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Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:40 PM
  #176
TheDevilMadeMe
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I don't know what disappoints me more - down to 21 total votes this time, or Lehman getting left off 7 of the ballots.

I am happy with the 4 who got in though - all 4 are deserving of top 20 status IMO. Seeing Esposito and Parent back to back on the final list is probably fitting.

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12-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #177
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A bit of trivia, fun but not terribly important at this stage.

According to our list, the weakest period in hockey history for top-20 goalies was 1935-1943, with Worters handing off the baton to Durnan as the only active legends. Tiny Thompson was the only other candidate from this time period in Round 5.

In NHL history, the weakest period was 1982-84. Hasek and Tretiak were playing on the other side of the world, and only an end-of-career Esposito was still active in the NHL. Fuhr and Smith are nominees going into next round.

The strongest period was 1967-73, due in large part to generational overlap caused by the doubling of roster spots. At the same time that Dryden, Espo and Parent came into the league we also had Plante, Hall, Sawchuk and Bower still kicking around. Tretiak and Holecek were still active in Europe as well. In the 1969-70 season, NINE of our 20 listees were playing at the same time!

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12-07-2012, 01:06 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
A bit of trivia, fun but not terribly important at this stage.

According to our list, the weakest period in hockey history for top-20 goalies was 1935-1943, with Worters handing off the baton to Durnan as the only active legends. Tiny Thompson was the only other candidate from this time period in Round 5.

In NHL history, the weakest period was 1982-84. Hasek and Tretiak were playing on the other side of the world, and only an end-of-career Esposito was still active in the NHL. Fuhr and Smith are nominees going into next round.

The strongest period was 1967-73, due in large part to generational overlap caused by the doubling of roster spots. At the same time that Dryden, Espo and Parent came into the league we also had Plante, Hall, Sawchuk and Bower still kicking around. Tretiak and Holecek were still active in Europe as well. In the 1969-70 season, NINE of our 20 listees were playing at the same time!
The fact that our list is a bit light on post-1980 goalies in general so far (maybe justifably?) makes me happy Belfour went when he did, despite his flaws.

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12-07-2012, 02:59 PM
  #179
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Crap, sorry for completely missing the deadline (thought it was after the weekend).

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12-07-2012, 06:58 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know what disappoints me more - down to 21 total votes this time, or Lehman getting left off 7 of the ballots.

I am happy with the 4 who got in though - all 4 are deserving of top 20 status IMO. Seeing Esposito and Parent back to back on the final list is probably fitting.
I was disappointed to see Hainsworth left off 7 ballots.

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12-07-2012, 10:55 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The fact that our list is a bit light on post-1980 goalies in general so far (maybe justifably?) makes me happy Belfour went when he did, despite his flaws.
Maybe it's because the 80's goalies don't belong and most modern goalies don't have enough of their resume built yet...

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12-08-2012, 06:49 AM
  #182
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Interesting

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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Maybe it's because the 80's goalies don't belong and most modern goalies don't have enough of their resume built yet...
Last time I checked Roy and Hasek were #1 and 2 on the list, while Belfour snuck in well before his time.

Basically comparison by proxy as opposed to merit. Specifically compared to Roy and Hasek none of the others standout but there was a need to include a third so ......

As for modern goalies, very few will rank highly compared to pre 1980s goalies in terms of skill. Getting in the way of a puck is not a skill, just willingness.

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12-08-2012, 07:15 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Maybe it's because the 80's goalies don't belong and most modern goalies don't have enough of their resume built yet...
Actually, I'm pretty convinced that Henrik Lundquist will eventually end up being considered a Top-30 goaltender of all-time (at the very least).

But the problem with current players is that there's still something left to be written about a player. And it's not like he had some kind of memorable Cup run, which would have helped his case. Give Cam Ward's cup run to Lundquist, and I see no reason why Lundqvist isn't a Top-30 (or really close to that) at the very moment. I mean, that would give him roughly the same number of excellent season than Tiny Thompson... with a lesser team all things considered.

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12-08-2012, 07:44 AM
  #184
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Lundqvist top-30? He's 30 already, what do you think he's gonna do over next 7-8 years, win three Cups and two more Vezinas? Not bloody likely.

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12-08-2012, 09:18 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Maybe it's because the 80's goalies don't belong and most modern goalies don't have enough of their resume built yet...
I must admit, that is a very good possiblity.

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12-08-2012, 09:50 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Lundqvist top-30? He's 30 already, what do you think he's gonna do over next 7-8 years, win three Cups and two more Vezinas? Not bloody likely.
Well, he probably doesn't need any other Top-4 seasons to pass Harry Lumley in the « seasons in which he was a Top-4 goalie in the League » category, and Lumley is up for voting this very round (and will probably make the Top-8).

So... yeah, a few seasons with Lundqvist being considered a Top-5 goalie in the league will be more than enough for the Top-30. Not to mention that he didn't really had a down year since he came in NA and played his whole career with a team that was, as a whole, a middle of the pack team.

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12-08-2012, 09:52 AM
  #187
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Diachotomy

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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Maybe it's because the 80's goalies don't belong and most modern goalies don't have enough of their resume built yet...
This is a rather interesting diachotomy. You split skill from results(resume).

In terms of absolute skill as opposed to comparable skill, Brodeur is the only active goalie(2011-12 season) who would rank well with pre 1980s goalies. Rest would do well if they rate low average.

So resume simply refers to best or top X out of a weak pool.

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12-08-2012, 09:58 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
This is a rather interesting diachotomy. You split skill from results(resume).

In terms of absolute skill as opposed to comparable skill, Brodeur is the only active goalie(2011-12 season) who would rank well with pre 1980s goalies. Rest would do well if they rate low average.

So resume simply refers to best or top X out of a weak pool.
Another thing...Competition can mostly be evaluated when looking back.

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12-08-2012, 10:31 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
This is a rather interesting diachotomy. You split skill from results(resume).

In terms of absolute skill as opposed to comparable skill, Brodeur is the only active goalie(2011-12 season) who would rank well with pre 1980s goalies. Rest would do well if they rate low average.

So resume simply refers to best or top X out of a weak pool.
And it's just a coincidence the only goalie playing today with any skill is the guy who already has his resume set in stone?

Unless you made a typo there, I think you're confusing the two.

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12-08-2012, 10:32 AM
  #190
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Curious

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Another thing...Competition can mostly be evaluated when looking back.
How so? Watching major junior, university, minor pro, European or Midget AAA goalies or players and it is fairly easy to evaluate NHL potential or success looking forward.

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12-08-2012, 10:42 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Lundqvist top-30? He's 30 already, what do you think he's gonna do over next 7-8 years, win three Cups and two more Vezinas? Not bloody likely.
Honestly, the competition around 30 isn't THAT strong. Based on what has been revealed about our composite list so far, it would appear to be Giacomin/Vachon/Holmes territory. Lundqvist is already making an argument for himself as a greater Ranger than Giacomin, and it's very easy to imagine him closing that case in the next few years.

The record you're suggesting, 3 Vezinas and 3 Cups, would be the best post-70s record after Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. You're talking about a top-10 type résumé.

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12-08-2012, 10:45 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
How so? Watching major junior, university, minor pro, European or Midget AAA goalies or players and it is fairly easy to evaluate NHL potential or success looking forward.
Food for thought -- Brodeur is the only Vezina winner of the past decade who was drafted higher than the 5th round.

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12-08-2012, 11:00 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
How so? Watching major junior, university, minor pro, European or Midget AAA goalies or players and it is fairly easy to evaluate NHL potential or success looking forward.
Nah, I mean, in the historical perspective.

Somebody could have been under the impression, in the 70ies, that Tony Esposito was the 3rd or 4th best goalie of all-time, IF one considered Dryden to be the GOAT.

But then, today, we can evaluate Dryden as the 6th or 7th best, based on the fact that :

+ He played with a great team.
+ His competition was good as opposed to great.
+ His longevity basically means that he'd rank below a guy who had a longer career but didn't look as dominant, like Glenn Hall. That kindof goes back to the competition criteria as well.

Let's take another example. Let's say that, for the next three years, Lundqvist wins the Vezina, in something of an uncontested fashion, all the while getting serious Hart consideration, with Carey Price, Jon Quick and Cam Ward basically "exchanging" 2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishes (with the three of them getting a bit of Hart consideration).

Then, unexplicably, Lundqvist retires, and both Price and Quick end up splitting the Vezina/1st AST for 5-6 seasons, with both getting serious Hart consideration.

The fact that Price and Quick had great seasons probably helps Lundqvist in an all-time ranking, because he ended up beating guys that were undisputed 1st and 2nd goalies in the league (and got serious Hart consideration as well) after he retired. With such resumes, Price and Quick would end up at the very least in Top-30 territory -- their resumes would look equal or better than Giacomin's resumes, with Hart consideration to boot (and, we can presume, better competition as well).

While Price and Quick would be considered Top-30 material at the very least, that would make Lundqvist Top-15 material as well, considering he showed he was better than two Top-30 candidates for quite a stretch, not to mention that Lundqvist accomplished more up to date than Price and Quick (even if Quick possibly had the best season amongst them so far).

Hence why there are some things that are easier to evaluate. I also suspect that Such a situation would make Ward a Top-50 goalie at the VERY LEAST -- his resume would look MUCH better than, say, Ron Hextall, a who guy certainly made his way into some people Top-60... Even if his seasons in the Price-Quick stretch of dominance would end up being starter material but otherwise nothing special..

Such a situation would also help boosting Martin Brodeur ranking as well and make him an undisputed Top-5 of all-time -- I mean, y'know, Brodeur did pretty good when he was already pretty old, all the while playing behind a defense who recently had Marek Zidlicky as a top minute-muncher....

But if, past Lundqvist dominance years, Price, Ward and Quick end up being standard starting material, and the Vezina-Hart consideration ends up being splitted by 5 or 6 different goalies (in five or six seasons -- including the three guy mentionned above), then, it kinda hurts Lundqvist resume, because Price/Quick/Ward end up closer to Top-45 status than to undisputed Top-30 status).

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12-08-2012, 11:33 AM
  #194
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Cherry Picking

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Food for thought -- Brodeur is the only Vezina winner of the past decade who was drafted higher than the 5th round.
Ultimate cherry picking of data. Brodeur has 4 Vezinas or 40% of a decade. Throw in Theodore(2nd round), Miller(5th round) and Kiprusoff(5th round) who were wiggled out of consideration, the lost season, plus Thomas(9th round) and Lundqvist(7th round).

Effectively all Vezina winners from the last ten played seasons were viewed as having NHL potential. The round they were drafted fairly reflects how long they would take to reach their optimum NHL performance.

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12-08-2012, 12:04 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Honestly, the competition around 30 isn't THAT strong. Based on what has been revealed about our composite list so far, it would appear to be Giacomin/Vachon/Holmes territory. Lundqvist is already making an argument for himself as a greater Ranger than Giacomin, and it's very easy to imagine him closing that case in the next few years.

The record you're suggesting, 3 Vezinas and 3 Cups, would be the best post-70s record after Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. You're talking about a top-10 type résumé.
I guess I just don't see what's so great about Lundqvist so far. Consistently very good in the regular season, with one Vezina. Somewhat gaudy numbers on a defensive team. Inconsistent in playoffs at best. Sometimes almost feels like more hype than substance.

Should be an OR instead of AND in my Cups/Vezinas post, though.

Anyway, right now I see his resume at barely half a Tim Thomas, and Tim Thomas is no top-30 material himself. Lot of ground for Lundqvist to make up.

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12-08-2012, 12:44 PM
  #196
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I can't wait to make the case for Henrik Lundqvist when he comes available.

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12-08-2012, 01:15 PM
  #197
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I can't wait to make the case for Henrik Lundqvist when he comes available.
Agreed, he's been one of the most impressive and most consistent for quite a while now.

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12-08-2012, 01:42 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I can't wait to make the case for Henrik Lundqvist when he comes available.
Haha!

But seriously, if Henrik Lundqvist did become available for a Top-40 selection, I know what we're all going to be talking about when my list gets posted...


Fun story: I keep a really organized Excel spreadsheet of my Top-60 list, my voting for each round, our list, my updated personal Top-40 list, and the trends upward and downward for each player. Anyway, my opinion on Fuhr, Lehman, and Thompson changed a few weeks ago, and when I moved their names around, I forgot to move their birth years as well. For the past month, Grant Fuhr has been labeled as being born in 1903 in about five different columns on my spreadsheet.

So that's how I spent my morning.

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12-08-2012, 02:49 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, he probably doesn't need any other Top-4 seasons to pass Harry Lumley in the « seasons in which he was a Top-4 goalie in the League » category, and Lumley is up for voting this very round (and will probably make the Top-8).

So... yeah, a few seasons with Lundqvist being considered a Top-5 goalie in the league will be more than enough for the Top-30. Not to mention that he didn't really had a down year since he came in NA and played his whole career with a team that was, as a whole, a middle of the pack team.
Furthermore, since international play has value, Lundqvist can't exactly be hurt in that department... what with his Olympic gold, making that '03/04 WC all-star team over Vokoun, Conklin, Gerber, Irbe, Kolzig, Luongo (all of whom had decently strong tournaments), Eliteserien accolades, etc. But I think top 10 SV% in 6 of his first 7 seasons in a 30 team league and top 10 in Hart voting in his rookie year is a pretty good starting point, and he does have a Vezina... hard to peg him mid-career, but it's going to look pretty weird to me if Belfour and Lundqvist end up vastly separated after both are retired and compared.

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12-08-2012, 06:06 PM
  #200
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Furthermore, since international play has value, Lundqvist can't exactly be hurt in that department... what with his Olympic gold, making that '03/04 WC all-star team over Vokoun, Conklin, Gerber, Irbe, Kolzig, Luongo (all of whom had decently strong tournaments), Eliteserien accolades, etc. But I think top 10 SV% in 6 of his first 7 seasons in a 30 team league and top 10 in Hart voting in his rookie year is a pretty good starting point, and he does have a Vezina... hard to peg him mid-career, but it's going to look pretty weird to me if Belfour and Lundqvist end up vastly separated after both are retired and compared.
To me there is little to choose between Lundqvist, Luongo and Kiprusoff.

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