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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Whose side were you on, whose side are you on now

View Poll Results: Whose side?
Started Player side, still Player side 70 23.57%
Started Owner side, still Owner side 159 53.54%
Started Player side, now Owner side 59 19.87%
Started Owner side, now Player side 9 3.03%
Voters: 297. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:07 PM
  #51
Butch 19
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I'm surprised the poll is as close as 75/25 for the owners.

I would have expected 90/10 or even higher.

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10-26-2012, 11:08 PM
  #52
CN_paladin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
I'm surprised the poll is as close as 75/25 for the owners.

I would have expected 90/10 or even higher.
NHL Players do have many friends who follow hockey as well.

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:08 PM
  #53
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Our interest in hockey brought us here, not our interest in owning a franchise, making money or being on the BoG.

Im sure most of us play hockey, or grew up playing hockey, and have little cute dreams of playing for our favorite teams and all the great things that come with it, etc.

Fact is, if we had the same lifestyle as the players do today, we would be doing the exact same thing they are now.

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10-26-2012, 11:12 PM
  #54
Butch 19
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
NHL Players do have many friends who follow hockey as well.
well, the poll a few days ago was 90/10, and the events since then show the NHLPA in an even worse light.

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:15 PM
  #55
MarkhamNHL
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on prohockey talk on NBC's website for "who do you support"

players 47%
owners 23%
neither 30%


ouch, eh Gary

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10-26-2012, 11:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the league is profitable
is every team, no, and some never will be
but that's the way the league allows their share of the HRR to be split
amongst themselves... why is that so hard to grasp ?
TBH, I have no idea what you're arguing. And nothign you said negates that fact that record revenues doesn't mean record profits, which is what you were implying.

More than half of NHL teams lost money last season. A few made big money, which is skewing the numbers.

Even if there was total revenue sharing, every team would have made ~4M, which is terrible for a 3.3B business.

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10-26-2012, 11:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
Whats funny to me is that I guarantee if every single one of these people in this subforum were in the players' shoes, we would be doing the same thing as them, and I call ******** on every single person who disagrees.
People take pay cuts all the time and deal with it. Because when your company is losing money it's either take a cut or get fired.

Guaranteed contracts have made the Players spoiled and out of touch with reality.

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10-26-2012, 11:28 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
TBH, I have no idea what you're arguing. And nothign you said negates that fact that record revenues doesn't mean record profits, which is what you were implying.

More than half of NHL teams lost money last season. A few made big money, which is skewing the numbers.

Even if there was total revenue sharing, every team would have made ~4M, which is terrible for a 3.3B business.
the league makes money.. they just don't divide it amongst their ownership like other leagues do... it's that simple.
if you are waiting for a CBA that would ensure even a team like Phoenix makes money you better have a long life ahead of you...

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10-26-2012, 11:29 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
TBH, I have no idea what you're arguing. And nothign you said negates that fact that record revenues doesn't mean record profits, which is what you were implying.

More than half of NHL teams lost money last season. A few made big money, which is skewing the numbers.

Even if there was total revenue sharing, every team would have made ~4M, which is terrible for a 3.3B business.
An important post from the Rangers subforum I think thats worth posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
At least 4 of the teams in the red aren't concerned that they are. I'm talking about the Sabres, the Stars, the Hurricanes, and the Predators. The Sabres because Pegula isn't in it for profit. The Stars because they're under new ownership and the new owner is in the process of trying to make them profitable again. The Hurricanes because Karamanos has shown little interest in whether or not the Hurricanes turn a profit year to year. He wants them too, but it isn't pressing. The Predators because they're on their way, even if they aren't there yet. I'd hazard a guess that 8 of the others are the Coyotes, the Jackets, the Islanders, the Lightning, the Panthers, the Ducks, the Jets, the Devils. The 9th could be anyone of the Avalanche, Sharks, Blues, or Wild. But guess what. The Jets and Devils losses have nothing to do with salaries. The Jets are startup costs and the Devils are arena debt. I'm not sure the Ducks or Lightning ownership care either. And the Coyotes, Jackets and Islanders have profitability issues that have nothing to do with the structure of the league.

What some people seem to think is that owning a pro sports team should be automatically profitable. I reject that notion. You still need to make good decisions, like the hiring of personnel or the structure of the lease you've entered into. Like marketing to your community, like the Predators have excelled at recently. It shouldn't be automatic.

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10-26-2012, 11:32 PM
  #60
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Frankly, the majority of the losses are tied between Columbus and Phoenix, with Phoenix contributing about 25% of it.

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10-26-2012, 11:32 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Weber48 View Post
As evidenced by locking out the players?
if the primary problem with this league is that the players earn too much, you would be correct.

but you're not.


Maybe the players need a share reduction, maybe they dont. I dont know. What i do know is that simply reducing the players share will not solve much. And a 50M increase to the player cost redistribution plan is not nearly enough to make this business viable.

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10-26-2012, 11:32 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
the league makes money.. they just don't divide it amongst their ownership like other leagues do... it's that simple.
if you are waiting for a CBA that would ensure even a team like Phoenix makes money you better have a long life ahead of you...
The league doesn't make enough money for the current CBA or HRR split to be a viable business plan. The players make too much of HRR, it's that simple. How is that hard to understand?

And I'm not asking for a CBA that makes PHO profitable, I'm asking for a CBA that makes more than ~10 teams profitable.

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:34 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
An important post from the Rangers subforum I think thats worth posting.
TBH, that's a terrible argument.

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10-26-2012, 11:35 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
People take pay cuts all the time and deal with it. Because when your company is losing money it's either take a cut or get fired.

Guaranteed contracts have made the Players spoiled and out of touch with reality.
yeah but the NHL is not losing money...

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10-26-2012, 11:39 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
The league doesn't make enough money for the current CBA or HRR split to be a viable business plan. The players make too much of HRR, it's that simple. How is that hard to understand?

And I'm not asking for a CBA that makes PHO profitable, I'm asking for a CBA that makes more than ~10 teams profitable.
well if they placed the two teams that lose the most money to canada, they will make money and the money sunk into those teams every year could go to the other teams and the league would be stable

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10-26-2012, 11:40 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
TBH, that's a terrible argument.

When you really break it down, not really. This entire thing is driven by the fact teams like Columbus and Phoenix are losing money, and Phoenix is contributing 25% of the total losses. Columbus is also in double digits. Two teams are driving almost half of the losses. He brings up valid points on the situations of each franchise thats really losing only an average of ~3-4 million.

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10-26-2012, 11:40 PM
  #67
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From what's been made public, the NHL made a reasonable offer with a reasonable timeframe to negotiate, the NHLPA came back with some half-assed proposals and has stalled negotiations. I don't really understand the players side of this other than to stroke Fehr's ego. When you look at how salaries have escalated coming out of both labour stoppages even after a rollback, I don't get their stance. The things that should matter to the PA are negotiable details to the NHL (free agency, contract length limits and who counts toward the cap). The PA is lucky they don't have binding arbitration for their CBA cause they'd be SOL.

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10-26-2012, 11:43 PM
  #68
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Correction, theyre not percentages but actual dollar figures. Phoenix at $24 million, not 24%.

Quote:
Despite these heavy-handed tactics, the players persevered and eventually formed a union to protect their rights. They have made considerable gains as a result, but the 2004 lockout, in which the owners won a hard cap on salaries and a 24 per cent wage rollback, highlighted the power imbalance between owners and workers.

The average NHL career lasts a scant 5.5 years, meaning any significant time off will cost players a sizeable portion of their lifetime earnings. In these conflicts, the power still lies with the owners, who can afford to be much more patient, knowing they have years to recoup any income losses incurred during a lockout.

The owners' statement of the problem and its solution is misleading and simplistic. In fact, the league as a whole was profitable in 2010-11. While the poorest 27 teams (out of a league total of 30) were a combined $44 million in the red, $24 million of this was lost by Phoenix as a result of a disastrous league decision to hang onto that franchise. The three highest-earning teams (Leafs, Rangers and Canadiens) combined for an operating income of $171 million.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...174001431.html

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10-26-2012, 11:50 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
Correction, theyre not percentages but actual dollar figures. Phoenix at $24 million, not 24%.



http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...174001431.html
Glendale city council must have some interesting photos of Gary and Bill in compromising positions...

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Old
10-26-2012, 11:54 PM
  #70
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People shifted to the owners because of their still **** proposal, and last ditch effort for 82. I couldnt care either way at this point, and id rather them do it right, so maybe thats why I give less of a **** here. That deal they offered wasnt that great either, and another lockout is virtually guaranteed from that in another 6-7 years.

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10-26-2012, 11:58 PM
  #71
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I wish there were 2 more options....

I started on Owners' side and currently, I hate both of them.

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10-27-2012, 12:06 AM
  #72
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To clarify my vote, I was on the players side. Now I'm on neither side. Just Billionaires and Millionaires who cant decide how to divide up their money - the money they get from us.

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10-27-2012, 12:12 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
When you really break it down, not really. This entire thing is driven by the fact teams like Columbus and Phoenix are losing money, and Phoenix is contributing 25% of the total losses. Columbus is also in double digits. Two teams are driving almost half of the losses. He brings up valid points on the situations of each franchise thats really losing only an average of ~3-4 million.
Columbus was a victim of one of the worst, if not THE worst, arena deals in the league. That's been resolved in preparation for this season. Losses due to that lease were estimated between $9-12.5 million a year. That puts the team with the worst record in the league right in line with the other (money) losers.

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10-27-2012, 12:16 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
Columbus was a victim of one of the worst, if not THE worst, arena deals in the league. That's been resolved in preparation for this season. Losses due to that lease were estimated between $9-12.5 million a year. That puts the team with the worst record in the league right in line with the other (money) losers.
Right, so like Tawnos alluded to, theres a good amount of these losses that are overblown that have nothing to do with the structure of the league itself. Phoenix is the main culprit, which is driving $24 million of the $44 million.

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10-27-2012, 12:24 AM
  #75
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Columbus was a victim of one of the worst, if not THE worst, arena deals in the league. That's been resolved in preparation for this season.
... and what a Bummer the buildings dark. Here you guys finally get your Lease situation straightened out, start to turn the corner and now this. So after years of financial difficulties & mediocrity, ownerships going to be faced with yet another up-hill battle in winning back the fans whenever this thing ends (and obviously not just in Columbus). Take longer than just a few months, a season to do so. If it wasnt for bad luck, no luck at all. Cant win for losing. Not right, not fair. So much for momentum.

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