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10/26 - NHLPA Statement from Don Fehr

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10-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
Fehr is just doing what Bettman is... following the direction his employers want him to
And Fehr gets that support by spinning facts to a bunch of high school dropouts.

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10-28-2012, 11:00 AM
  #402
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interesting that Gene Upshaw never felt that way.....
The NFL's union, has the luxury and intellect to be able to work with the sport that has the best TV deal, and the most revenue...good for their PA to recognize that the best deal available is better than ZERO...

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10-28-2012, 11:03 AM
  #403
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Fehr turned downed a 50-50 split? **** him

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10-28-2012, 11:24 AM
  #404
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Fehr turned downed a 50-50 split? **** him
It wasn't a 50/50 moving forward, it was a 50/50 retroactive on already existing contracts.

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10-28-2012, 11:24 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
And Fehr gets that support by spinning facts to a bunch of high school dropouts.
... you with this "high school dropout" stuff again huh? Is a high school diploma some sort of badge of intelligence & intellect? Some people just dont "fit in", real life starting early or whatever. Hell, Bruce Springsteen up there in your avy barely made it through HS and only did so because his old man wouldve killed him if he hadnt, kicked out of classes, transferred around, didnt even bother attending his Graduation. Would you suggest as well that Quentin Tarantino, Russel Crowe, Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Johnny Depp, Jude Law, Charlize Theron, Jim Carrey, Richard Branson, Henry Ford, J.D. Rockefeller, the Wright Brothers & Albert Einstein amongst the countless millions were/are also incapable of grasping basic economic issues as well?

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10-28-2012, 02:48 PM
  #406
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... you with this "high school dropout" stuff again huh? Is a high school diploma some sort of badge of intelligence & intellect? Some people just dont "fit in", real life starting early or whatever. Hell, Bruce Springsteen up there in your avy barely made it through HS and only did so because his old man wouldve killed him if he hadnt, kicked out of classes, transferred around, didnt even bother attending his Graduation. Would you suggest as well that Quentin Tarantino, Russel Crowe, Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Johnny Depp, Jude Law, Charlize Theron, Jim Carrey, Richard Branson, Henry Ford, J.D. Rockefeller, the Wright Brothers & Albert Einstein amongst the countless millions were/are also incapable of grasping basic economic issues as well?
So you are saying that people should dropout of highschool to be succesful.

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10-28-2012, 02:51 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think Fehr's great.
You're in the vast, vast minority.

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10-28-2012, 03:05 PM
  #408
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You're in the vast, vast minority.

I know. Being an outlier isn't always bad, in some situations.

Edit: If I were a member of a players' association and needed representation, he would be the first name on my list.

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So you are saying that people should dropout of highschool to be succesful.

He didn't say that, so why are you trying to morph it beyond the original intent?

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10-28-2012, 03:07 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... you with this "high school dropout" stuff again huh? Is a high school diploma some sort of badge of intelligence & intellect? Some people just dont "fit in", real life starting early or whatever. Hell, Bruce Springsteen up there in your avy barely made it through HS and only did so because his old man wouldve killed him if he hadnt, kicked out of classes, transferred around, didnt even bother attending his Graduation. Would you suggest as well that Quentin Tarantino, Russel Crowe, Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Johnny Depp, Jude Law, Charlize Theron, Jim Carrey, Richard Branson, Henry Ford, J.D. Rockefeller, the Wright Brothers & Albert Einstein amongst the countless millions were/are also incapable of grasping basic economic issues as well?
Forget about the phrase "high school dropout." Focus on the fact that, whatever level of education they've attained, they don't have a sufficient understanding of their own proposals to accurately describe them in public. They don't have a sufficient understanding of their own negotiating posture to realize that they're giving away more money by holding out than they stand to gain even under their own proposal. That's the definition of losing, and they don't get it. Maybe they're geniuses, but I bet not, because somehow Fehr has them actively working against their own interests.

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10-28-2012, 03:11 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Forget about the phrase "high school dropout." Focus on the fact that, whatever level of education they've attained, they don't have a sufficient understanding of their own proposals to accurately describe them in public. They don't have a sufficient understanding of their own negotiating posture to realize that they're giving away more money by holding out than they stand to gain even under their own proposal. That's the definition of losing, and they don't get it. Maybe they're geniuses, but I bet not, because somehow Fehr has them actively working against their own interests.
It's hard to ignore the slurs and expletives (filtered) when so many posters resort to just posting that over the issues/opinions you outlined above.

Food for thought.

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10-28-2012, 03:11 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Edit: If I were a member of a players' association and needed representation, he would be the first name on my list.
You like losing lots and lots of money that you'll never, ever get back.
No arguing with that!

Beyond ludicrous.


Last edited by Fugu: 10-28-2012 at 03:19 PM. Reason: watch the personal shots, no one pretends to know anything about you so show the same consideration
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10-28-2012, 03:12 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I know. Being an outlier isn't always bad, in some situations.

Edit: If I were a member of a players' association and needed representation, he would be the first name on my list.
What do you say to the fact that the PA almost certainly would have been better off taking the owner's last offer than they ever will be now?

The players have given more away in this year's salary than they stand to gain even under their own proposal. And that's assuming they miraculously get their own proposal. They won't. The league is preparing an offer lower than 50% now. The PA might claw some back, but almost assuredly will lose more in salary by the time they do it than they gain. They've basically lost the whole difference between the last two offers in cancelled games already.

That seems to say to me that Fehr has led the PA away from its own interests. That spells bad leadership as clearly as I can imagine it.

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10-28-2012, 03:16 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
What do you say to the fact that the PA almost certainly would have been better off taking the owner's last offer than they ever will be now?

The players have given more away in this year's salary than they stand to gain even under their own proposal. And that's assuming they miraculously get their own proposal. They won't. The league is preparing an offer lower than 50% now. The PA might claw some back, but almost assuredly will lose more in salary by the time they do it than they gain. They've basically lost the whole difference between the last two offers in cancelled games already.

That seems to say to me that Fehr has led the PA away from its own interests. That spells bad leadership as clearly as I can imagine it.
I know this is your position, and furthermore the numbers are easy to work out as far as loss of income if X games are missed, etc. The other items the NHL is requesting, the package deal if you will, is touching on ground the players side has deemed sacred.

Some fans may not agree with them in taking that stance, but given that its their careers and mobility/options, the ramifications must be of some significance. Just like you refuse to admit that the NHL would stage a lockout for the sake of a lockout (no necessity for it), I believe the PA isn't playing along for the sake of not playing along.

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10-28-2012, 03:16 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
What do you say to the fact that the PA almost certainly would have been better off taking the owner's last offer than they ever will be now?

The players have given more away in this year's salary than they stand to gain even under their own proposal. And that's assuming they miraculously get their own proposal. They won't. The league is preparing an offer lower than 50% now. The PA might claw some back, but almost assuredly will lose more in salary by the time they do it than they gain. They've basically lost the whole difference between the last two offers in cancelled games already.

That seems to say to me that Fehr has led the PA away from its own interests. That spells bad leadership as clearly as I can imagine it.
This is exactly what I don't understand.

Ok, you tried to get your deal, but it's failing, and now you're just sacrificing year's salary. Compromise and take a smaller deal.

I don't get it. Swallow your pride and save the season. How is missing a season better than taking a little less of a deal.

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10-28-2012, 03:23 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I know this is your position, and furthermore the numbers are easy to work out as far as loss of income if X games are missed, etc. The other items the NHL is requesting, the package deal if you will, is touching on ground the players side has deemed sacred.

Some fans may not agree with them in taking that stance, but given that its their careers and mobility/options, the ramifications must be of some significance. Just like you refuse to admit that the NHL would stage a lockout for the sake of a lockout (no necessity for it), I believe the PA isn't playing along for the sake of not playing along.
So, allow me to paraphrase, I think you're saying the PA is fine with losing money if the peripherals all work out - the other aspects of the deal, etc, like UFA age, ELCs, and etc.

But the PA hasn't even bothered negotiating on those aspects. Their three proposals ignored them entirely. The only proposals they've put forward are centered on "how much money do you pay us gross?"

Unless you're saying the "scared ground" is something else.

But one more point: I appreciate your comparison when you say the PA isn't not playing along for the sake of not playing along, but I counter that, fine, but I think the membership of the PA doesn't actually know what's happening. I think they believe they're asking for a better deal. I think they believe some things about the proposals on the table that are demonstrably false, just based on everything I hear them say in the media. I'm sure the players aren't consciously burning the house down for fun, but I think they might be accidentally burning the house down because, let's face it, the house is burning down.

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10-28-2012, 03:23 PM
  #416
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This is exactly what I don't understand.

Ok, you tried to get your deal, but it's failing, and now you're just sacrificing year's salary. Compromise and take a smaller deal.

I don't get it. Swallow your pride and save the season. How is missing a season better than taking a little less of a deal.

Are you convinced it's just about the money for the PA, and not any of the other items in the NHL's [package] proposal?

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10-28-2012, 03:24 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Forget about the phrase "high school dropout." Focus on the fact that, whatever level of education they've attained, they don't have a sufficient understanding of their own proposals to accurately describe them in public. They don't have a sufficient understanding of their own negotiating posture to realize that they're giving away more money by holding out than they stand to gain even under their own proposal. That's the definition of losing, and they don't get it. Maybe they're geniuses, but I bet not, because somehow Fehr has them actively working against their own interests.
... I see. So basically your saying that because they dont "grasp" the fundamentals & non-existent posturing and then cant actually articulate their positions with the grace of a Harvard Debating Society Member their losers. That Fehr has some sort of Rasputian hold over them; GroupThink. An In-Group consisting of Fehr & a few older & elite players who act as MindGuards in disseminating & distributing information in keeping with an agenda designed specifically to protect a few at the cost of many. Erasures. Gotcha.

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10-28-2012, 03:29 PM
  #418
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... I see. So basically your saying that because they dont "grasp" the fundamentals & non-existent posturing and then cant actually articulate their positions with the grace of a Harvard Debating Society Member their losers. That Fehr has some sort of Rasputian hold over them; GroupThink. An In-Group consisting of Fehr & a few older & elite players who act as MindGuards in disseminating & distributing information in keeping with an agenda designed specifically to protect a few at the cost of many. Erasures. Gotcha.
WHAT??? I didn't say anything about whether they could articulate their positions with grace.

I said they just gave money away in the last round of negotiations. They had an offer for $500M less than they wanted on the table. Instead, they agreed to lose $500M in present salary. AND they lost the offer. Even if the league eventually offers 50% again, they'll have lost more salary than they stood to gain. It's nearly mathematically certain that they just the negotiation.

That's what they don't understand. It has nothing to do with eloquence and everything to do with they must not understand what's going on because they literally just pissed more money down the drain than they can make back under their own damned proposal.

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10-28-2012, 03:31 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... I see. So basically your saying that because they dont "grasp" the fundamentals & non-existent posturing and then cant actually articulate their positions with the grace of a Harvard Debating Society Member their losers. That Fehr has some sort of Rasputian hold over them; GroupThink. An In-Group consisting of Fehr & a few older & elite players who act as MindGuards in disseminating & distributing information in keeping with an agenda designed specifically to protect a few at the cost of many. Erasures. Gotcha.
That's not a bad way of describing it. Goodenow did it for a year, I'm sure Fehr would like to 1 up him.

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10-28-2012, 03:37 PM
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Are you convinced it's just about the money for the PA, and not any of the other items in the NHL's [package] proposal?
Yes, because the PA hasn't even bothered negotiating anything besides money. If it was about something else, they'd have included it in their 3 proposals.

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10-28-2012, 03:42 PM
  #421
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I know this is your position, and furthermore the numbers are easy to work out as far as loss of income if X games are missed, etc. The other items the NHL is requesting, the package deal if you will, is touching on ground the players side has deemed sacred.

Some fans may not agree with them in taking that stance, but given that its their careers and mobility/options, the ramifications must be of some significance. Just like you refuse to admit that the NHL would stage a lockout for the sake of a lockout (no necessity for it), I believe the PA isn't playing along for the sake of not playing along.
I do think there are other issues at stake, but both sides are losing $ because of lack of agreement. The PA is losing at a greater rate than the NHL and even loss in franchise value will not catch up in absolute dollars to what the PA will lose. I do think the talking points for the players have been poorly selected and rehearsed. IMO the only way that these talking points would be an intelligent option is to confuse the other side and wear down the opposition. Prepare them to get the knife slipped in underneath the mass of rhetoric.

I do think the lockout was planned as much as eighteen months ago by the league. That's when the huge signing bonuses popped up. I don't think it was a secret to either side. And, I do think this plan was a result of the league gauging the players' attitude and degree of real economic problems that the NHL was facing. I think the economic side of those issues is best represented by market demand for the lesser teams and loss of franchise value than it is represented by year-to-year losses.

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10-28-2012, 03:52 PM
  #422
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That's what they don't understand. It has nothing to do with eloquence and everything to do with they must not understand what's going on because they literally just pissed more money down the drain than they can make back under their own damned proposal.
... you do understand what "negotiate" means yes? Has the NHL actually engaged in negotiations? Dont believe so. Heres' the offer, take it or leave it by 5 o'clock or see you in Hell. What part of that dont you understand haseoke? That sometimes principals trump monetary concerns? Particularly so with the Commissioner trumpeting record revenues since 06, all the while warming up & gunning the Panzer's in rolling over & reclaiming lost lands and the gains made by labour with what they thought was a weak kneed NHLPA with a full-on Blitzkrieg? League ultimately wants to Darwin labour gains. Return to the paleolithic era. Refuses to address fundamental economic issues and will simply continue to insist on rollbacks in 2017 & 2024.

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10-28-2012, 03:59 PM
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... you do understand what "negotiate" means yes? Has the NHL actually engaged in negotiations? Dont believe so. Heres' the offer, take it or leave it by 5 o'clock or see you in Hell. What part of that dont you understand haseoke? That sometimes principals trump monetary concerns? Particularly so with the Commissioner trumpeting record revenues since 06, all the while warming up & gunning the Panzer's in rolling over & back the gains made by labour with what they thought was a weak kneed NHLPA with a full-on Blitzkrieg? League ultimately wants to Darwin labour gains. Return to the paleolithic era. Refuses to address fundamental economic issues and will simply continue to insist on rollbacks in 2017 & 2024.
First off, the NHL engaged in textbook negotiations. Their red line was 50%. They saw no league in NA paying more than 50% and half their teams losing money. Players started at 57, NHL started at 43, 50 was halfway in the middle. NHL made 4 offers gradually increasing the pot for players. Players made zero offers that even accepted linking salary to revenue. So it shouldn't shock anyone that the NHL set a red line and refused to move past it. They ****ing moved plenty in the weeks before. You don't call reaching your red line a failure to negotiate, you call the NHL responsible for making sure they put out their best offer in time to save a full season.

And if the players are fighting for "principle," they're fools. The principle of what? the principle of how much money they make? So they shoot themselves in the foot and make less money to fight for that principle?? Makes no sense.

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Last edited by Fugu: 10-28-2012 at 04:08 PM. Reason: people are testy because of all the shots in total, we all get lumped in one pot
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10-28-2012, 04:18 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
So, allow me to paraphrase, I think you're saying the PA is fine with losing money if the peripherals all work out - the other aspects of the deal, etc, like UFA age, ELCs, and etc.

But the PA hasn't even bothered negotiating on those aspects. Their three proposals ignored them entirely. The only proposals they've put forward are centered on "how much money do you pay us gross?"
That's just it. Fehr had said initially the PA wasn't interested in discussing the NHL's player movement and contract limit proposals. When the NHL weaved into into their "Save the Season, but Take It or Leave It" proposal, the PA was told those items were not negotiable.

How do you negotiate on those points when the other side wants you to sign the package deal?


Quote:
<snip for brevity> But one more point: I appreciate your comparison when you say the PA isn't not playing along for the sake of not playing along, but I counter that, fine, but I think the membership of the PA doesn't actually know what's happening. I think they believe they're asking for a better deal. I think they believe some things about the proposals on the table that are demonstrably false, just based on everything I hear them say in the media. I'm sure the players aren't consciously burning the house down for fun, but I think they might be accidentally burning the house down because, let's face it, the house is burning down.
Some players do display an inability to articulate the issues. I still don't believe that Fehr is telling them where to place value nevertheless. It's all been very, very open to players.



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I do think there are other issues at stake, but both sides are losing $ because of lack of agreement. The PA is losing at a greater rate than the NHL and even loss in franchise value will not catch up in absolute dollars to what the PA will lose. I do think the talking points for the players have been poorly selected and rehearsed. IMO the only way that these talking points would be an intelligent option is to confuse the other side and wear down the opposition. Prepare them to get the knife slipped in underneath the mass of rhetoric.

I do think the lockout was planned as much as eighteen months ago by the league. That's when the huge signing bonuses popped up. I don't think it was a secret to either side. And, I do think this plan was a result of the league gauging the players' attitude and degree of real economic problems that the NHL was facing. I think the economic side of those issues is best represented by market demand for the lesser teams and loss of franchise value than it is represented by year-to-year losses.

Agreed. Everyone will lose something, but the battle is about who will lose less. Imo, the NHL knowing it will lose less no matter what, has chosen a path of 'loss minimization' over some other longer term approach that may make more sense than the short-term franchise valuations. Reducing player share and increasing RS does a little to help on the franchise valuation side for the smaller teams, but certainly less than some other system that was more targeted.

Meanwhile, were they hoping the windfall to bigger teams would simply go unnoticed? Not sure really. In summary, I personally don't like having business shut down for what seem like small gains to the neediest, which also may have better solutions if market principles are considered. My two cents.

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10-28-2012, 04:24 PM
  #425
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That's just it. Fehr had said initially the PA wasn't interested in discussing the NHL's player movement and contract limit proposals. When the NHL weaved into into their "Save the Season, but Take It or Leave It" proposal, the PA was told those items were not negotiable.

How do you negotiate on those points when the other side wants you to sign the package deal?
First off, any language to the effect of "take it or leave it" wasn't mentioned until after the PA came in with their 3 proposals. So I still think the three proposals are good evidence that the PA doesn't highly value those peripherals.

As for the peripherals being non-negotiable, I think you're incorrect. The league said the offer was open to tweaks, including the "tweak" of how to manage the $500M "make whole" provision. Fehr acted to the media like this meant the offer couldn't change at all, but I hear the league say that (especially in the context of wanting to discourage another completely delinked offer) and think the peripherals were, and are, very much on the table. Until I hear someone from the NHL say that UFA, ELC etc. aren't on the table, that's my understanding.

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