworth51111401157
Grant Fuhr40000127308
Billy Smith300012113211
Gump Worsley260010034310
Harry Lumley190001112313


Last edited by seventieslord: 12-07-2012 at 12:22 PM.
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12-07-2012, 12:33 PM
  #175
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Worters and Parent were neck in neck. Parent took it in the end because he had fewer doubters. just two votes outside the top-3, as opposed to five for Worters.

Bower was all alone in 3rd, with no chance of catching Worters/Parent, or being caught.

Ditto Holecek in 4th.

The three in 5th/6th/7th are going to be very interesting next round. These are all guys who had impressive regular season resumes, and relatively weaker playoff records. I had them Lehman/Hainsworth/Thompson but am open to changing.

As Hainsworth's biggest critic, you may be surprised to know that I had him 6th which actually put me in the top half of votes for him (7 had him higher than me, 13 lower). I think that those of us who have taken a critical look at his record have successfully pushed him down to where he belongs from a status where some people had him in their top-10. If he didn't have a long, successful senior career I would say he should go down another round yet, but those meaningful 8 years make him probably a deserving inductee for round 6.

Fuhr pulls ahead of Smith, for now, but hopefully they both get a more thorough comparison this time around.

Gump Worsley. Is he more of a Lehman/Hainsworth/Thompson? or more of a Smith/Fuhr?

Harry Lumley. I know he looked weak compared to these guys but there is lots to like there, too. Wonder how serious a look he'll get this time.

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