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10/26 - NHLPA Statement from Don Fehr

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Old
10-26-2012, 02:59 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by TakeYOrpik View Post
NHL has changed their proposal three times. They've been willing to make some cocessions. Fehr just isn't taking negotiations seriously.
Whaa?

I thought offering a 2 dollar bill, two 1 dollar bills, and 8 quarters amounted to three proposals!!!

What am I missing here?

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10-26-2012, 02:59 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Every single team is profitable and franchise values are at an all-time high? A mid size market team swept the Yankees and is in the WS?
Every single team being profitable might have more to do with baseball making tons more money than the NHL ever will.

And if you think baseball is the competitive model we want just because the best paid team doesn't always win, well, I don't know what to say.

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10-26-2012, 02:59 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Every single team is profitable and franchise values are at an all-time high? A mid size market team swept the Yankees and is in the WS?
True, but what happens is the Yanks or one of the other rich teams steals the players via free agency with big money contracts that the others can't afford, so the window for a team to win is very small and the large makret teams are pretty much in it, year after year...

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10-26-2012, 03:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Every single team is profitable and franchise values are at an all-time high? A mid size market team swept the Yankees and is in the WS?
How are the TV raitings for the world series, the main even of baseball?

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/...ow-for-game-2/

Shows a real healthy league growth.

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10-26-2012, 03:01 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Why is every team profitable ? (hint: massive TV deal revenue which can be shared amongst teams as well as local revenues)

That system would never work in NHL.

The NHL is not MLB, you need a system tailored for the NHL, not copy and paste from another more successful league.
They aren't, and yet somehow the players are almost paid like they are.

Like McKenzie said this morning, the players hated the last deal so much, they extended it a few years go.

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10-26-2012, 03:02 PM
  #106
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At first thought it was complete BS that the contracts would not be honored and wondered how this was even legal. Then I realized exactly what you wrote here and it was perfectly clear that this is how the system is designed and that everyone should be aware of it.
Exactly. This is one of the biggest pieces of misinformation being spread by the PA. The league wouldn't be able to simply "not honor" legal documents signed by both parties, that would be illegal and would never happen.

The players keep repeating this "not honoring contracts" line hoping that most people don't realize how patently false the statement is, and sadly, it's working pretty well.

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10-26-2012, 03:03 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Every single team is profitable and franchise values are at an all-time high? A mid size market team swept the Yankees and is in the WS?
...and the Yankees are in the playoffs every single season. Every person that has ever played baseball knows that in a 5 or 7-game series good pitching or maybe in the Yankees case poor hitting can sink a team, but over a 162-game schedule, the team that buys the most talent usually comes out on top in MLB.

When was the last time the Yankees missed the playoffs? Is it due to there superior management, scouting and player development system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honeycutt View Post
How are the TV raitings for the world series, the main even of baseball?

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/...ow-for-game-2/

Shows a real healthy league growth.
Yeah, this bubble is about to burst. MLB franchise values are going to fall eventually. FOX and the other networks that carry baseball overpaid by large amounts for the broadcasting rights. Americans care a lot more about the NFL and the BCS (Notre Dame at Oklahoma this weekend) than they do about the World Series.

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10-26-2012, 03:07 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
...and the Yankees are in the playoffs every single season. Every person that has ever played baseball knows that in a 5 or 7-game series good pitching or maybe in the Yankees case poor hitting can sink a team, but over a 162-game schedule, the team that buys the most talent usually comes out on top in MLB.

When was the last time the Yankees missed the playoffs? Is it due to there superior management, scouting and player development system?
This is another joke to me, and how people's attention span is literally at an all time low.

Going against a century of tradition and allowing wild card teams into the playoffs has fooled everyone into thinking that things are a little more even now in MLB.

They aren't.

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10-26-2012, 03:07 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
SJ is on the record saying they chose to lose some money, but could have avoided it.

Tampa and St Louis have seen their franchise values implode.

How do you pull up examples of franchise values and link it to the CBA/system if you're going excuse or nullify each case?

What has the CBA delivered then?
I'm not excluding the example of NYI and PHO per se, I'm just saying that blaming them on the CBA doesn't make a lot of sense given that their issues are clearly elsewhere.

Tampa and St. Louis are great examples, I think Atlanta is a good example as well given that they weren't run brutally but still lost tons of money, perhaps they weren't run great, but they weren't the tire fire that the Isles and Yotes are.

The CBA delivered a step towards a sustainable system. Yes, Betman et al oversold it in 2004, but that doesn't make it a complete failure.

Now the sides are attempting to strike a deal that will, at the very least, take another step towards a sustainable system.

Personally I think the owners need to increase their revenue sharing and the players need to lessen their demands for honoring contracts. The rest of the stuff regarding contract limits, FA eligibility, ELCs etc. is just fluff that will be worked out in the bargaining table, but I think the major roadblock now is that both sides have issues they're not willing to budge on.

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10-26-2012, 03:08 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Why is every team profitable ? (hint: massive TV deal revenue which can be shared amongst teams as well as local revenues)

That system would never work in NHL.

The NHL is not MLB, you need a system tailored for the NHL, not copy and paste from another more successful league.
NHL franchise values for big teams are great. Half of the owners around for the last lockout are cashed or cashing out, so the franchise value boost wasn't sustained over the term of the last CBA.

Why should using the same model this time help anyone but the richest teams?



Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
True, but what happens is the Yanks or one of the other rich teams steals the players via free agency with big money contracts that the others can't afford, so the window for a team to win is very small and the large makret teams are pretty much in it, year after year...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honeycutt View Post
How are the TV raitings for the world series, the main even of baseball?

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/...ow-for-game-2/

Shows a real healthy league growth.
Baseball owners are swimming in cash and happy. The TV rates seem irrelevant given how much money broadcasters just threw at them. Think that subscriber fees are more important than ratings, Honeycutt.


Also, the biggest teams drive the biggest growth and dollars yielded. If there IS revenue sharing, do you want the big teams maximizing revenue potential or a team that has a quarter of that revenue potential? In other words, everyone is helped far more if the big guys rake in the money as long as it's shared to some extent.

If they pocket it all, only the big teams benefit.

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10-26-2012, 03:09 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
I'm not excluding the example of NYI and PHO per se, I'm just saying that blaming them on the CBA doesn't make a lot of sense given that their issues are clearly elsewhere.

Tampa and St. Louis are great examples, I think Atlanta is a good example as well given that they weren't run brutally but still lost tons of money, perhaps they weren't run great, but they weren't the tire fire that the Isles and Yotes are.

The CBA delivered a step towards a sustainable system. Yes, Betman et al oversold it in 2004, but that doesn't make it a complete failure.

Now the sides are attempting to strike a deal that will, at the very least, take another step towards a sustainable system.

Personally I think the owners need to increase their revenue sharing and the players need to lessen their demands for honoring contracts. The rest of the stuff regarding contract limits, FA eligibility, ELCs etc. is just fluff that will be worked out in the bargaining table, but I think the major roadblock now is that both sides have issues they're not willing to budge on.
How many teams are only breaking even or hardly making a profit because they're not spending to anywhere near the cap ceiling?

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10-26-2012, 03:09 PM
  #112
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And if the big guys stop spending which it looks like the might lower revenue teams with out the big corntracts and terrbile attendence will be screwed.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseba...2014-1.4134566

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10-26-2012, 03:09 PM
  #113
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Hey Fugu, what % of revenue goes to player's salaries in MLB?

I'm pretty sure that if the NHL got the NHLPA to take a similar share, then virtually every team in the NHL could be profitable too.

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10-26-2012, 03:10 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by TakeYOrpik View Post
NHL has changed their proposal three times. They've been willing to make some cocessions. Fehr just isn't taking negotiations seriously.
Absolute LIE

There is not ONE concession in any of the NHL's offers.

EACH one sees them take on every issue.

they have tweaked their offers to take less, but they are still TAKING on EVERY issue across the board.

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10-26-2012, 03:13 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Absolute LIE

There is not ONE concession in any of the NHL's offers.

EACH one sees them take on every issue.

they have tweaked their offers to take less, but they are still TAKING on EVERY issue across the board.
saving an entire season despite losing preseason money on their end?

increasing revenue sharing?

allowing the trading of capspace so players are more likely to get the big contracts?

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10-26-2012, 03:13 PM
  #116
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Sooo tired of all this ********

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10-26-2012, 03:14 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Absolute LIE

There is not ONE concession in any of the NHL's offers.

EACH one sees them take on every issue.

they have tweaked their offers to take less, but they are still TAKING on EVERY issue across the board.
The NHL has significanlty increased revenue sharing...just like the PA asked.

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10-26-2012, 03:15 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Absolute LIE

There is not ONE concession in any of the NHL's offers.

EACH one sees them take on every issue.

they have tweaked their offers to take less, but they are still TAKING on EVERY issue across the board.
Last deal's finished, people need to get over that.

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10-26-2012, 03:16 PM
  #119
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Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie
As expected, NHL cancels games thru end of Nov. Failing CBA progress, Winter Classic and All-Star Game likely cancelled in a week or so.

Players are so screwed.

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10-26-2012, 03:18 PM
  #120
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Hey Fugu, what % of revenue goes to player's salaries in MLB?

I'm pretty sure that if the NHL got the NHLPA to take a similar share, then virtually every team in the NHL could be profitable too.

I've seen figures that say 45-48% of all revenues. One must be careful though because the NHL players get about 51-52% of all revenues, but 54-57% of what's defined/negotiated as hockey-related revenues. The MLB, not being capped or having linkage, doesn't need to redefine revenues for the cap calculations.

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10-26-2012, 03:19 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
The PA strategy is like that Seinfeld episode where George holds out for less money from NBC
This. They should've cut their losses last week, but Fehr got them to beleive that the league is bluffing with the deadlines. Problem is that days ARE going by and without the possiblility of 82 games, they lose the whole war. Period.

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10-26-2012, 03:20 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I've seen figures that say 45-48% of all revenues. One must be careful though because the NHL players get about 51-52% of all revenues, but 54-57% of what's defined/negotiated as hockey-related revenues. The MLB, not being capped or having linkage, doesn't need to redefine revenues for the cap calculations.
How many NHL teams do you think would be profitable if the PA took 45%?

Perhaps you should suggest that to Donald...

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10-26-2012, 03:23 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Absolute LIE

There is not ONE concession in any of the NHL's offers.

EACH one sees them take on every issue.

they have tweaked their offers to take less, but they are still TAKING on EVERY issue across the board.
It's not necessary for there to be "give and take" if every area of a deal is in favor of one side. If the NHL offers other incentives to the players, it will cost them money in other areas, so what is the point in gaining the 50/50 win?

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10-26-2012, 03:24 PM
  #124
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How many NHL teams do you think would be profitable if the PA took 45%?

Perhaps you should suggest that to Donald...

I doubt we collectively can teach Donald much about sports labor economics and negotiations. There's a reason he's feared and respected by his peers and those against whom he's faced off.


Having said that, I fully endorse any systems that arrives at a figure that goes to labor without artificial/mandated shares. I don't think there's another industry in the world that guarantees employees a fixed share of revenues.

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10-26-2012, 03:25 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
but 54-57% of what's defined/negotiated as hockey-related revenues.
So you're saying that HRR definition is flawed or are you saying that players should get a share of non-HRR revenues?

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