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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Adrian Dater-Gary Bettman deserves ALL of the blame

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Old
10-26-2012, 10:49 AM
  #51
Greschner4
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Originally Posted by shakes View Post
It is really amazing how people can support the owners who knowingly signed players to ridiculous contracts knowing they were going to ask for some of it back almost immediately. That is just plain wrong and for anyone to say what does it matter as they still have a lot of money is missing the point. And how is it the NHLPA who is not negotiating when the owners really have only come to the table with one legit offer? Is it really not negotiating when someone asks to talk but the other person will only talk if they are going to agree to almost everything first? These take it or leave it offers of negotiation by the NHL are bogus.
The league isn't negotiating in any real sense of the term. They've changed the terms they want to dictate a little bit, but their strategy of lockout, cancel games, pressure, dictate hasn't changed. Two things that would happen if these were actual negotiations -- engaging with PA ideas, rather than rejecting them out of hand; and offering things in return for what you're asking -- haven't happened in the slightest here.

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10-26-2012, 10:49 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I agree that distrust is growing. In fact distrust of Donald Fehr and the spin doctoring at the NHLPA is the reason that the NHL put their proposal on the internet for the players to see and why they permitted the GM's, for a short period, to respond to the calls from the players regarding that proposal.

Many of the owners have completely lost trust in the NHLPA as an honest bargaining partner, believing that the Fehr brothers and those around them have another agenda which is not about finding an agreement, and no matter what is offered it will be spun as an insult etc etc .It's all PR all the time for the PA.

It seems a lot of players are getting tired of being pawns in the Fehr's game and are losing faith that the Fehrs can or will reach any agreement but have their own agenda.
Wasn't that the reason for hiring Fehr in the first place?

Far as I'm concerned, hiring Fehr was an antagonistic move to begin with. It may be a childish way to look at it, but by hiring him it was basically "Our guy is going to kick your guy's ass". What did these morons think was going to happen when you put two monumental egos in one room?

This is exactly what the players deserve. As a fan I'm more than willing to wait out two years of no hockey, just to watch these ****ers crawl back to the hand that feeds them when their wives are no longer happy with their spa allowance.

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10-26-2012, 10:53 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
Then why don't they make a proposal with 50/50? All I've seen is 50/50 in 5 years.

And the owner say that because they have the leverage. I'm digging out the Bill Guerin quote again:

"We could have waited two years and they would have waited us out -- I would have given an extra 2 percent back to play that year," Guerin said. "When you are in the heat of battle, and you are fired up, you don't think what they are doing is right. But it's not about what is right or wrong -- it's their league. It's theirs. I feel, personally, I didn't like guys giving up a year of their career, for what? A few less bucks? Guys are making more money now than they ever have."

The bolded says all you need to know.
Yep, it's their league. And the players have the right to negotiate for the best deals they can get. And when they think that they've already done that negotiating, but the owners come back and say 'we want to change the arrangements made in our negotiations with you', in each case reducing the $ value of what they've negotiated for the players to receive... the players are logically going to react in opposition to that.

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10-26-2012, 10:55 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Never let logic and numbers get in the way of gut feelings. Its never about money, its about pride.
Pride? You're joking right?

It always is about the money. If anyone has told you anything different, you are being lied to.

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10-26-2012, 10:58 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I am sorry but a lockout hurts the league, alot. All research and any expert will attest to that.

a horrible suprise in the US when things finally opens up. It won't be pretty. Alot of people would stay at home.
What's the average NHL career, 5 years?

Several NHL players are playing in Europe, but the vast majority of them are currently unemployed, and will be for the whole season if they don't act quick.

So many (most?) NHLPA members are willing to lose 20% of their potential career earnings, for what? A game of chicken with the NHL?

What other marketable skills do these players have that will pay them $2.3m a year? Seriously? (psst - the NHL [i.e. owners] will be around for much more than 5 years)

I am sorry but a lockout hurts the players, alot. All research and any expert will attest to that.

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10-26-2012, 11:01 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Yep, it's their league. And the players have the right to negotiate for the best deals they can get. And when they think that they've already done that negotiating, but the owners come back and say 'we want to change the arrangements made in our negotiations with you', in each case reducing the $ value of what they've negotiated for the players to receive... the players are logically going to react in opposition to that.
But that's the point, they get way to hung up on % numbers instead of real dollars. They got raises every year and will continue to do so, just at a slower pace. Yet they rather not play at all and earn nothing.

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10-26-2012, 11:02 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
The league isn't negotiating in any real sense of the term. They've changed the terms they want to dictate a little bit, but their strategy of lockout, cancel games, pressure, dictate hasn't changed. Two things that would happen if these were actual negotiations -- engaging with PA ideas, rather than rejecting them out of hand; and offering things in return for what you're asking -- haven't happened in the slightest here.
The PA isn't necessarily negotiating either. They have put forward a few "responses" to the league's proposals, all with de-linkage which the NHL has continuously said is a non-starter. The one proposal they did offer without de-linkage would not change the players share in reality.

The PA is basically saying "I hear that you don't want de-linkage. So, to negotiate with you on that, I'm going to propose offers that de-link salaries from revenues."

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10-26-2012, 11:03 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Pride? You're joking right?

It always is about the money. If anyone has told you anything different, you are being lied to.
It can't be. The players already lost more if there is only a 60 gäme season than accepting the owners deal, so there's two possibilities:

a) it's not about the money, but pride
b) they're just to stupid to do the math

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10-26-2012, 11:07 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Yep, it's their league. And the players have the right to negotiate for the best deals they can get. And when they think that they've already done that negotiating, but the owners come back and say 'we want to change the arrangements made in our negotiations with you', in each case reducing the $ value of what they've negotiated for the players to receive... the players are logically going to react negatively.
Well, if the players would actually try to solve problems instead of pouting like small children there wouldn't have been a lockout in the first place.

CBA-negotiations are the only way the owners can get flaws out of a system. The players always like to say that the last CBA was "the owners'", as in suggesting that they were responsible for any fault that was in it. Yet they are also the ones who tell the owners they can't fix the problems.

You can't blame someone for being responsible for a faulty contract and then make sure he can't fix the problems.


In addition to all that, this talk about how the owners agreed to the deals before the lockout is pretty much rubbish. There was still a CBA, the teams had to give 57% of hrr to the players. You can't put blame on them on the basis that they want to make changes to existant deals, when the reason they signed those deals was the still existing CBA.

Now, Leipold does look a bit stupid for handing out longterm deals and then crying poor afterwards, but then again, those deals didn't change the fact that the players got 57%, regardless of what kind of deals where signed. The players all trying to get a huge signing bonus isn't any better really.
The players agreed to a clause that allowed contracts to be changed by a new CBA. No one forced them to agree to such a clause, and it doesn't make any sense to blame the owners for doing something that a contract signed by the NHLPA allows them to do. You can't uphold individual player contracts and then do the opposite when it comes to the CBA.

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10-26-2012, 11:10 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by shakes View Post
It is really amazing how people can support the owners who knowingly signed players to ridiculous contracts knowing they were going to ask for some of it back almost immediately.
By the same token, why did the player willingly sign the long term contract (with huge bonus money) when he knew the owners were going to ask for some back almost immediately? Why not wait until after the new CBA was signed to sign a contract?

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10-26-2012, 11:10 AM
  #61
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reading through a variety of these posts, it is clear that most on here have never bought a car. This is a negotiation, it isn't about fairness. It's about two sides getting the best deal they can for their represented audiences. If the NHL would have gotten the 43%, then so be it. If they go 50/50, so be it. Bettman is by far the best commissioner this league has ever had. He has grown revenues by exponential lengths & taken it to places it never has been before. Yes, mistakes have been made, but this guy has been nothing but a blessing to the league....

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:16 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHL has lost over 2,000 games because of Gary Bettman and his lockouts. The man is the lockout king. His legacy as NHL czar will be tied to labor work stoppages. Lockouts. It doesn't seem to really bother the NHL brass. From: @NYDNRangers
Sent: Oct 26, 2012 11:39a

Bill Daly told us a couple weeks ago this isn't about winners & losers. He's correct. When #NHL fritters away its own seasons, no one wins

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/statu...54671545696256
Lockouts are thanks to Goodenow and Fehr who was his adviser and has now taken over himself to lead the players over the cliff.

No league can go into a negotiation with Fehr without a lockout as he will just drag out negotiations and call a strike prior to the playoffs.

Fehr, along with Goodenow and those around them have made the NHLPA the most belligerent and unreasonable PA in all of sport.

It doesn't make any difference who the commissioner is, in order to do a proper job to protect the league, he has to stand up to this bunch.

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:17 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by TCNorthstars View Post
By the same token, why did the player willingly sign the long term contract (with huge bonus money) when he knew the owners were going to ask for some back almost immediately? Why not wait until after the new CBA was signed to sign a contract?
Wait a minute... Did it actually say in those contracts that the owner was "going to ask for some of that money back"? If that's the case, then I concede, and so should the PA.

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10-26-2012, 11:20 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
reading through a variety of these posts, it is clear that most on here have never bought a car. This is a negotiation, it isn't about fairness. It's about two sides getting the best deal they can for their represented audiences. If the NHL would have gotten the 43%, then so be it. If they go 50/50, so be it. Bettman is by far the best commissioner this league has ever had. He has grown revenues by exponential lengths & taken it to places it never has been before. Yes, mistakes have been made, but this guy has been nothing but a blessing to the league....
I guess I'd have the same opinion if he handed my team Crosby and a cup like he did with Pittsburg.

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10-26-2012, 11:25 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHL has lost over 2,000 games because of Gary Bettman and his lockouts. The man is the lockout king. His legacy as NHL czar will be tied to labor work stoppages. Lockouts. It doesn't seem to really bother the NHL brass. From: @NYDNRangers
Sent: Oct 26, 2012 11:39a

Bill Daly told us a couple weeks ago this isn't about winners & losers. He's correct. When #NHL fritters away its own seasons, no one wins

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/statu...54671545696256
If anyone is the lockout king, it's Donald Fehr. After his World Series strike in 1994, there isn't a league that will play without a CBA. If there is no agreement (and this is both on NHL and NHLPA) when a CBA expires it's an automatic lockout.

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10-26-2012, 11:26 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
A general rule I've found is if that you are being re-tweeted by Allan Walsh on a regular basis, you're probably an NHLPA shill.

Adam Proteau, Larry Brooks and Adrian Dater are among those that fall in this category.
Please advise who the NHL shills are so I have a balanced viewpoint. I had to look up the meaning of shill. A word that I recalled associated I thought with the carnival. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:26 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
Youre never going to please everyone, but id say Roger Goodell has at least a fair approval rating, but im not sure.
PFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTT

haha oh dear god no.

EVERYONE hates him

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:27 AM
  #68
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I say forget the NHL, let them lose another season again, and let the small market teams go under!

After the crash and burn maybe the owners of the truley successfull NHL franchises (the ones that keep the league afloat) will start a new league, give more teams to Canada and not go any further south than DC in the States.

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10-26-2012, 11:30 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Pride? You're joking right?

It always is about the money. If anyone has told you anything different, you are being lied to.
If you're Fehr its certainly not just "about the money". Image makes Fehr his money.

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10-26-2012, 11:33 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by wolffy66 View Post
If you're Fehr its certainly not just "about the money". Image makes Fehr his money.
Fehr's image is not something he should be banking on...

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10-26-2012, 11:39 AM
  #71
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Please advise who the NHL shills are so I have a balanced viewpoint. I had to look up the meaning of shill. A word that I recalled associated I thought with the carnival. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
I haven't seen anyone who spits out venom towards the Fehrs as constantly as Walsh does about Daly and Bettman.

Walsh is so extreme that I don't really believe he himself believes everything he tweets,

The other day he tweeted that is was a fact that not 1 NHL player would accept anything less than their face contract values. Which is almost impossible to know and pretty far fetched.

I haven't found anyone as brash or extreme on the other side.

Maybe someone else can identify someone who is running a smear campaign against the Fehrs.

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10-26-2012, 11:50 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I am sorry but a lockout hurts the league, alot. All research and any expert will attest to that.

Give or take this a couple of weeks, or what do I know, a month or two, but loose the entire season again and you are in for a horrible suprise in the US when things finally opens up. It won't be pretty. Alot of people would stay at home.
The more the league hurts, the more they'll have to reduce expenses, which is mainly players salaries. Their margin is globally $200M, so if the impact is greater than $200M (as a hit), the rest has to be taken out of player salaries. Even then, the owners may still want a margin before re-opening, which would mean even lower salaries.

In this context, how the players can even believe that they'll get out with a better CBA if they wait is completely bizarre.

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10-26-2012, 11:50 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
It can't be. The players already lost more if there is only a 60 gäme season than accepting the owners deal, so there's two possibilities:

a) it's not about the money, but pride
b) they're just to stupid to do the math
I'm convinced there's something else going on here. Pride may be the tool Fehr and the PA hawks are using to keep the players unified at the moment, but that's not their endgame. Fehr and the other professionals at NHLPA headquarters certainly know their math...so what's going on?

I believe the PA's goal is to get rid of the cap. Replace it with the MLB-style luxury tax. Run the numbers on an NHL with no cap - pre-2005 player salaries were accounting for 73% of league revenues. Those are the Good Old Days that Don Fehr and the NHLPA want to return to.

If an uncapped NHL results in player salaries around 70% of HRR, then the players win a lot more than the $1.65 - $1.8 billion they give up by sitting out this season. 70% of $3.3 billion = $2.31 billion. So we're talking about +$660,000,000 per season going forward. You make up the loss of one season in 2.5 years...

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:51 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by RappinHobo View Post
PFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTT

haha oh dear god no.

EVERYONE hates him
I would venture that most if not all of the NFL owners hold Goodell in a positive light.

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:52 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
Youre never going to please everyone, but id say Roger Goodell has at least a fair approval rating, but im not sure.


Things would definitely be different if we didnt expand so rapidly/idiotically in the last 20 years, which really is the core of the economic issues. That and if they knew a **** about how to properly brand the game and not have a ****ing lockout every new CBA. Colossal ****up. Get people in there that actually care about the game first and foremost.
Goodell is not liked at all. He is slowly turning the league into a video game.

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