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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

10/26 - NHLPA Statement from Don Fehr

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:26 PM
  #126
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I doubt we collectively can teach Donald much about sports labor economics and negotiations. There's a reason he's feared and respected by his peers and those against whom he's faced off.


Having said that, I fully endorse any systems that arrives at a figure that goes to labor without artificial/mandated shares. I don't think there's another industry in the world that guarantees employees a fixed share of revenues.
Respected by fans? I think not.

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10-26-2012, 03:26 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Huh...that isn't possible...players would lose a ton of $ in escrow. Spending on player salaries would end up being WAY MORE than 50% of HRR.
There were times in the previous CBA that the players lost a tonne to escrow, yet wanted to keep playing on that CBA while negotiating a new one.

Why is it so terrible to them today when it wasn't a few months ago?

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10-26-2012, 03:26 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
I used to think the PA believed the moderate & smaller market owners were going to get squeezed a lot worse by a long lockout than they did last time and would push to get a deal. Well.. that already happened. The PA promptly spat on that offer.

So I simply don't know what the PA's end game is, or if they even have one. I'm coming to believe that the PA is viewing this negotiation far too emotionally -- they felt they gave up a ton in 2005 and Bettman ended up beating the crap out of them and they will be damned if they let that happen again. It's clouding their judgment; they're showing that they're willing to watch the whole thing burn down around them than "lose" again.

I don't know how this legacy of mutual distrust and animosity between the NHL and NHLPA will ever be repaired.
Maybe they think they'll recoup their losses and be better off long-term if they get rid of the cap. They're probably right.

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10-26-2012, 03:28 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Maybe they think they'll recoup their losses and be better off long-term if they get rid of the cap. They're probably right.
They would be better pff trying to get unicorns. there is no way the owners will give up the cap.

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10-26-2012, 03:30 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
Time to lock it up.


Throw the gloves right off now,go for the salary cap .

No more dancing with NHL

Why wait, we all know NHL's next offer is going to be lower......


Go now ..
Just waiting for the "no more guaranteed contracts" shoe to drop.



If they were REALLY smart though one of these groups would dangle one more olive branch by the middle to end of next week and just grab all the rest of the public opinion before they go into lock-down.

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10-26-2012, 03:30 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
It's hilarious to hear people say the players have no leverage.

1. What percentage of last years players are now earning wages internationally? A lot, and that number will grow drastically the longer this goes on.

2. Mutually assured destruction. If this goes on for 1 year, the players lose. If this goes on for 2+ years, everyone involved loses - the players, the owners, all league employees, the fans, the public, local municipalities, all the way down.

Players saw what Fehr did for MLB, and nobody can say the sport is worse off for it. It's no secret that he has the players fully on board for whatever his plan is, and he is absolutely crazy enough to drive both the ownership and players union off the same cliff together to get what he's asking for.

Edit: I forgot to explain that in #2 that it is the only way to combat the new method of owner negotiations across all sports - lockouts and deadline demands.
There will be work, at decent salaries for 1st line NHL players. But second tier players, pluggers, fighters, etc. will not find work that pays even close to their NHL rates. And they make up the largest part of the NHLPA.

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10-26-2012, 03:30 PM
  #132
TheMoreYouKnow
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My proposal has been from the start to get rid of the CBA, the NHLPA etc., just have everyone negotiate deals individually and everyone bound by the same legal framework regarding employee safety, contracts etc.

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10-26-2012, 03:31 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Just waiting for the "no more guaranteed contracts" shoe to drop.



If they were REALLY smart though one of these groups would dangle one more olive branch by the middle to end of next week and just grab all the rest of the public opinion before they go into lock-down.
The NHL already tried that and got no where with it.

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10-26-2012, 03:31 PM
  #134
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My proposal has been from the start to get rid of the CBA, the NHLPA etc., just have everyone negotiate deals individually and everyone bound by the same legal framework regarding employee safety, contracts etc.
Well if this goes like the NBA lockout, we may see the NHLPA decertify and launch anti-trust lawsuits against the NHL soon.

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10-26-2012, 03:33 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
The NHL already tried that and got no where with it.
Tried what when now?

No I meant moving in some way towards the others' position.

If you mean the NHL's 'actual offer' then ... kinda?

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10-26-2012, 03:33 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I doubt we collectively can teach Donald much about sports labor economics and negotiations. There's a reason he's feared and respected by his peers and those against whom he's faced off.


Having said that, I fully endorse any systems that arrives at a figure that goes to labor without artificial/mandated shares. I don't think there's another industry in the world that guarantees employees a fixed share of revenues.
Yep. The owners ***** regardless of the system they operate under. They *****ed in a no-cap world, and they're *****ing in a hard cap/linked world. There's no pleasing them, and giving them what they want in this negotiation won't please them -- they'll just ***** again at the end of this CBA.

The fundamental problem is that the teams aren't in the 30 best markets, and that's entirely within the owners' power to fix. They don't need the PA at all to do that.

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10-26-2012, 03:33 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
How hard is it to read one page and realize it's nowhere near what you want?
Especially when you've seen it three other times. I Think it's going to be a long period of no meetings now.

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10-26-2012, 03:34 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Respected by fans? I think not.

Who cares if fans respect him? He's paid by player associations to look out for their interests. His adversaries have a great deal of respect for him, as evidenced by comments from former MLB owners.

What you and I think of Fehr or Bettman in the end amounts to zilch. There's no reason for us to waste too much energy on it.

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10-26-2012, 03:34 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
My proposal has been from the start to get rid of the CBA, the NHLPA etc., just have everyone negotiate deals individually and everyone bound by the same legal framework regarding employee safety, contracts etc.
Both sides wouldn't go for that. Owners lose cost certainty, players lose huge sums of money.

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10-26-2012, 03:34 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Yep. The owners ***** regardless of the system they operate under. They *****ed in a no-cap world, and they're *****ing in a hard cap/linked world. There's no pleasing them, and giving them what they want in this negotiation won't please them -- they'll just ***** again at the end of this CBA.

The fundamental problem is that the teams aren't in the 30 best markets, and that's entirely within the owners' power to fix. They don't need the PA at all to do that.
Or they can just contract a bunch of teams and have several players lose their jobs.

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10-26-2012, 03:35 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
NHL franchise values for big teams are great. Half of the owners around for the last lockout are cashed or cashing out, so the franchise value boost wasn't sustained over the term of the last CBA.

Why should using the same model this time help anyone but the richest teams?


Baseball owners are swimming in cash and happy. The TV rates seem irrelevant given how much money broadcasters just threw at them. Think that subscriber fees are more important than ratings, Honeycutt.


Also, the biggest teams drive the biggest growth and dollars yielded. If there IS revenue sharing, do you want the big teams maximizing revenue potential or a team that has a quarter of that revenue potential? In other words, everyone is helped far more if the big guys rake in the money as long as it's shared to some extent.

If they pocket it all, only the big teams benefit.
I have a hypothesis in answer to your question with regards contracting rules being important to the NHL. That was dismissed by so many. It goes to the core of your issue of why it was important. Most of us know that the real solution to a healthy 30 lies in reduction in salaries plus a real increase in rev share. Possibly a modification of the ranging system. My hypothesis is that GB's insistence on changing the contracting rules was at the core of his consensus with owners. That consensus was his marching order going into the negotiation. They couldn't get a full commitment to rev share from the big guys and the next best alternative was to change the contracting rules such that low rev teams could compete more comfortably nearer the cap floor. In reality, very few teams played below the mid-point. In theory, the change in contracting rules would allow more teams to field a competitive team at or below the midpoint. This is a theory, feel free to poke holes.

I don't think it is 2 or 3 owners who run the show. I do think it is one owner/one vote. And I do think that deriving consensus from all 30 is like herding cats. And in this case, I don't think their consensus is arriving at solutions that are the best option for all 30. I think better options are out there that are discarded because of one group or another within the collective ownership.

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10-26-2012, 03:35 PM
  #142
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Well if this goes like the NBA lockout, we may see the NHLPA decertify and launch anti-trust lawsuits against the NHL soon.
Is there any other choice?

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10-26-2012, 03:35 PM
  #143
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I wonder what would happen if the league did fold as a legal entity and restart as something different (Like the WHA). That would end the lockout in a real hurry.
Legally it would end in a hurry, the layers could easily get injunctions claiming it was a sham around collective bargaining.

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10-26-2012, 03:36 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Yep. The owners ***** regardless of the system they operate under. They *****ed in a no-cap world, and they're *****ing in a hard cap/linked world. There's no pleasing them, and giving them what they want in this negotiation won't please them -- they'll just ***** again at the end of this CBA.

The fundamental problem is that the teams aren't in the 30 best markets, and that's entirely within the owners' power to fix. They don't need the PA at all to do that.
I agree... so why are we having this fight when we know the players will come out of this deal just fine?? (rawr)

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10-26-2012, 03:38 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Well if this goes like the NBA lockout, we may see the NHLPA decertify and launch anti-trust lawsuits against the NHL soon.
That is exactly what will happen, because there is nowhere else to go.

Since the NHLPA isn't negotiating, and has already lost more in cancelled games than it could re-gain even if it got the 57% HRR they are demanding, there simply isn't any other end game available that doesn't look like a devastating (and self-inflicted) defeat.

Fehr 100% will de-certify as his next step. There just isn't anything left in the cupboard.

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10-26-2012, 03:38 PM
  #146
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True dat.

I think Fehr's great.
curious - and apologies if you've stated it at some point - what do you think is his/PA's end-game here?

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10-26-2012, 03:38 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Well if this goes like the NBA lockout, we may see the NHLPA decertify and launch anti-trust lawsuits against the NHL soon.
Its not that simple. You cannot launch an anti trust lawsuit without any merit. You would have to go back to playing and then prove there was anti trust in place.

The league can operate without anti trust issues, but it will look far different from today, and believe me, the players do not want it either. Each team would have to operate independently, meaning no real NHL. No central scheduling for example, it really would be a series of exhibition games. No guaranteed contracts, no minimum wage, etc.

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10-26-2012, 03:39 PM
  #148
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So when will the posturing end? I'm guessing these two pull this crap until next summer. The NHLPA is so dumb, in the end they will lose a yrs pay and end up taking the pay cut the NHL wants them too anyway. They are n a no win situation, how long till they figure it out?

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10-26-2012, 03:39 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Yep. The owners ***** regardless of the system they operate under. They *****ed in a no-cap world, and they're *****ing in a hard cap/linked world. There's no pleasing them, and giving them what they want in this negotiation won't please them -- they'll just ***** again at the end of this CBA.

The fundamental problem is that the teams aren't in the 30 best markets, and that's entirely within the owners' power to fix. They don't need the PA at all to do that
.

I'd go a step further and add that there may not be 30 markets that can be supported by the total pie available (market potential for NHL). It's a difficult spot any way you slice it.

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10-26-2012, 03:39 PM
  #150
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i really hope that they hold a mutual press conference at some point and just start punching each other

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