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No More Lockout Blues! - 2012 Lockout Part 2 [UPD: AGREEMENT REACHED!]

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Old
12-06-2012, 11:14 PM
  #526
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I don't blame Bettman at all, I actually applaud him on his actions tonight.

Honest, raw emotion from someone who wants hockey to be played.

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12-06-2012, 11:18 PM
  #527
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Man, this thread is easier to keep up with than on the NHL forum. I've been reading faster and faster all day and still managed to be a one more page behind each time I moved on. That's a lot of posts.

Not liking that Chipman had his own press conference, he seems ticked too. Maybe it's all a stunt by the owners to make the PA nervous but the tone of Bettman's presser and Chipman making announcements does not bode well. Here's hoping it's all bluster.

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12-06-2012, 11:32 PM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Dont blame this breakdown on Bettman ,, Even the moderate owners (Leafs wanted this to end) have turned on NHLPA
Exactly.

Larry Tanenbaum, Chairman of the Board, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment
Quote:
"...I am very disappointed and disillusioned. Had I not experienced this process myself, I might not have believed it. Like all hockey fans, I am hopeful this situation can be resolved as soon as possible. I miss our game."

Jeff Vinik, Chairman and Governor, Tampa Bay Lightning
Quote:
"...While trust was built and progress was made along the way, unfortunately, our proposal was rejected by the Union's leadership..."

Bettman gave the moderate owners the chance to take the wheel and try things their way. I am sure they thought--ego being what it is--that they could steer this bus in the right direction.Tanenbaum pretty much said so himself. Now they've learned their lesson.
Anyone blaming the players en bloc needs to rethink this. It is not ALL the players (as Chipman alluded to), but a massive failure in leadership by the PA.
I am not sure why Bettman waited this long to write off Fehr, but it is pretty clear that he has done so now, with virtually every last owner now at his side.
The question now is: Will Fehr capitulate, sign a deal and cut his clients' losses, or will he continue to fritter away the season until the players revolt?

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12-06-2012, 11:49 PM
  #529
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Oh, I'm obviously blaming Fehr right now, but you still have to put some of the blame on Bettman for how we've gotten to this point.

It's the combination of the two of them.

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12-07-2012, 12:07 AM
  #530
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There has been a lot of ups and downs in this mess, and there have been cases made supporting the owners and the players.

I will admit I have been pro owner since the beginning. I truly believe the players have taken too much of the pie for too long and have all of the benefit and none of the risk.

However, when I learned last night that Chipman left the negotiations in FRUSTRATION, that salted it for me. This is an extremely savvy, patient, fair businessman. He methodically and impeccably put a plan together to bring the NHL back to Winnipeg and succeeded. If he left in frustration, it just shows you how dilusional the PA has become.

I almost want the season to be canceled now. I am so angry at the players. Logan Couture tried to defend their stance and was roasted on Twitter. I will unfollow any player who tries to voice his support of the PA... I don't want to hear it.

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12-07-2012, 12:25 AM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post

I almost want the season to be canceled now. I am so angry at the players. Logan Couture tried to defend their stance and was roasted on Twitter. I will unfollow any player who tries to voice his support of the PA... I don't want to hear it.
If I was a player I wouldn't tweet anything related to the lockout, but I don't have a problem with the players supporting their side. They've gone this far with the PA, they can't just turn back now without throwing the rest of the players under the bus.

They should all just avoid tweeting about the issue, but I can understand how they would want to tweet about it. They probably get 1000s of tweets a day about their opinion on the lockout.

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12-07-2012, 02:49 AM
  #532
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does anyone here play poker?

I do a bit, and in my earlier days of playing, I happened to make the rookie mistake of over committing to my hand. Anyone who plays knows what I'm talking about. Its that time that you go into the hand with good cards, and maybe even hit one one on the flop. When it finally comes down to the river card, and the guy sitting across from you bets big, just like he did on the flop and turn...but now your feeling less confident in that winning set cards that your holding in your hand. Maybe its because you thought you could scare him before he became set, or hit that flush or straight draw that you saw out of the corner of your eye, but he stayed on you.

Now its the last card, and the top pair or two pair or hell even three of a kind are not going to hit a full boat or the fourth....and he bets big, and you have that sinking feeling in your gut that he just hit that straight or that flush...

But you say to yourself...ah, what the hell, I've gone this far haven't I?

And then you bet...and you regret it the second you do.


IMO...that is exactly what's happening with the players.

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12-07-2012, 06:19 AM
  #533
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when Bettman and Daly came to the podium, some of the players were right there to watch it. Bettman looked like a bear that had been poked with a stick, and while I suppose everything that has been pulled off the table can be put back, I wouldn't bet on it.
Sully's poker analogy was bang on, you gotta think there's some players that are thinking they pushed just a little too hard at the table and now they gotta explain to the wife the paycheque's gone..

I'd love to one day hear Chipman reveal more of the details of the way things turned from positive to negative... it's like when you give a kid the big present on Christmas morning, and he rips the paper off, looks at it for a few seconds, tosses it aside and waits to see what else you got

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12-07-2012, 07:04 AM
  #534
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I find it very frustrating becuase it really looks to me like the NHLPA is simply playing a little game where they just take whatever the NHL offers, and they turn it around and offer something different "just becuase." I mean the NHL wants a 10 year deal....so the PA says we'll give you 8. Why? I mean what the hell is the reason for them to prefer 8 years over 10? I can sorta understand them wanting 5 so that they can then hold the 100th season hostage to squeeze the lemon harder (which of course is a tranparent strategy so won't be happening) but why 8? It just looks like them simply not wanting to agree to anything without a fight.

I think Fehr made a mistake yesterday. I really think the offer from the owners this week was pretty much the best they are going to do (in fact, I think it was better than most of them wanted to do). I think now the owners are going to start accounting for the HRR they are losing during the lockout. I'm not so sure make whole will be put back on the table...its always been a pretty huge BS factor from the get-go anyway. The players all knew (or should have anyway) that any contracts signed under the previous cba (whether they were signed 6 months ago or 6 minutes before it expired) were likely to change under the new cba. They signed them hoping they'd "win" in the cba and get a big payday...I just love the feigned moral indignation from the PA. "We signed those contracts in good faith and we expect them to be honored in full! I can't beleive the owners would go back on their word like this!" Lol, right...

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:50 AM
  #535
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NHLPA has pushed away moderate owners (Chipman)

How stupid is that?

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12-07-2012, 07:55 AM
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post


However, when I learned last night that Chipman left the negotiations in FRUSTRATION, that salted it for me. This is an extremely savvy, patient, fair businessman. He methodically and impeccably put a plan together to bring the NHL back to Winnipeg and succeeded. If he left in frustration, it just shows you how dilusional the PA has become.
Much as I'm thankful for Chipman bringing back the Jets and consider him a moderate I think the real kicker here is seeing what Tannenbaum had to say. Honestly players you've frustrated the largest single market in hockey - the Toronto Maple Leafs. That's impressive because all along I've been operating with the belief that teams like the Leafs/Habs/Rangers were probably the least interested in the lockout. Toronto is worth 4-5 average teams and accounts for how much of the revenue/profit in this league? Yet here we have the Leafs rep calling you out (in polite terms).

The poker analogy is great and really I think the NHLPA looked at it and saw that the NHL was at a point where they could still get 100% of advertising revenues so they felt they had leverage. Apparently calling the bluff was a mistake because it wasn't a bluff. Straight flush, whoops.

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12-07-2012, 08:39 AM
  #537
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I believe the NHL when they say this was the last/best offer. A lot of governors were not pleased with the 300m make whole. Given the response by dater saying they were ready to play on the NHL offer and Fehr had them hold out for more... I wouldn't put a lot of faith in the tweets saying stronger then ever... if you have to tell me your ship isn't sinking, its probably sinking.

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12-07-2012, 08:52 AM
  #538
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Why is it that hockey work stoppages tend to last longer than work stoppages in other professional sports? Is it because most hockey players come from middle-class families? Do they feel less pressure to agree to deals since they don't have as many mouths to feed?

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12-07-2012, 09:28 AM
  #539
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woops i will try again


Last edited by ps241: 12-07-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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Old
12-07-2012, 09:34 AM
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
does anyone here play poker?

I do a bit, and in my earlier days of playing, I happened to make the rookie mistake of over committing to my hand. Anyone who plays knows what I'm talking about. Its that time that you go into the hand with good cards, and maybe even hit one one on the flop. When it finally comes down to the river card, and the guy sitting across from you bets big, just like he did on the flop and turn...but now your feeling less confident in that winning set cards that your holding in your hand. Maybe its because you thought you could scare him before he became set, or hit that flush or straight draw that you saw out of the corner of your eye, but he stayed on you.

Now its the last card, and the top pair or two pair or hell even three of a kind are not going to hit a full boat or the fourth....and he bets big, and you have that sinking feeling in your gut that he just hit that straight or that flush...

But you say to yourself...ah, what the hell, I've gone this far haven't I?

And then you bet...and you regret it the second you do.


IMO...that is exactly what's happening with the players.
good analogy and I would like to add to it if you don't mind sully

This entire poker game you are talking about is happening in Vegas and it’s taken months now when it could have ended sooner. The guy that is playing the game is getting really focused on beating the other guy and keeping the money he came to Vegas with. Meanwhile he makes $2.4 million dollars a year at his day job back home and while he's focused on the game at the table in Vegas he is losing $80,000 a week not collecting his paycheck's from the day job.

I forgot to mention this was a buddies trip and they are all missing the big paychecks but the one guy who is leading the charge is older and this is his last time in Vegas before he retires so he has time to kill and really wants to win!!

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:01 AM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
good analogy and I would like to add to it if you don't mind sully

This entire poker game you are talking about is happening in Vegas and it’s taken months now when it could have ended sooner. The guy that is playing the game is getting really focused on beating the other guy and keeping the money he came to Vegas with. Meanwhile he makes $2.4 million dollars a year at his day job back home and while he's focused on the game at the table in Vegas he is losing $80,000 a week not collecting his paycheck's from the day job.

I forgot to mention this was a buddies trip and they are all missing the big paychecks but the one guy who is leading the charge is older and this is his last time in Vegas before he retires so he has time to kill and really wants to win!!
I absolutely agree. The analogy is a little tongue and cheek...but the sad thing is, is that it's so true it's really not that funny. I'm just shaking my head in anguish. I came online last night, after not being on at all last night really...and get welcomed with this.

It's unbelievable. Your going to continue this over contract lengths? Seriously? Apparently they've agreed to the financial stuff, which to me was a big deal. It just looks like they are sill doing this over max contract length and the length o the CBA.

Like are you kidding me? Does it have to be ten? Or can you agree on 8? Or can the players wait the extra 2 yrs? Or you could just use the out clause at 8yrs and call it even.

Does signing every 5-7 years really make a difference. In fact that part is probably on the players favor. They can renegotiate raises every 5-7yrs. I'm not sure why this is a problem.

It is appalling how much these people don't care about us or the sport that they play. It's a game that has been part of our culture for a hundred years, and all the players have to do is show up and play, and they can't even get that right.

They make millions of dollars every year...why do they need a pension plan? Medical benefits I get, but a pension? They make millions of dollars, but they need the NHL to shell out a boat load of cash for their retirement. It's called RRSP's guys. Hire a financial planner.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:37 AM
  #542
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I think that if it were strictly up to the players (i.e. a vote after each NHL proposal) they would be playing hockey by now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
does anyone here play poker?

I do a bit, and in my earlier days of playing, I happened to make the rookie mistake of over committing to my hand. Anyone who plays knows what I'm talking about. Its that time that you go into the hand with good cards, and maybe even hit one one on the flop. When it finally comes down to the river card, and the guy sitting across from you bets big, just like he did on the flop and turn...but now your feeling less confident in that winning set cards that your holding in your hand. Maybe its because you thought you could scare him before he became set, or hit that flush or straight draw that you saw out of the corner of your eye, but he stayed on you.

Now its the last card, and the top pair or two pair or hell even three of a kind are not going to hit a full boat or the fourth....and he bets big, and you have that sinking feeling in your gut that he just hit that straight or that flush...

But you say to yourself...ah, what the hell, I've gone this far haven't I?

And then you bet...and you regret it the second you do.


IMO...that is exactly what's happening with the players.
This is a very good analogy. I would just add, that at that the poker player would be playing with some sort of "expert" (Fehr), who keeps telling them to keep betting. The player, having little to no experience when it comes to poker, is going to trust that expert even though they aren't sure if what they're doing is right.

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12-07-2012, 10:52 AM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
There has been a lot of ups and downs in this mess, and there have been cases made supporting the owners and the players.

I will admit I have been pro owner since the beginning. I truly believe the players have taken too much of the pie for too long and have all of the benefit and none of the risk.

However, when I learned last night that Chipman left the negotiations in FRUSTRATION, that salted it for me. This is an extremely savvy, patient, fair businessman. He methodically and impeccably put a plan together to bring the NHL back to Winnipeg and succeeded. If he left in frustration, it just shows you how dilusional the PA has become.

I almost want the season to be canceled now. I am so angry at the players. Logan Couture tried to defend their stance and was roasted on Twitter. I will unfollow any player who tries to voice his support of the PA... I don't want to hear it.
Scottie Upshall is another clown who voiced his opinion on this last night on twitter.

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12-07-2012, 11:38 AM
  #544
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Half serious question: Why don't the owners collude, and just agree to not sign contracts over 5 years?

Obviously they're not allowed to collude, but if you don't get caught it never happened. Is it that owners don't trust each other to not end the lock out and start signing players to long deals?

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12-07-2012, 12:00 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpgsilver View Post
Half serious question: Why don't the owners collude, and just agree to not sign contracts over 5 years?

Obviously they're not allowed to collude, but if you don't get caught it never happened. Is it that owners don't trust each other to not end the lock out and start signing players to long deals?
The problem is with that is when you get a star player tht is looking for a long term place to play...see Parise and Suter. As an owner...are you going to honor your agreement or take the chance to make your team that much better by handing said star player some term.

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12-07-2012, 12:06 PM
  #546
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That's the risk involved. It would have to be an agreement that owners felt they had to honour.
If this drags on though I wouldn't mind seeing the owners agree to 6 year deals, but be so united against the players they only sign 5 year deals to spite them.

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12-07-2012, 12:22 PM
  #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpgsilver View Post
Half serious question: Why don't the owners collude, and just agree to not sign contracts over 5 years?

Obviously they're not allowed to collude, but if you don't get caught it never happened. Is it that owners don't trust each other to not end the lock out and start signing players to long deals?
Fehr's MLBPA successfully sued MLB owners for colluding to not sign free agents. Players and agents figured something was up (after years of something like the NHL-style July 1 UFA frenzy, suddenly no free agents were signing with other teams...except ones whose team didn't want them).

If, over the next couple of seasons, not one NHL player is offered a contract over 5 years, the NHLPA would sue the NHL for collusion and the league would have to pay damages. MLB ended up paying the PA $280 million in a settlement for their free agency collusion.

In fact, I'm not sure why the NHLPA hasn't sued the NHL for collusion over the lack of RFA offer sheets. I guess offer sheets happen (very) occasionally - so maybe they don't have a strong case. But didn't an owner admit that there was a gentlemen's agreement about RFA offer sheets recently (around the time of the Weber offer sheet)?

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12-07-2012, 12:45 PM
  #548
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I think the PA is going to be in for a rude awakening if the season gets cancelled. If the owners lose a season, they are going to go for EVERYTHING that they want at that point. The PA thinks the last deal wasn't good enough? Just wait.

So foolish.

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12-07-2012, 01:06 PM
  #549
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What was most telling yesterday was how angry Bill Daly appeared.

We've all seen Bettman mad, like when the True North / Atlanta Spirit deal was leaked.

But, I have never seen Daly angry.

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12-07-2012, 01:43 PM
  #550
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Players and PA are playing a dangerous game. They feel they can continue to 'negotiate' to get a better deal.

I have no problem with the league canceling the season and the players offer being severely reduced next fall. IMO, the NHL has put forward reasonable offers, in these economic times, and that's not enough for players. That's really disappointing.

Question. With a lost season, what happens to the 2013 draft? I assume there's a lottery and draft, but anywhere u look, people seem to think there is no draft if there's no cba. Didn't stop 2005 draft, so I'm assuming won't stop 2013. Has anyone seen anything solid on this?

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