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10/26 - NHLPA Statement from Don Fehr

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Old
10-27-2012, 01:07 AM
  #376
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
If two doctors are performing your heart surgery, do you want them to compromise on where to cut?
... you mean like former Oiler & Canuck Dr. Randy Gregg, who upon missing an open netter one night induced Don Cherry to chortle "howdya' like that guy operating on ya with those hands?".... sorry, just a little levity, carry on.

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10-27-2012, 01:24 AM
  #377
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... Bingo! Thing is, they'll be having none of that. The Engineers & Conductor are not about to take orders from the Steward & his Passengers, for really, thats all the players really are to these guys. Tourists. Here today, gone tomorrow. The NHL bank's on short memories.
Sure their business model is flawed, but Fehr with his proposals aren't solving it. He is all about "honour the contracts". It is like passengers on a runaway train arguing with the conductor to play less for tickets, because the train isn't safe anymore.

He talks about the need for a better business model, but his proposals aren't reflecting it. Did he even comment the RS increase from the last NHL proposal? He is all about the money, not making a better business.

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10-27-2012, 01:30 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Octavius View Post
Sure their business model is flawed, but Fehr with his proposals aren't solving it. He is all about "honour the contracts". It is like passengers on a runaway train arguing with the conductor to play less for tickets, because the train isn't safe anymore.

He talks about the need for a better business model, but his proposals aren't reflecting it. Did he even comment the RS increase from the last NHL proposal? He is all about the money, not making a better business.
the NHL makes money the owners just don't split the wealth like other leagues do

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10-27-2012, 01:37 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the NHL makes money the owners just don't split the wealth like other leagues do
You sure about that? I think you need to look at the revenue split from the other leagues again. And remember, NHL doesn't have a juicy TV deal to split between the teams.

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10-27-2012, 01:40 AM
  #380
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You sure about that? I think you need to look at the revenue split from the other leagues again. And remember, NHL doesn't have a juicy TV deal to split between the teams.
well thats one of the points lol
you can't compare CBAs

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10-27-2012, 01:42 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Octavius View Post
You sure about that? I think you need to look at the revenue split from the other leagues again. And remember, NHL doesn't have a juicy TV deal to split between the teams.


It's beyond frustrating that people STILL don't get this.

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10-27-2012, 01:56 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Octavius View Post
Sure their business model is flawed, but Fehr with his proposals aren't solving it. He is all about "honour the contracts" .
His position is not to solve the leagues problem but to stop the players bleeding. His employer is the players union.
Betmans employer is the owners and as an employee his job is to assist in making sure the owners are profitable which he has only been partially successful so far.

The sad part is that these are two very intelligent men who I believe could, as a independent consulting firm, make a business plan that both sides could prosper in. Too bad they work for different employers

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10-27-2012, 02:03 AM
  #383
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Fehr is arrogant ****, I hope he gets fired so there would be some process.

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10-27-2012, 02:11 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by sixgunsdad View Post
His position is not to solve the leagues problem but to stop the players bleeding. His employer is the players union.
Betmans employer is the owners and as an employee his job to is assist in making sure the owners profitable which he has only been partially successful so far.

The sad part is that these are two very intelligent men who I believe could, as a independent consulting firm, make a business plan that both sides could prosper in. Too bad they work for different employers
The problem is, that the players bleeding is tied to the league problems. As long as a substantial amount of teams is losing money, the players will be the first to feel the burden, as they are the biggest expense and the most easy to reduce. You can't easily reduce other costs (arena, marketing, ...) as they are tied only to inflation in the global market. So that leaves only the players salaries and their luxuries (travel, accommodation, support staff).

The player share is tied now to the revenue, so what is good for business is good for the players (i think that was the owners plan last CBA - they though that player negotiations would be easier this way). If the business becomes healthy, there won't be any need to bleed the players any more.

If I were the PA, I would focus more on long term solutions and not with "we want our current share" policy. Give the owners 50% (perhaps 52% the first year and 50% after that) and in return they must increase RS substantially, commit to move Phoenix in the next 2 years and implement luxury tax (like 5 mil over the cap, a bonus for bigger teams in exchange for increased RS).

In a couple of years the players would be making more than now and the league would be in a better place. Do you really think that there would be another lockout if the league was healthy?

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10-27-2012, 02:36 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Octavius View Post
The problem is, that the players bleeding is tied to the league problems. As long as a substantial amount of teams is losing money, the players will be the first to feel the burden, as they are the biggest expense and the most easy to reduce. You can't easily reduce other costs (arena, marketing, ...) as they are tied only to inflation in the global market. So that leaves only the players salaries and their luxuries (travel, accommodation, support staff).

The player share is tied now to the revenue, so what is good for business is good for the players (i think that was the owners plan last CBA - they though that player negotiations would be easier this way). If the business becomes healthy, there won't be any need to bleed the players any more.

If I were the PA, I would focus more on long term solutions and not with "we want our current share" policy. Give the owners 50% (perhaps 52% the first year and 50% after that) and in return they must increase RS substantially, commit to move Phoenix in the next 2 years and implement luxury tax (like 5 mil over the cap, a bonus for bigger teams in exchange for increased RS).

In a couple of years the players would be making more than now and the league would be in a better place. Do you really think that there would be another lockout if the league was healthy?
once the owners finally realize they are going to have to pony up more for RS, the Coyotes will be moved pronto... the rich owners do not want to give anything more to the poor and as of now the league owns the team so watch for this....

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10-27-2012, 02:37 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Roland Gilead View Post
Fehr is arrogant ****, I hope he gets fired so there would be some process.
if he gets the players what they want, he'll get a raise like Gary did from his employers

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10-27-2012, 03:42 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
if he gets the players what they want, he'll get a raise like Gary did from his employers
Considering this will not happen. I doubt he sees any raises.

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10-27-2012, 04:55 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Octavius View Post
You sure about that? I think you need to look at the revenue split from the other leagues again. And remember, NHL doesn't have a juicy TV deal to split between the teams.
Do lockouts,the Phoenix phiasco, teams in markets that just don't care about hockey further this goal? This is all on Bettman and his dream of hockey in the desert aka his persuit of the golden TV deal. It's been a complete failure. It's been years at it. Meanwhile solid markets that could contribute dollars are ignored.

The NHL is a mess, Bettman is finished. It's all over but the crying.

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10-27-2012, 05:45 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Those players have little to none financial education because their agents have run the numbers for them instead since day 1. Fehr is a master union negotiator who can spin anything into his own liking for NHLPA's consumption.
The players also don't realize that their agents interest align with the PA as a whole over the long term and not them as individuals over their short careers. The people they are going to for advice, PA leadership and their agents have a vested interest in giving them poor advice.

Don't believe me, just follow Allan Walsh on twitter for one day...


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Old
10-27-2012, 06:53 AM
  #390
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I think I get where Fehr is coming from but I'm not sure he will succeed.
He's trying to point out to the owners they have have a flawed business plan. It's a runaway train with no conductor to stop it. At the last CBA agreement they were told this would fix the problems across the board well it didn't and they train has reached the station but it's not stopping. You can slow it down but this is going to just keep repeating itself. What happens once you take all the players can give? Yes the will keep resetting the starting point and it will work for a little while but pretty soon this train is going back to a runaway mode. He's trying to tell them you need a conductor who can stop the train!
It's not his position to give the answers, his position is to point out the obvious. Stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole. These are very smart business men that don't like to be told your business plan isn't working. In fact it is working for some of the owners but not all. You know the old saying one size does not fit all. I believe he's trying to reach the owners that may not be happy with this train ride. The players will probably cave this time but if you keep on this path will be doing this again and again until there is nothing left to give. I think he's trying to get them to hire a better conductor. Just my opinion.
Indeed..... the owners believed the last CBA would be a win for them..... nothing (IMO) could be further from the truth. Revenues went up more than they could have predicted..... but the disparity of where the revenue was earned is what did the most damage. The top teams made more and more revenue while the bottom feeders continued to struggle as they had to increase spending every year just to meet the cap.

The players believed they got screwed but considering their salaries increased by 60% over the course of the CBA...... that argument is moot.

The NFL shares 70% of it's revenue with it's teams.. while the MLB & NBA are in the 30-45% range.
The NHL shares only 12%. The big 3 however have the luxury of being able to share monster TV revenue..... a pipe dream for the NHL.

The system has become inherently flawed as just spending to cap floor automatically puts far too many teams immediately into the red. I'm not even convinced a 50/50 split will solve the league's problems.

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10-27-2012, 07:11 AM
  #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT21 View Post
Indeed..... the owners believed the last CBA would be a win for them..... nothing (IMO) could be further from the truth. Revenues went up more than they could have predicted..... but the disparity of where the revenue was earned is what did the most damage. The top teams made more and more revenue while the bottom feeders continued to struggle as they had to increase spending every year just to meet the cap.

The players believed they got screwed but considering their salaries increased by 60% over the course of the CBA...... that argument is moot.

Isn't that ironic? The league thought the deal was a win....the players thought they got the shaft. The reality is it didn't help the NHL, and the players ended up with more money than they'd ever earned before. Now the NHL wants to fix things, the PA is saying go pound sand, you won last time. LOL

The PA is so delusional it's not even funny. I hope loads and loads of players in the current PA have stepped on an NHL ice surface for the last time, and that the ones who do return, realize how incredibly retarded they really are after they lose two seasons of income and come back to a deal that makes them less than anything that was initially proposed.

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10-27-2012, 07:11 AM
  #392
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
if he gets the players what they want, he'll get a raise like Gary did from his employers
He came out of retirement for this and will probably go back into retirement again right after.

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10-27-2012, 07:18 AM
  #393
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Isn't that ironic? The league thought the deal was a win....the players thought they got the shaft. The reality is it didn't help the NHL, and the players ended up with more money than they'd ever earned before.
That deal helped the NHL immensely. It saved a number of teams. Obviously it did not go far enough, but it was a great first step.

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10-27-2012, 08:22 AM
  #394
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Considering this will not happen. I doubt he sees any raises.
until a deal is done.. we don't know which side will get the best deal

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10-27-2012, 08:48 AM
  #395
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Fix the real problem?

It seems to me that the problem the NHL faces is deeper than just a deal with the PA. Other leagues have shown that they can work well with their respective unions. And almost every time they don't and do what the NHL is doing, the 'Game' suffers. Witness the recent NFL lockout of officials.

The ownership, as successful businessmen see their largest controlable expense, players salaries as the problem. I suspect that it isn't the core issue. These guys have been making more money from their respective business interests for years by raising prices on their products.

Look, YES, they want give backs from the players, but until they address the issues that cause teams to lose money, they will never solve the problem.

The PA has shown a willingness to compromise on the biggest issue, HRR split. Did that get the deal done? NO !

That seems to me to suggest that the other issues were at least just as important to ownership as the HRR split. They are clearly core issues for the PA. I don't believe that the value of existing contracts is really a show stopping issue for the NHLPA. As others have postulated here, the NHLPA is using the current contract value issue as a bargaining chip to get consessions in the other areas. That's how contract negotiations work. Issues like the length of ELC's, Arbitration, RFA and UFA and related players rights issues are much more important. And I believe they are the type of issues that the owners want to constrict also. Hence the impasse.

As it regards the need for TV contract revenue, it is important and I think that Bettman, correctly for once, has managed to get a contract with a TV network and that's the beginning. Perhaps he should be worried that a TV deal would go away if this gets to be a more protracted negotiation. Especially since the WC programming would be the center piece of any TV deal (IMHO)

Frankly most, if not all, the 'negotiating' ploys you have seen are almost classic, textbook, negotiating stuff. Including the recent tactic of 'pulling' the CBA offer off the table. It's just talk.

In order to grow the game, which is in everyone's interest, including and especially the NHLPA, (more jobs with more teams), teams have be in markets that have not been traditional hockey markets. It has worked in some areas and not in others. As it regards moving teams or establishing franchises in markets that are really able to support teams, the reasons are ownerships reasons for not doing it. They are selfish. especially since the primary reason is probably competion for HRR in their own personal respective marketplace. It doesn't have to be real, it just has to be their perception that they would lose revenue.

When and if the NHL feels either pressure from owners who aren't happy about losing $ due to the lockout, from a TV network that is losing programming and advertisers there will not be much change. It's pretty clear the recent offer of a 50/50 split on HRR was an attempt to get a full season schedule. Once that didn't work (despite NHLPA agreeing to the split) you can be pretty sure that nothing will happen until the next cliff is faced and that is likely the timing on keeping or cancelling the WC programming.

Just my thoughts from the sideline.

F1

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10-27-2012, 09:10 AM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
Isn't that ironic? The league thought the deal was a win....the players thought they got the shaft. The reality is it didn't help the NHL, and the players ended up with more money than they'd ever earned before. Now the NHL wants to fix things, the PA is saying go pound sand, you won last time. LOL

The PA is so delusional it's not even funny. I hope loads and loads of players in the current PA have stepped on an NHL ice surface for the last time, and that the ones who do return, realize how incredibly retarded they really are after they lose two seasons of income and come back to a deal that makes them less than anything that was initially proposed.
Delusional is a good way to describe it. Their salaries have increasd 60% since the last CBA they "lost" so this time their slogan is "no more give backs" and Fehr is here to stop the bleeding.....they were stupid last time for holding out and they will show how stupid they are this time by doing it again.

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10-27-2012, 10:08 AM
  #397
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The ownership, as successful businessmen see their largest controlable expense, players salaries as the problem. I suspect that it isn't the core issue. These guys have been making more money from their respective business interests for years by raising prices on their products.

Look, YES, they want give backs from the players, but until they address the issues that cause teams to lose money, they will never solve the problem.
Player salaries accounts for 57 % of the teams expenses*, I have problems coming up with any other possible "core" reason for expenses being unsustainable for a lot of the teams. If you have any ideas, please share.

*Expenses not subtracted from HRR.

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The PA has shown a willingness to compromise on the biggest issue, HRR split. Did that get the deal done? NO !
That's the problem right there; from the NHL's point of view the NHLPA has not shown a willingness to compromise on HRR. The only thing they've been willing to do is guarantee their own salaries, putting even more financial risk on the owners. Sugarcoating it by saying it could save the league money if revenues grows by x % a year doesn't make it a good proposal.

In any case, it's complete lunacy that the two sides are unable to come up with a reasonable solution. Both sides "know" a deal close to 50-50 is the likely outcome. Both sides are losing potential money right now. Both sides risk future revenues dropping as a result of this lockout. Neither side are likely to "recoup" what they lose during the lockout by a better** CBA. Hopefully they will eventually come to their senses.

*"Better" than the expected ~50-50 outcome.

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10-27-2012, 10:44 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
if he gets the players what they want, he'll get a raise like Gary did from his employers
Fehr has to disagree and fight with the NHL to justify his existence.

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10-27-2012, 11:06 AM
  #399
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Fehr has to disagree and fight with the NHL to justify his existence.
interesting that Gene Upshaw never felt that way.....

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10-27-2012, 11:07 AM
  #400
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Players are going to cave eventually and they should, Fehr is just a hired gun (jerk) who is screwing things up . A 50-50 deal is a difficult one to argue as not fair. The players as would be expected don't want to give up anything easily but the fact remains they can't make this kind of money elsewhere with just a few very limited exceptions.

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